Most horse shows have several hunt seat classes, the S&B plus other on the flat style classes. I enjoy watching the classes. But, the gap or white space is for hunter over fences. I know ASBs can jump, actually some will and some will not. I believe the breed and horse shows will benefit from over fences classes. In venues that can, a cross country class would likely be very popular too.
The ASB "industry", meaning no one is exempted, needs to learn to accept and promote change. We will only grow if we change and try new classes and programs. Adding a hunter over fences class does not detract from other classes or divisions.
I am a fan of Hunters and Jumpers; but do not overlook the investment in jumps, nor the set-up and knockdown time and extra ring crew necessary to stage the classes. Committing to that, I would love to see over fences classes that might encourage more participation and spectator interest.
Refresh my memory as I was not at the show when the S & B class was held - did you have jumps for that class? Bill and I were talking about your topic this morning and neither one of us remembers. We are VERY interested in this concept. We wish that Simon's had an outdoor ring for this type of class. I have not seen this type of class in person and do not know if the center ring set-up would be in the way. In realtiy, local shows need to attract as many exhibitors as possible and if this is what it takes to get 'em to a show, good for everybody. You know that you have our support as much as we can. We cannot change some things, but we are willing to work with you and those who want a venue to show at. THAT is what is going to keep the industry going. You have my personal email address and after the first of the year, we need to get together next time you are up at Judy's. Hope you guys are surviving the storm of the decade. We only got about 12 inches and then it pretty much stopped. Hope your holidays are good and look forward to hearing from you.
Disclaimer, I am not a jump course designer, and have only done a little bit of jumping over the years, but I wonder if it would save time and space to have 1 or 2 each on each rail side, and one diagonally placed between judges' stand and end of a ring. Horse goes counterclockwise over the 3-5 jumps, then reverses and repeats same jumps in other direction. Giving some flexibility in where to put the jumps and how many jumps are set up may make it easier for shows to offer this class.
Another thing that I think would be way cool (and could in turn start encouraging trainers to either start horses that have some jumping aptitude in non-saddle seat way) would be to either classify this as an opportunity class open to all exhibitors at first, and/or encourage owners and trainers to bring horses for this class even if they do not have enough riders for them all (although going one at a time deals with that problem, same rider can show multiple horses over fences), get local H/J riders to catch-ride in the class. That would in turn introduce more people to the breed, which in turn may trigger more marketability, etc etc etc.
Jeanie
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Last edited by sdlbredfan : 12-26-2009 at 01:51 PM.
Reason: fix typoe
Wendy, we will definitely get together. A great and simple first step would be simply to have the jump required in the S&B Hunt Seat class at your shows. Print it in the showbill. We'll definitely talk!!!
Dbald - I do not underestimate the financial and time constraints involved with adding classes that need extra equipment and manpower - but I DO know that where there's a will, there's a way. Beg, borrow or steal! Jumps don't need to be fancy and have "Shamu" standards on each end, or huge arrays of floral arrangements - get two simple standards and two poles, and there you have the jump that should be required in EVERY S&B hunt seat class. My trainers have several H/J trainers in their area, and some of them they work with on a regular basis. It's not crazy to think that they might be able to borrow a few sets of jump standards and poles.
There are enormous possibilities within the breed - people just have to be willing to work for it and stick their necks out for it. I've been banging this particular drum (about the jump being mandatory for the S&B class) for years. It takes people like Wendy and Bill Couch to help us along I wish all show managers were so interested and invested in what their exhibitors want. I know it can be a thankless job for them, and so it also take exhibitors, trainers, etc to step up and help.
Interesting discussion. Kim, thanks for posting the letters, for some reason my December S&B has yet to arrive -- probably the slow Christmas mail.
I like the idea of a hunter-over-fences national championship, and heartily agree that our gorgeous breed certainly is athletic and stylish enough to make great hunters (and jumpers). That said, there has been a hunter-over-fences class offered at St. Louis for several years and --rather than growing -- participation has been static and even dropped the past few years, when there were only four entries. On the other hand, the hunter-on-the-flat classes were so large (again) that they had to be split (again).
The St. Louis show committee has gone to great lengths to offer hunter on the flat, hunter over fences, and this year dressage classes, the latter two receiving only moderate numbers of entries. The over fences class, which debuted in 2005, has only "filled" one year (8 or more entries). The most recent class could have been a partial victim of the economy, and it could be too early to tell if these will be successful divisions, but those offerings -- while popular at open shows -- have yet to gain even a foothold at Saddlebred shows. It's taken some effort (and sympathetic show management) to add hunter classes at all at Saddlebred shows, and they're well-filled and successful in some areas (Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, some of the Northeast and Southeast) and not in others (Kentucky, Texas, Florida, etc.). One obstacle we have yet to clear (sorry, couldn't resist) is getting shows other than St. Louis to put a jump in the S&B qualifier. I am repeatedly told that adding this dinky jump dramatically alters insurance rates at the shows as well as requirements for staffing EMTs, let alone the extra time and effort to set up one little jump, let alone an entire course. So -- we practice at home and never get a chance to jump at a show before we arrive at St. Louis.
If the goal is to grow interest in our breed, and to partially accomplish this through more divisions that encourage broader participation, I'd lean more toward a hunter-on-the-flat national championship in addition to the S&B Classic as it specifies now, rather than going the other direction. I have heard the hunter division has had a profoundly positive impact on the Morgan and Arab shows ... my understanding is that those divisions that are so big now, are on the flat.
One thing that might be worth trying, if S&B and the St. Louis show can find a way to do it, is to offer three finals -- one with the single jump; the other on the flat (possibly replacing the open hunter championship?); and a third over fences -- and see which one(s) take off. This would not require a change in the qualifier ... those who qualify through the existing means could chose which final(s) they wish to compete in.
Personally, I love to jump -- and one of my Saddlebreds is probably the most effortless jumper I've ever had the privilege to ride. But I know I'm in the minority: many folks who are interested in the hunter division within our breed stop short of wanting to jump. I still wonder, if we were successful in getting shows to add a jump in the S&B qualifiers, would we see entries drop?
Saddlebred Lady brings up some very valid points. It takes a huge amount of commitment on many levels. Saddlebreds can jump, but they also need the proper practice and training and even some of the boarding facilities do not want to have people jumping on their property for the same reasons.
I fear that offering a jumping class at our shows would be similar to offering the working western pleasure class at shows. I have seen this class fall from 3 shows in Ohio per year to one, and the show management complains ever year about putting the obstacles up for that class at the one that is left, exhibitors come to that show just to qualify for St. Louis because they cannot do it anywhere else in our region and there are still only a handful of entries and yes there was a JUMP in the working western class this past year. But look at how successful our Saddlebred western pleasure class is.
Our Morgan and Arab friends have a very successful hunter division and they are huge and many shows offer open hunter classes, but our Saddlebred entries do not enter them, but there could be 9 or 10 hunter Saddlebreds on the grounds. I bet there are many hunter riders that own Morgans and Arabs that would welcome jumping classes too. If we could somehow band together to offer and open jumping class at these shows we may have more success if we ask for help and participation from our Morgan and Arab counterparts.
I started way to late in life in this sport to be able to jump my horse myself, but that does not mean my horse cannot jump and I wanted to give her the opportunity to do so. So I went to hunter/jumper shows. We were welcomed with open arms. Those that are interested in Dressage go to Dressage shows, those that are interested in barrel racing go to barrel racing shows, those that are interested in endurance go to endurance shows.
Please understand that I do not want to discourage ASB own me, You dream big and think outside the box, you speak your mind, I love that about you and agree with you and it would be so great to have a National Championship ASB jumping class, but I just don't think we are quite there yet. We still struggle and have discussion over the Saddlebred hunter head set, and what an extended trot should look like. We have come so far in the ASB hunt division, but if we ask for too much to fast it may have an adverse affect.
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If the goal is to grow interest in our breed, and to partially accomplish this through more divisions that encourage broader participation, I'd lean more toward a hunter-on-the-flat national championship in addition to the S&B Classic as it specifies now, rather than going the other direction.
There is nothing wrong with hunter on the flat classes, and nothing wrong with having that called a National Championship. My point about the flat class is that we already have it. Hunter Country Pleasure. So call that championship the National Championship for hunter on the flat - there is no need to create yet another class to allow exhibitors a class if they don't wish to jump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SADLUP
Please understand that I do not want to discourage ASB own me, You dream big and think outside the box, you speak your mind, I love that about you and agree with you and it would be so great to have a National Championship ASB jumping class, but I just don't think we are quite there yet. We still struggle and have discussion over the Saddlebred hunter head set, and what an extended trot should look like. We have come so far in the ASB hunt division, but if we ask for too much to fast it may have an adverse affect.
Thanks Lynn. IMO if we don't ask for it, it certainly won't arrive on its own. If we wait for a resolution to come about the hunter head set before we make any other moves forward, those moves will never be made! I don't think it's much different than any other division in regards to what's pinned - there is always debate on the "best". How about the "too much motion" debate in the CP division? How about the trot vs. the rack in the gaited divisions? How about how heavily manners should count in ANY pleasure division? There is always debate and there will always be people arguing about the best, the ideal way to judge and pin classes. If we wait for all of those questions to be settled, we miss out on moving forward.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do agree that a single 18" jump is certainly an oddity. In the jumping world, don't they have flat classes, and over fences classes? Do they have a flat class, with one jump? It seems so... arbirtrary. I know nothing of the hunt/jump world but the little I remember from it as a kid (before I realized I can break when I hit the ground LOL).
I would prefer to see a flat class, and an over fences class. Two championships. Compete in both if your horse excels in both. Compete in one if you don't want to jump.
The current method of allowing a horse to qualify in a class WITHOUT a jump, and then requiring it in the championships, makes no sense whatsoever. That's like saying a three gaited pleasure horse can qualify for the five gaited pleasure world's championship division. If the gaits/required elements are not a part of the qualifier, what the heck are those horses doing in the championship?
1) To be successful new classes such as hunter over fences need to be offered at several horse shows within an area. Having one or two classes at a single horse show will not do it. This is a tall order because many horse shows are on weak financial footing already.
2) I believe launching a new division or class requires 4 to 6 horse shows within a region to offer the division or new classes for 4 or 5 years. During a period when horse shows seem to break even at best additional financial help and leadership is neeeded.
3) Hunter over fences requires a show or several shows to partner on a set of jumps. As mentioned earlier, they do not need to be elaborate. In addition, set-up and take-down time is required. Either pre-designed course layouts or someone qualified to design a course is needed. If a horse show includes jumping, its insurance premiums are higher. You may need a separate judge and timer for this event depending on how serious you want it to be.
4) It seems to me that this is an area where ASHA can really help in an actionable way. I believe top opportunities for new divisions or classes are -- hunter over fences, pleasure carriage driving, and probably dressage.
I wish all show managers were so interested and invested in what their exhibitors want. I know it can be a thankless job for them, and so it also take exhibitors, trainers, etc to step up and help.
If the gaits/required elements are not a part of the qualifier, what the heck are those horses doing in the championship?
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