Group demand pad and action device ban

[walkinghorseowner]

If you note in the following, it is TWH and RELATED breeds.... if they ban pads, it will be ll pads period..........

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact Person: Teresa Bippen

Tbippen1957@yahoo.com

FOSH Supports Ban on Action Devices and Pads

July 15, 2011

Friends of Sound Horses (FOSH) announces that it will request that the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) ban the use of action devices and pads in the exhibition of Tennessee Walking Horses and related breeds.

Statistics were analyzed from the past three years' data from shows that USDA Veterinary Medical Officers (VMOs) attended. Over those three years (2008, 2009 and 2010) the entries inspected averaged about 50% padded and 50% flat-shod horses. Thirty six percent of the padded horses inspected by the USDA had Horse Protection Act (HPA) violations, which was five times higher than that of flat-shod horses. Of the flat-shod horses the USDA inspected, 7% were in violation. Of the total violations reported, 90% of the violations were for padded horses while 10% of the violations were from flat-shod horses.

Soring is illegal under the Horse Protection Act (HPA) which was enacted in 1970 to eliminate soring in the horse show ring. Soring is the abusive practice of creating pain as a means of achieving a flashy gait in the Tennessee Walking Horse and other gaited horse breeds. Soring continues to be a common practice in some barns and showing venues and as the statistics bear out, especially in the padded horse show ring.

FOSH is a national leader in the promotion of natural, sound gaited horses and in the fight against abuse and soring of Tennessee Walking Horses. For more information about FOSH or to become a member, please visit www.fosh.info or e-mail data@fosh.info


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[asbridertb]

Interesting that there is nothing on their website about this.

[3mares]

Wow! It is interesting. I took my mare to Equine Specialty Hospital a couple years ago because she was sore at the time. She was also barefoot at the time and the vet there specifically told me that she will be more comfortable in a pad and wedge. I have kept her that way since with no problems. It just kills me that this is such a generalization and nobody thinks, " maybe the horse is actually more comfortable that way."

[sunridge]

IMO albeit unpopula, good, it's about time. After perusing the FOSH site and watching the video of the WGC 2009 Celebration in slo-mo, if that's the only way to stop that atrocity then let it done.

Look at this clip, I mean really look at the whole picture. The horse, the rider, the tack, appliances, the body language. At 5:15 I was crying real live tears. Really.....? This is okay? The crowd? can't people see? It's has now made me so angry I'm at a total loss at who needs "a squaring up". Trainers, breeders, owners, buyers, sellers, spectators. Rodeos are more humane for heavens sake.

I needs several :margarita: 's now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWGIIoTHiX0&feature=related

[Dobilover]

IMO albeit unpopula, good, it's about time. After perusing the FOSH site and watching the video of the WGC 2009 Celebration in slo-mo, if that's the only way to stop that atrocity then let it done.

Look at this clip, I mean really look at the whole picture. The horse, the rider, the tack, appliances, the body language. At 5:15 I was crying real live tears. Really.....? This is okay? The crowd? can't people see? It's has now made me so angry I'm at a total loss at who needs "a squaring up". Trainers, breeders, owners, buyers, sellers, spectators. Rodeos are more humane for heavens sake.

I needs several :margarita: 's now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWGIIoTHiX0&feature=related

I'm with you Mary. A sicker, sadder sight has never been seen. It should tell you something when the horses do a running walk into the arena and then stop, they don't keep going like we trot in. That "canter" as they call it, looks SO excruciating for those poor horses. They literally look crippled. We had a retired big lick horse at our barn some years ago and he was crippled in his back hocks from all the years of practically walking on his cannon bones.

As for "related breeds" here's a nice blog on why ASB's are no where near in the same category as big licks horses.

http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot.com/2009/09/research-padding-and-effect-on-walking.html

Not that there aren't some things I'd love to have stopped in our breed, but with pads, comparing ASB's w/TWH's is like comparing a butter knife to a chainsaw. They both cut things but.....

[silvia]

This may be a dumb question, but why would it be a big deal to not have pads on Saddlebreds? If everyone is 'not allowed' to have pads, wouldn't that still keep the playing field even?

[janders]

Not being able to use pads might be a big deal for some horses who are just not comfortable without therapeutic pads, and some horses who don't 'have' to wear pads for comfort reasons need them because they either can't grow a foot or lost some foot when they threw a shoe. Making a hard and fast exclusion of no pads would be a mistake, IMO.
And I can't imagine how anyone would police a policy that would allow pads for therapeutic reasons only, so it would have to be either allow pads or don't allow pads.

[luvtoshowcp]

I have never seen the reason to do that to walking horses... I showed a plantation pleasure walker in my youth for a neighbor, and I still like to watch a good lite -shod class, but I can not stand to watch the "big licks". They are an embarrassment and I hope that Fosh can stop them. Love the chainsaw/ butterknife analogy, here's hoping we can get open-minded individuals to understand it.

[asbridertb]

You guys, the letter is not restricted to TWHs. They include all "related breeds" which I would assume includes ASBs. So showing videos of TWHs and decrying how they look/move is irrelevant.

Secondly, the letter calls for the ban of pads and devices at SHOWS. Not for therapeutic use at home.

It is very unfortunate that they, as usual, lump all padded breeds in with the big lick TWH, as if their stats and practices have ANYTHING to do with Saddlebreds.

[D_BaldStockings]

travesty
n.

burlesque, spoof, mockery, perversion; see parody.

It is sad that such a superlative breed is presented in a manner so far beyond exaggerated at it's acclaimed highest pinnacle. Perfect motion doesn't 'improve' after a point, it degenerates. Whether in Dressage, Reining, Walking horses, Saddlebreds, you name it.

The willingness of horses to attempt the impossible when asked or demanded never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not sure TWH presentation change would be welcomed by breed aficionados, since that very exaggeration is so highly prized. Would SB peeps react favorably to non- chesspiece headsets or horses who couldn't step over a corn-cob? Only time can tell. Change of presentation does happen for any number of reasons: 'this isn't your daddy's Cadillac'.

***

Outlawing pads wholesale would be an equally extreme reaction, as there are therapeutic and comfort issues wich are also positive for horse welfare. Saddlebreds do not wear stacks or sandals...I assume some sort of measurement would have to go in force. Really, though, the 'eye of the beholder' needs to have a different scale of beauty for change to happen...back to the Show judges court on that.

Is there a link to the specific pads and devices opposed?

[walkinghorseowner]

To those of you who have an issue with our performance horse, you may note that those horses in your "horrible" video passed several inspection to get into the ring and were deemed compliant with the law. The winners were also inspected leaving the ring.
Those horses are bred to be able to do that. In fact if you would take the time to learn the dynamics of the gait, as proved in a UT study by Paul Roberson, The TWH naturally carries it weight on its hind quarters (it is part of the flat walk and running walk). The TWH does not use it's forehand for forward propulsion as other breeds in the trot, gallop etc. But its front end basically "get out of the way". This dynamics allow for the extreme front action, since the shoulder are free. The fact that we have horses into their late teens and even twenties performing attests to the fact that this is not harming them.
Your personal taste in way of performance is not something a law can be based upon.


What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long. -- Thomas Sowell

BTW in 1988 all pads and action devices were banned and all shoes were restricted to no more than 16 oz... it was only thru a major effort of lobbyists, horses people etc that they were returned, including subsequential court rulings. They were taken by a ruling in the court in a suit of the Amercian Horse Protection Assoc. vs the USDA. It ocurred in the middle of a show season (end of march).

[Mona129]

I am sorry to offend some, but there is no reason ever that a horse needs twelve inches of ANYTHING attached to its front feet to get out of the way of its own anatomy. At that point it just becomes a perversion to everyone outside of those who are doing it.

Unfortunately, the other breeds see us as doing the same thing, long toes, heavy shoes, bungees, pads, running w's, its all the same, just the TWH people are more extreme to the point of nausea in their minds. I've had this conversation too many times with people from other breeds. So I say get rid of it all. We really shouldnt need it if we truly have been breeding a better horse all these years. Look at the Dutch Harness Horses. They aren't using action devices and some of them (most if not all) I think can out Saddlebred the Saddlebreds at their own game.

I personally would LOVE to see how the show world would shake out without action devices, heavy shoes, and pads. Not just for our horses but for our breed to put its best "foot" forward in representing itself.

[sdlbredfan]

I am sorry to offend some, but there is no reason ever that a horse needs twelve inches of ANYTHING attached to its front feet to get out of the way of its own anatomy. At that point it just becomes a perversion to everyone outside of those who are doing it.

Unfortunately, the other breeds see us as doing the same thing, long toes, heavy shoes, bungees, pads, running w's, its all the same, just the TWH people are more extreme to the point of nausea in their minds. I've had this conversation too many times with people from other breeds. So I say get rid of it all. We really shouldnt need it if we truly have been breeding a better horse all these years. Look at the Dutch Harness Horses. They aren't using action devices and some of them (most if not all) I think can out Saddlebred the Saddlebreds at their own game.

I personally would LOVE to see how the show world would shake out without action devices, heavy shoes, and pads. Not just for our horses but for our breed to put its best "foot" forward in representing itself.

Amen, Sister! I would hope though for one proviso, that a simple, non-weighted protective pad could be used if a Veterinarian's order for it was documentable, on therapeutic basis.
Jeanie

[wilkinak]

I haven't attended a FOSH show for several years; I did as a spectator when friends were showing. My assessment - These people are nuts. They are deluded well wishers who can't see beyond their stereotype of a happy horse. It appeared at the time,things may have changed, that in their minds, no horse could or should have any natural motion beyond daisy pushing. No happy "natural" horse ever carries its head up. Any horse, in their minds, that broke any where near level, and/or carried its head at or above its withers was clearly the victim of soring. Any attempt at discussion, and I made a few, was quickly and soundly rebuffed, as they were the sole arbitors of RIGHTand WRONG. They could not ever possibly be WRONG.

FOSH is a group of well meaning people. However, Hitler had the best of intentions, and look at how well that went. Well-meaning people generally scare the crap out of me.

I've said it before and will say it again. We need to go on the offensive with these groups. Our leadership has their head in the sand, and keeps ingnoring the situation. There should be form letters available on both UPHA and ASHA websites that can be sent to political leadership both protesting the expansion of HPA and educating them on the records of our detractors (PETA, FOSH, HSUS, etc).

[horseluvr]

Please check out photos of Midnight Sun, one of the greatest Walkers of all time - no stacks of pads. That is the type of TWH I love - not these travesties.

Here is link to Midnight Sun: http://www.walkerswest.com/Champs/MidnightSun.htm

[wilkinak]

:popcorn:

There will be the same 5-6 posters who will repeatedly say how horrible walking horses are; after a couple pages, it will then gradually morph into how evil the practices associated with saddleseat are. There will be some voices of reason who see the implications this has on the overall horseworld (marked by some profound PETA haters). Add in a couple of pages about why this is a shining example of why saddlebreds need to ditch saddleseat and go sport horse. It will finally close out after about 25 pages with some folks saying "we don't need to worry, they bring this up every year, it won't really affect us"

[SmartAlex]

This may be a dumb question, but why would it be a big deal to not have pads on Saddlebreds? If everyone is 'not allowed' to have pads, wouldn't that still keep the playing field even?

Not being able to use pads might be a big deal for some horses who are just not comfortable without therapeutic pads, and some horses who don't 'have' to wear pads for comfort reasons need them because they either can't grow a foot or lost some foot when they threw a shoe. Making a hard and fast exclusion of no pads would be a mistake, IMO..

And what about horses that grow all heel on one hoof, and all toe on the other? Sometimes the way they stand grazing alone can create two wildly different front hooves. Should those otherwise athletic and talented horses be pasture ornaments because they can't travel sound with two different length legs?


As for the big lick horses... I don't care if they traveled like that the day they were born, I still don't care for it. Give me an old fashioned, downhill show walker from the 1950s or before. Those looked like fun.

[Mona129]

:popcorn:

There will be the same 5-6 posters who will repeatedly say how horrible walking horses are; after a couple pages, it will then gradually morph into how evil the practices associated with saddleseat are. There will be some voices of reason who see the implications this has on the overall horseworld (marked by some profound PETA haters). Add in a couple of pages about why this is a shining example of why saddlebreds need to ditch saddleseat and go sport horse. It will finally close out after about 25 pages with some folks saying "we don't need to worry, they bring this up every year, it won't really affect us"

I do beleive you are on to something here. I'll check back in ten pages, we should be about at or a little before the ditch saddleseat argument and since I'm a sporthorse person, thats where I'm sure I'll have something to say. However and this is a big one... I got my start in asb's in the show world and I love me a high headed chess piece necked slick rackin sunofagun, just can't ride one worth a crap, even tho the Wallen brothers tried and I had one of the best in equitation to learn from. So these great horses adapted to what I do best :)
I DO hope you feel better for having said what you did...doubt it will change anything about the next twenty pages But....better to get it off your chest and it sure gave me a right good chuckle too.

And what about horses that grow all heel on one hoof, and all toe on the other? Sometimes the way they stand grazing alone can create two wildly different front hooves. Should those otherwise athletic and talented horses be pasture ornaments because they can't travel sound with two different length legs?


As for the big lick horses... I don't care if they traveled like that the day they were born, I still don't care for it. Give me an old fashioned, downhill show walker from the 1950s or before. Those looked like fun.

You make an excellent point and therapeutic shoeing has its place! definitely. full stop.
Is there a functionality being overlooked in the breeding shed? *pondering*

[wilkinak]

This may be a dumb question, but why would it be a big deal to not have pads on Saddlebreds? If everyone is 'not allowed' to have pads, wouldn't that still keep the playing field even?

I don't know what the shows in Austraila look like, but one can watch a country pleasure class and see that whether or not a horse has pads, has little to do with leveling the playing field. The range of stock shown in those classes is beyond belief, going from low end obviously back yard horses to high end obviously with a trainer. At most shows, someone showing out of their backyard is still not competitive with a horse at a trainer, even though they both don't have pads. Ironically, many better moving horses are in the CP classes because of how well they move w/o pads, compared to what is in a SP class where pads are allowed.

The quality/availablity of blacksmiths is more of an issue wrt leveling the playing field. If you don't have a competant farrier around, it is going to be harder to be competitive with those who do, no matter how good/bad your horse is. There is more to show shoeing than just slapping on a pad and a shoe.

Besides, leveling the playing field is a whole different conversation than horse protection. Whether the minor leaguers should be playing in the majors has little to do with shoeing.


And Mona --
It did make me feel better to vent early.

[asbridertb]

And what about horses that grow all heel on one hoof, and all toe on the other? Sometimes the way they stand grazing alone can create two wildly different front hooves. Should those otherwise athletic and talented horses be pasture ornaments because they can't travel sound with two different length legs?

In any other discipline where movement is paramount and shoeing is not used to correct conformational flaws, this type of horse would not be used for competition. This would be a cull. In our world, we fix it with shoes and pads, and it shows, and wins, and breeds, and is exemplified as a star, and the genetic deficincies get passed on (just like dished hooves and low backs).

IMHO, a horse with THIS bad of a flaw, who cannot be stood up evenly on normal length feet, should not be showing (in ANY discipline). We are supposed to show our BEST horses, those most close to ideal. Not the flawed ones.

Fix it so the horse is sound, with pads or without, but don't show it. Enjoy it at home. And then - a rule of this sort wouldn't matter! You can do what you want at home.

[silvia]

We don't really have the farriers in Australia to shoe saddle seat horses, anything done in a saddle seat fashion here, the most you get is a long foot and a shoe. But then we don't really have saddle seat in the country so it's a bit of a moot point.

I surveyed a bunch of local horse people in regards to what they would feel comfortable seeing on a shoe horse's hoof.

The thing that struck me was that they generally simply don't see a need for a long foot and a pad. The thought was, if they are meant to travel high, why not breed them to travel high? If they are pretty movers, they are just as pretty without a shoe.

Now I understand that shoeing is a help to many a horse in saddle seat, it makes it easier and less tiring for them, and that the pads help the farrier in maintaining a shorter and therefore healthier hoof and keeping the length in the package rather than the hoof capsule. So I have no issue with it.

However looking at the above two paragraphs, and looking at some of the recent show horses with incredibly long, long feet and huge pad packages - on Saddlebreds - it certainly makes me wonder if America has forgotten when to say enough.

I have no doubt that as far as the OP goes, they intend to push for the Saddlebred pads to go as well. I don't think anyone can look them in the eye and say the pads are therapeutic when they are such big packages on some of the show horses.

[attafox]

Yes - but hunters, QH and race horses also get pads. NOT action oriented, but for the comfort of the horse. Every farrier I know in So. Cal. has pads on his truck for when they are needed.

[SmartAlex]

In any other discipline where movement is paramount and shoeing is not used to correct conformational flaws, this type of horse would not be used for competition. This would be a cull. In our world, we fix it with shoes and pads, and it shows, and wins, and breeds, and is exemplified as a star, and the genetic deficincies get passed on (just like dished hooves and low backs).

IMHO, a horse with THIS bad of a flaw, who cannot be stood up evenly on normal length feet, should not be showing (in ANY discipline). We are supposed to show our BEST horses, those most close to ideal. Not the flawed ones.

Fix it so the horse is sound, with pads or without, but don't show it. Enjoy it at home. And then - a rule of this sort wouldn't matter! You can do what you want at home.

I'm not talking about genetic club foot. I'm talking about mechanical force or metabolic caused irregularities. There are a WHOLE BUNCH of flawed horses making a living in the pleasure and academy ranks, not to mention open divisions. A lot of them would do better in CP, but sadly, a CP horse CAN'T even have a degree pad.

You cull every horse that needs corrective shoeing at some stage in its life, and you wont even have a breed left. The at home crowd has already absorbed about as many of the less than perfect examples as we can ride in a day. And eating them has proved pretty unpopular around here.

[SmartAlex]

Yes - but hunters, QH and race horses also get pads. NOT action oriented, but for the comfort of the horse. Every farrier I know in So. Cal. has pads on his truck for when they are needed.

The first horse I ever had to pad was an Appaloosa.

[SmartAlex]

I have no doubt that as far as the OP goes, they intend to push for the Saddlebred pads to go as well. I don't think anyone can look them in the eye and say the pads are therapeutic when they are such big packages on some of the show horses.

Then they should push for length and weight restrictions. Not complete banning.

[wilkinak]

I do think that toes have gotten a bit long. I don't think that I want the government or a bunch of well meaning, but ill informed people, possibly with a larger agenda, making that decision for me. I think there is plenty for the government to do without being involved in what I eat, what doctors I see, or how I shoe my horse.


I've seen horses used in other disciplines, and there are horses with less than perfect feet used in competition in other disciplines. The notion that corrective shoeing is limited to saddleseat is ludicrous. Totilas was shown with, or has at least worn, heart-bar shoes, should he be culled from the dressage ranks? Hunters are shown in hack classes with their shoes pulled to lower their movement. The only competitors who don't use a farrier that will help maximize their performance are the ones who don't know it can be done.

[wilkinak]

Yes - but hunters, QH and race horses also get pads. NOT action oriented, but for the comfort of the horse. Every farrier I know in So. Cal. has pads on his truck for when they are needed.

Almost all shoeing on standardbreds is action/motion oriented, especially trotters. The goal is a different look than saddlebreds, but they are every bit as aware of the effects of weight, angles and shoes on a horse's gait.

[ASB Stars]

Yes - but hunters, QH and race horses also get pads. NOT action oriented, but for the comfort of the horse. Every farrier I know in So. Cal. has pads on his truck for when they are needed.

We do a lot of pour in pads, in this area. They do not add to the length of the foot, yet they offer wonderful protection. I would think this could be a terrific option for horses needing some help.

[luvtoshowcp]

"where movement is paramount and shoeing is not used to correct conformational flaws, this type of horse would not be used for competition. This would be a cull."
Such an excellent point, and while I'm on this particular soap box... May I remind readers that as we wonder and worry how we can ever show w/o pads and wedges... there is a whole movement out there gaining momentum to do away w/ shoes, period. I believe the next decades are going to be periods of constant change to our preconceived notions of horse care and training. So much is coming out of universitys about behavioral and locomotion studies, it is exciting to some and terrifying to others.

[ASB Stars]

Then they should push for length and weight restrictions. Not complete banning.

Agreed.

However, I think that taking away the ability to put some hellacious foot on a horse levels the playing field. There will be those horses, going in a shorter foot, that can still break well above level- and then, there will be those who can't. Pretty simple. I am one of those who is just aghasted (COTH term) by the length of foot, and packages, that are on some of these horses. Let's let the talent of the horse, and their trainer, shine- not use mechanical means.

[SmartAlex]

May I remind readers that as we wonder and worry how we can ever show w/o pads and wedges... there is a whole movement out there gaining momentum to do away w/ shoes, period.

My own horse (hunter pleasure type) only needs (and wears) shoes in front from June through September when the ground is dry and hard, and his hoof wears faster than it grows. But I don't think there will ever be a day when all shoes are done away with. period. on either performance horses or pasture horses. I know my horse can't be without them 365 days, even on pasture, and he has very very very good feet.

[asbridertb]

Agreed.

However, I think that taking away the ability to put some hellacious foot on a horse levels the playing field. There will be those horses, going in a shorter foot, that can still break well above level- and then, there will be those who can't. Pretty simple. I am one of those who is just aghasted (COTH term) by the length of foot, and packages, that are on some of these horses. Let's let the talent of the horse, and their trainer, shine- not use mechanical means.

I agree with Stars and Smart Alex.

I'm absolutely not in favor of banning pads and action devices at shows, or anywhere. But LIMITING the length of hoof and weight of shoe/pad should definitely be a consideration. Not a crazy short/light limit, but something akin to the Arabian rules, possibly based on horse size? I don't know...

I also believe that a talented horse should not NEED long feet/heavy shoes/stacks of pads to perform. If they were "bred to do this," as we so often brag, let's let them do it. Are we breeding for horses who can grow a long foot and carry a heavy shoe, or are we breeding for horses who can trot above level barefoot? (Not advocating barefoot LOL)

I see so many breeders and trainers bragging about a horse for sale in a video or in an ad saying "wearing only plates" or "barefoot behind." OK wow. That's awesome. But if he's so talented, why stack him up later??? :blink:

[SmartAlex]

Are we breeding for horses who can grow a long foot and carry a heavy shoe, or are we breeding for horses who can trot above level barefoot? (Not advocating barefoot LOL)

I see so many breeders and trainers bragging about a horse for sale in a video or in an ad saying "wearing only plates" or "barefoot behind." OK wow. That's awesome. But if he's so talented, why stack him up later??? :blink:

Amen Amen Amen.

A few years ago, someone posted photos on here of their young three gaited or park prospect, and the horse was going way above level barefoot and chains. My first thought was "Gee, too bad the shoes are going on."

I remember watching Cameo's Angel Wings win, and go like a freak in almost no shoe at all. The good ones go light.

[3mares]

I agree with a lot of the comments here about putting restrictions on the length and weight, etc. As I stated in my earlier post, my mare is barefoot half the year and has a pad and wedge the other half. She is barefoot behind. Even with her pads and wedges, I go to the shows and see WAY bigger packages on a lot of the horses. My horse trots the same with or without her shoes, she is just more sure-footed with them. So, I just look and wonder why so many have so much shoe. I am from the Arab world and there were rules on length and weight, so I am used to that.

[SaddlebredMom]

I haven't attended a FOSH show for several years; I did as a spectator when friends were showing. My assessment - These people are nuts. They are deluded well wishers who can't see beyond their stereotype of a happy horse. It appeared at the time,things may have changed, that in their minds, no horse could or should have any natural motion beyond daisy pushing. No happy "natural" horse ever carries its head up. Any horse, in their minds, that broke any where near level, and/or carried its head at or above its withers was clearly the victim of soring. Any attempt at discussion, and I made a few, was quickly and soundly rebuffed, as they were the sole arbitors of RIGHTand WRONG. They could not ever possibly be WRONG.

FOSH is a group of well meaning people. However, Hitler had the best of intentions, and look at how well that went. Well-meaning people generally scare the crap out of me.

I've said it before and will say it again. We need to go on the offensive with these groups. Our leadership has their head in the sand, and keeps ingnoring the situation. There should be form letters available on both UPHA and ASHA websites that can be sent to political leadership both protesting the expansion of HPA and educating them on the records of our detractors (PETA, FOSH, HSUS, etc).

^^ :thumb: What wilkinak said. FOSH is as out there as PETA and HSUS, and you can't argue, or rationalize, with a crazy person.

I agree with those objecting to a flat out ban on pads as it eliminates their being used for what they are actually intended for - to support the hoof of the horse on those whose conformation dictates a need for it. A "happy medium", if there is/can be such a thing with this issue, would be a toe length and shoe weight restriction (and NO, I'm not promoting that; this is just for purposes of discussion) - the Arabs have it already, and that works just fine.

PS - I also agree with wilkinak about the time line of this discussion and await the arrival of the anticipated discourse on the ensuing pages . . . :popcorn:

[3mares]

PS - I also agree with wilkinak about the time line of this discussion and await the arrival of the anticipated discourse on the ensuing pages . . . :popcorn:

I also agree with this. It really made me laugh this morning and it really is true.

[walkinghorseowner]

There are length and weight restrictions... the build up cannot be more that 50% of the natural foot... most walking horses have a 4 inch natural foot.

[asbridertb]

There are length and weight restrictions... the build up cannot be more that 50% of the natural foot... most walking horses have a 4 inch natural foot.

Yep. And 2" of pad at the toe is ridiculous. Not to mention the four pound shoes - many times even on the "flat shod" horses!

Even well padded ASBs have maybe 1/4" pad at the toe, more at the heel, and maybe 24-28 oz shoes. You NEVER see them at the extremes as found in the big lick ring.

[FoxyFizz]

Yep. And 2" of pad at the toe is ridiculous. Not to mention the four pound shoes - many times even on the "flat shod" horses!

Even well padded ASBs have maybe 1/4" pad at the toe, more at the heel, and maybe 24-28 oz shoes. You NEVER see them at the extremes as found in the big lick ring.

While I agree with you on the rest of your posts, sadly there are those extremes in the ASB world. We had a horse come in to a barn in CA from another trainer in another part of the country with 46 oz shoes on both fronts. And no, I did not add the 2 fronts together to get that number. Ridiculously extreme and no need for it.

The morgans also have a toe and weight limit (although its been awhile since I showed at their shows, so I don't know what it is exactly), winners of classes/championships are routinely measured before making victory passes. It takes little time and is less burdensome than having a USEF tester at your stalls after the class.

[asbridertb]

While I agree with you on the rest of your posts, sadly there are those extremes in the ASB world. We had a horse come in to a barn in CA from another trainer in another part of the country with 46 oz shoes on both fronts. And no, I did not add the 2 fronts together to get that number. Ridiculously extreme and no need for it.

The morgans also have a toe and weight limit (although its been awhile since I showed at their shows, so I don't know what it is exactly), winners of classes/championships are routinely measured before making victory passes. It takes little time and is less burdensome than having a USEF tester at your stalls after the class.

OK I guess I shouldn't have said "never." There are always idiots in the bunch. Fortunately they are few and far between. Do we legislate for the idiots, and restrict length and weight? I don't have a problem with that. However, I do have a problem with legislating as if we are ALL idiots.

[Dobilover]

To those of you who have an issue with our performance horse, you may note that those horses in your "horrible" video passed several inspection to get into the ring and were deemed compliant with the law. The winners were also inspected leaving the ring.
Those horses are bred to be able to do that. In fact if you would take the time to learn the dynamics of the gait, as proved in a UT study by Paul Roberson, The TWH naturally carries it weight on its hind quarters (it is part of the flat walk and running walk). The TWH does not use it's forehand for forward propulsion as other breeds in the trot, gallop etc. But its front end basically "get out of the way". This dynamics allow for the extreme front action, since the shoulder are free. The fact that we have horses into their late teens and even twenties performing attests to the fact that this is not harming them.
Your personal taste in way of performance is not something a law can be based upon.


What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long. -- Thomas Sowell

BTW in 1988 all pads and action devices were banned and all shoes were restricted to no more than 16 oz... it was only thru a major effort of lobbyists, horses people etc that they were returned, including subsequential court rulings. They were taken by a ruling in the court in a suit of the Amercian Horse Protection Assoc. vs the USDA. It ocurred in the middle of a show season (end of march).

I for one, do know the dynamics of the gait. And TWH's horses are bred and (pain free) able to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWwmnqPraX4&feature=related

Not this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4xy9fLBjh4&feature=fvsr

(notice the tension (pain) in this guys head carriage)

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koktEt_QzA&feature=related

(If this poor horse were anymore uphill he'd just sit down :sad: )

Yes, the TWH does have a deeper reaching stride in the back, but he doesn't crawl along on his canon bones. And if the horse didn't use his front end he'd fall over. He needs it for locomotion, hence the reason we sit back and deep in the saddle to free him up to work in the front as well as the back. It's one reason we ride in cutback saddles.

The fact that big lick horses show into their teens and 20's is testiment to the fact that they can endure pain for an inordinate amount of time and that trainers are quite savvy in ways to keep them running. It is not proof that they are not sored.

And finally, the "horrible video" shows BNT Link Webb (immediate past pres. TWH Trainers Assoc) winning the championship. Although his horse may have passed inspection that night, he is hardly innocent of violations:


Link Webb Trainer, Lewisburg TN Horse: Holyfield Ticket 0108, Suspension: 3/25/2011
Link Webb Lewisburg TN Violation: Unilateral Sore Suspension: 4/24/2005 - 5/7/2005
Link Webb Lewisburg TN Violation: Scar Rule Suspension: 9/6/2005-9/19/2005
Webb Stables Horse: Good Evening Violation: Technical Violation Suspension: 1/1/1998-12/31/1998

[FoxyFizz]

OK I guess I shouldn't have said "never." There are always idiots in the bunch. Fortunately they are few and far between. Do we legislate for the idiots, and restrict length and weight? I don't have a problem with that. However, I do have a problem with legislating as if we are ALL idiots.

Totally agree with you. We should restrict length and weight and go back to relying on a horse's ability rather than our ability to build a better mousetrap as it were. I look through the magazines and see Show Pleasure horses with the same or more weight on their feet than an open performance horse. WTH? Just seems completely at odds with creating the pleasure division to begin with....

[Mod #4]

:popcorn:

There will be the same 5-6 posters who will repeatedly say how horrible walking horses are; after a couple pages, it will then gradually morph into how evil the practices associated with saddleseat are. There will be some voices of reason who see the implications this has on the overall horseworld (marked by some profound PETA haters). Add in a couple of pages about why this is a shining example of why saddlebreds need to ditch saddleseat and go sport horse. It will finally close out after about 25 pages with some folks saying "we don't need to worry, they bring this up every year, it won't really affect us"

And my first thought, as a Mod, was "well there goes my weekend". I can't even tell you guys to go outside and play. It's too dang hot out there.
:flame:

[wilkinak]

Totally agree with you. We should restrict length and weight and go back to relying on a horse's ability rather than our ability to build a better mousetrap as it were. I look through the magazines and see Show Pleasure horses with the same or more weight on their feet than an open performance horse. WTH? Just seems completely at odds with creating the pleasure division to begin with....

The whole arrangement is screwed up right now. It takes a better horse to show in CP than in SP. One of my former trainer mishaps was almost drooling over the thought of showing my mare in country pleasure because she moved so well with just plates. Country Pleasure! WTH! A horse with that movement should be worked toward the open classes not the bottom of the barrel. CP was intended to be the bottom of the barrel. As far as I'm concerned, the statement "best representation of the breed" should be stricken from the class description. The breed's best should not be in that class. Commence :flame:

This is a problem that needs to be fixed by ASHA (and UPHA) on the JUDGING side, not by having the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT tell us how to shoe our horses. It is not something that FOSH should be sticking their nose in.

[FoxyFizz]

The whole arrangement is screwed up right now. It takes a better horse to show in CP than in SP. One of my former trainer mishaps was almost drooling over the thought of showing my mare in country pleasure because she moved so well with just plates. Country Pleasure! WTH! A horse with that movement should be worked toward the open classes not the bottom of the barrel. CP was intended to be the bottom of the barrel. As far as I'm concerned, the statement "best representation of the breed" should be stricken from the class description. The breed's best should not be in that class. Commence :flame:

This is a problem that needs to be fixed by ASHA (and UPHA) on the JUDGING side, not by having the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT tell us how to shoe our horses. It is not something that FOSH should be sticking their nose in.

I agree with you. I think the rule changes would need to come from USEF, but it needs to be addressed with trainers and judges as well.

[SmartAlex]

CP was intended to be the bottom of the barrel. As far as I'm concerned, the statement "best representation of the breed" should be stricken from the class description. The breed's best should not be in that class. Commence :flame:

Okey Dokey, you asked for it :flame:

CP was NOT created for the bottom of the barrel any more than SP was. It was created for a philosphy, not a quality. It is for those of use who want to pasture our horses and ride in the mud, and not deal with tail sets and still go to the show on the weekends. It is for those of us who don't necessarily have access to top notch farriers and don't have thousands of dollars and hours of time on fitting the footing. If we can breed, beg, borrow or steal a horse with enough talent to show open performance, and we still want to muddle about at home on our own, then we will. And we would just as soon those of you with your 6 inch toes and contraband tail sets stay the heck out of our division.

[ASB Stars]

The whole arrangement is screwed up right now. It takes a better horse to show in CP than in SP. One of my former trainer mishaps was almost drooling over the thought of showing my mare in country pleasure because she moved so well with just plates. Country Pleasure! WTH! A horse with that movement should be worked toward the open classes not the bottom of the barrel. CP was intended to be the bottom of the barrel. As far as I'm concerned, the statement "best representation of the breed" should be stricken from the class description. The breed's best should not be in that class. Commence :flame:

This is a problem that needs to be fixed by ASHA (and UPHA) on the JUDGING side, not by having the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT tell us how to shoe our horses. It is not something that FOSH should be sticking their nose in.

Hello. Just stopped by to start the weekend off on the right foot (pun intended).

The truth is that your horse might be worth a whole lot more as a top CP horse, than a mid-range SP horse. Fact. I'm not saying that the horse couldn't make a top SP horse- how the hell do I know, but the pricing issues are just what they are.

And, lest we forget, most of the *top* performance horses, assuming that they stay sound enough, DO end up in the Pleasure divisions- and the good ones still win wherever they are, because they have the manners and HEADSET that are demanded- even if they lack the motion they once displayed. First Light of Dawn ring any bells?

[ASB Stars]

Okey Dokey, you asked for it :flame:

CP was NOT created for the bottom of the barrel any more than SP was. It was created for a philosphy, not a quality. It is for those of use who want to pasture our horses and ride in the mud, and not deal with tail sets and still go to the show on the weekends. It is for those of us who don't necessarily have access to top notch farriers and don't have thousands of dollars and hours of time on fitting the footing. If we can breed, beg, borrow or steal a horse with enough talent to show open performance, and we still want to muddle about at home on our own, then we will. And we would just as soon those of you with your 6 inch toes and contraband tail sets stay the heck out of our division.

I just love this. Particularly the part about the tail sets. I love watching people launch into immediate denial about using them. :popcorn:

[ASB Stars]

I agree with you. I think the rule changes would need to come from USEF, but it needs to be addressed with trainers and judges as well.

And, if they had woken up, and smelled the coffee before this, they might have had the chance. Now, it is just a matter of time before their bubble is burst.

[FoxyFizz]

Okey Dokey, you asked for it :flame:

CP was NOT created for the bottom of the barrel any more than SP was. It was created for a philosphy, not a quality. It is for those of use who want to pasture our horses and ride in the mud, and not deal with tail sets and still go to the show on the weekends. It is for those of us who don't necessarily have access to top notch farriers and don't have thousands of dollars and hours of time on fitting the footing. If we can breed, beg, borrow or steal a horse with enough talent to show open performance, and we still want to muddle about at home on our own, then we will. And we would just as soon those of you with your 6 inch toes and contraband tail sets stay the heck out of our division.

Ok, I agree with you too. I don't think those horses were meant to be the bottom of the barrel, but certainly were not meant to be performance horses either, thus a division was created. And it should have benefited the AOT, but I think that ship has sailed. I wish they would open the pleasure division up to have a professional and separate amateur division as the morgans do.

[ASB Stars]

Ok, I agree with you too. I don't think those horses were meant to be the bottom of the barrel, but certainly were not meant to be performance horses either, thus a division was created. And it should have benefited the AOT, but I think that ship has sailed. I wish they would open the pleasure division up to have a professional and separate amateur division as the morgans do.

When the ship sailed- taking the AOT's dreams of actually having a mainstream division that didn't have AOT in the title, it meant that the quality of horse you needed to present in the division also reached a whole new level.

The very first time I ever watched a WC CP horse work, I was flat shocked. The horse was Rockin' The Blues, and he was trotting easily six inches over level. Why not move him up a division? Hell, no- he was winning it all, as a CP horse.

[SmartAlex]

I just love this. Particularly the part about the tail sets. I love watching people launch into immediate denial about using them. :popcorn:


The last time I had a horse in training, the stable put all their horses in sets on the show grounds (not at home), even the CP horses. Just no brace or string. And yes, it was obvious.

Thing is, after years of every one breaking the rules, and no one taking issue with it, the rules just get changed to accomodate the rule breakers because it is the norm. Not to accomodate the rule followers. Now how fair is that?

[sunridge]

You definitely don't want the Arabian shoeing rules. Have you seen how that breed has over shod their horses? The can't even trot correctly anymore. The Park horses skip and appear to be doing a gait of some sort leaving their hocks behind them.

The only time I've ever had a hoof problem with this breed is when they were in padded show shoes and stalled. They only reason I've even use shoes on my personal riders, was for wear. Never even needed pads for the mountain trips. They have all been barefoot for 3 years while living on VERY rough and natural terrain. Many of the hoof issues I keep hearing about in this breed could be easily remedied with good horse husbandry that has more to do with the horses, than the humans. Either that or have we also now bred the feet off of our horses?

[SmartAlex]

You definitely don't want the Arabian shoeing rules. Have you seen how that breed has over shod their horses? The can't even trot correctly anymore. The Park horses skip and appear to be doing a gait of some sort leaving their hocks behind them.

A lot of that has to do with the size discrepancy between the horse and the rider. Some of those boys just flat out need bigger horses.

I remember how Arabs used to move in the 1970s, like sand skimmers, not Saddlebreds. They had their own thing going. To bad it's gone.

[attafox]

We do a lot of pour in pads, in this area. They do not add to the length of the foot, yet they offer wonderful protection. I would think this could be a terrific option for horses needing some help.


Pour in is still a pad and therefore up for banning under what they are asking for.

[attafox]

While I agree with you on the rest of your posts, sadly there are those extremes in the ASB world. We had a horse come in to a barn in CA from another trainer in another part of the country with 46 oz shoes on both fronts. And no, I did not add the 2 fronts together to get that number. Ridiculously extreme and no need for it.



Holy moly. Heaviest shoe I have ever had on a horse of mine is 18 oz.

[FoxyFizz]

Holy moly. Heaviest shoe I have ever had on a horse of mine is 18 oz.

You just can't fix stupid I guess. The poor horse could barely walk, much less trot above level. It took months for him to be normal with a good farrier.

[SaddlebredMom]

And we would just as soon those of you with your 6 inch toes and contraband tail sets stay the heck out of our division.

Bullseye!! :flame:

Here's something to ponder . . .

We all know the rules require no pads or wedges in CP, so they aren't used. Now as a few have so aptly pointed out, many horses "drop down" to CP; however, they continue to knee themselves in the nose in this division. Humm, so why can't they do that in SP or the performance divisions too sans the show package?? :confused1: There is NO rule that says pads and wedges are required for SP or performance . . . :blink:

[Dobilover]

Bullseye!! :flame:

Here's something to ponder . . .

We all know the rules require no pads or wedges in CP, so they aren't used. Now as a few have so aptly pointed out, many horses "drop down" to CP; however, they continue to knee themselves in the nose in this division. Humm, so why can't they do that in SP or the performance divisions too sans the show package?? :confused1: There is NO rule that says pads and wedges are required for SP or performance . . . :blink:

Great question!!

[asbridertb]

Bullseye!! :flame:

Here's something to ponder . . .

We all know the rules require no pads or wedges in CP, so they aren't used. Now as a few have so aptly pointed out, many horses "drop down" to CP; however, they continue to knee themselves in the nose in this division. Humm, so why can't they do that in SP or the performance divisions too sans the show package?? :confused1: There is NO rule that says pads and wedges are required for SP or performance . . . :blink:

The horse I was going to show this year in Park has only a plate, no pad, and is turned outside every day. We were going to show him like that. Unfortunately life intervened and I've been unable to show him but that was the plan. We were pretty excited about being the only ones shod like that in that division... showin' 'em how it COULD be.

[walkinghorseowner]

Again what you are calling ridiculous is YOUR OPINION... those of us who actually SHOW AND BUY AND SUPPORT THESE HORSES do not think it ridiculous....

Just because you think something is ridiculous, or do not like is not a reason that it should be made illegal, or changed.......

but my point of posting this is that while you are telling me about how I shouldn't shoe a horse a certain way... this group is fixing to tell you how you can shoe and show your horses. And when these groups are done with that they will tell you how to bit them, house them, feed them etc etc etc.... so while you are deteriorating into complaints about sets, horses beating you, losing a division etc you have missed the main point of the article....

[ASB Stars]

Again what you are calling ridiculous is YOUR OPINION... those of us who actually SHOW AND BUY AND SUPPORT THESE HORSES do not think it ridiculous....

Just because you think something is ridiculous, or do not like is not a reason that it should be made illegal, or changed.......

but my point of posting this is that while you are telling me about how I shouldn't shoe a horse a certain way... this group is fixing to tell you how you can shoe and show your horses. And when these groups are done with that they will tell you how to bit them, house them, feed them etc etc etc.... so while you are deteriorating into complaints about sets, horses beating you, losing a division etc you have missed the main point of the article....

You know, I do find all of your points fairly disingenuous. There is this "they are coming after us- YOU are next!" Well, after all of the attrocities committed on the poor Walking Horses, I am thrilled that they came after you. If anyone does anything similar to our horses, I hope that they get them, too.

I do not think what is done to TWHs is ridiculous- I believe that it is heinous, and, apparently so do many, many others. That is what it took to attempt to put a stop to it.

So, while I deeply appreciate your starting this thread, and I think that TWHs are lovely horses, please do not ask me to look at these videos, and not just get sick to my stomach, and cry for those poor, kind, brave creatures.

[Dobilover]

Again what you are calling ridiculous is YOUR OPINION... those of us who actually SHOW AND BUY AND SUPPORT THESE HORSES do not think it ridiculous....

Just because you think something is ridiculous, or do not like is not a reason that it should be made illegal, or changed.......

but my point of posting this is that while you are telling me about how I shouldn't shoe a horse a certain way... this group is fixing to tell you how you can shoe and show your horses. And when these groups are done with that they will tell you how to bit them, house them, feed them etc etc etc.... so while you are deteriorating into complaints about sets, horses beating you, losing a division etc you have missed the main point of the article....

This isn't a matter of what I think or what you think, it's a matter of horses suffering. Period. And if horses are suffering at the hands of man, that is already illegal. And frankly, I wish they would tell people how (not to) bit them, 7 & 8 inch shanks are a disgrace.

And for the record I have bought and supported TWH's. I think the breed is amazing. But I have never, nor will I ever, support the big lick industry.

[SmartAlex]

I do not think what is done to TWHs is ridiculous- I believe that it is heinous, and, apparently so do many, many others. That is what it took to attempt to put a stop to it.


How many people have to have the opinion that it is heinous before the people who show, buy and support them change their minds? Answer: it doesn't matter. They will still show, buy and support what they enjoy until it becomes so unpopular that it doesn't exist anymore, or until it becomes illegal. Am I willing to let them take my "related" breed with them? Nope.

[sunridge]

I have a question that has plagued me for awhile. Why can the 5-gaited horses go so big with so little hoof/package but 3-gaited horses always have the big packages with the hose clamps? It has never made sense to me that one "needs" it yet the other seems fine without.

[SaddlebredMom]

but my point of posting this is that while you are telling me about how I shouldn't shoe a horse a certain way... this group is fixing to tell you how you can shoe and show your horses. And when these groups are done with that they will tell you how to bit them, house them, feed them etc etc etc.... so while you are deteriorating into complaints about sets, horses beating you, losing a division etc you have missed the main point of the article....

No one is missing the point at all. That is why 99.9% of the discussion so far has been about pads and wedges and the shoeing requirements of our various divisions. Isn't that what your original post is supposed to be "warning" us about -- a potential ban on the use of pads?? :blink:

And if you check the time-line posted earlier for this discussion, you'll see that we aren't scheduled to degenerate into mass hysterics yet as we're only up to Page 7; that stuff won't show up until after a few more pages have been logged . . . :tooth:

[sunridge]

How many people have to have the opinion that it is heinous before the people who show, buy and support them change their minds? Answer: it doesn't matter. They will still show, buy and support what they enjoy until it becomes so unpopular that it doesn't exist anymore, or until it becomes illegal. Am I willing to let them take my "related" breed with them? Nope.


And that is the single biggest reason we no longer are affiliated with the TWH show venue. As far as I'm concerned it ranks right up there with any kind of pit fighting including the blood thirsty spectators.

[Dobilover]

No one is missing the point at all. That is why 99.9% of the discussion so far has been about pads and wedges and the shoeing requirements of our various divisions. Isn't that what your original post is supposed to be "warning" us about -- a potential ban on the use of pads?? :blink:

And if you check the time-line posted earlier for this discussion, you'll see that we aren't scheduled to degenerate into mass hysterics yet as we're only up to Page 7; that stuff won't show up until after a few more pages have been logged . . . :tooth:

HAAAAAA! Perfect! :lol:

[Mona129]

I was going to multi quote most of the page with Yes! Yes! and oh HECK YES! but then I realized I'd be quoting most of the page so hows about I got with this instead:

Stars Yes, go after them its not ok. a horse is a horse and if showing means ruining the horse...then NO.
dobilover, YES, absolutely
Brita, Mary and saddlebredmom absolutely without a doubt I am glad to "know" each of you! Mary did I catch that right you are in spooner...hello from an Eau Claire girl! When we first got Ben in he had a big package with clamps. I can show you pictures. he showed in SP. His feet were in horrible shape crumbly and brittle. I took him out atleast four times a week to graze and with the increase in blood flow to his feet as opposed to being stalled all day he improved. The last winter, his feet were good enough at Pinewood we pulled his shoes and he was turned out for the winter. Sometimes people just don't take the time to develop a hoof. I go back to what I said already..do we overlook this in the breeding shed? I know when I was breeding, good foot was part of the equation. or does it get missed further down the line and what would be the reasons it happens? My three yr old colt I've had since yearling and my four yr old gelding (TSE fall'10)are both barefoot and have never had shoes. Are pastured 24/7. I have never seen anything but good feet or feet that would need shoes due to wearing down too quickly only (bunny). So where is it being overlooked? and how do we correct that turn?

PS it seems I didnt wait my requisite ten pages but this is a reallly good discussion and I had a :margarita: btw..did I mention ya'll rock? cuz you do....

[sunridge]

Small world Mona! I grew up in Ellsworth and used to show at the Bit and Spur back when they had ASB shows there.

[D_BaldStockings]

"Perfect motion doesn't 'improve' after a point, it degenerates."
Quoting myself on page 1.

The reason I say this about the presentation is
Look at the hocks and hindquarters only of the horses in the videos:
They are bowing out and swaying heavily side to side, from an obvious shift and squat (great and correct) to an overburdened all-or-nothing crouch step that only speed saves from being a collapsed leg.
The footfalls are irregular and it is no longer a four beat gait at the running walk or even a correct footfall sequence at the canter (I'm not talking 3-beat, that is long since gone; I am talking LH,RH --- RF---LF which is disunited and no gait whatsoever.).

So yes, if this wins as best of the best presntations, it is an example of having gone too far.

If others prefer that, AS A LOOK, but not inflicting pain, -Okay.
I can't fathom it.
What does a let down, out of show package, retired TWH show horse move like?

-And I do get the point of those who do NOT know the nuances are legislating in a hare-brained, excessive, shotgun means that is going to hit everyone and we as individuals and supporters of horse comfort and good shoeing should oppose that.

But I do hate to appear to support something I don't agree with.

Do I think people should be able to eat frozen chicken?
Sure, but not if their approved method of killing the bird is to put it live into the freezer.

p.s. all you popcorn eaters are going to get fat!!
:whistling:

[silvia]

I go back to what I said already..do we overlook this in the breeding shed? I know when I was breeding, good foot was part of the equation.

When we were shopping in the USA for a stud colt, we had no end of trouble trying to find one of the quality we wanted, a yearling, without being shod or in chains. We wanted natural motion, it proved to be a nightmare to find one without shoes on so we could see the movement (and let's not even start on trying to see a video with walk or canter in it).

We ended up buying from an Arabian breeder. Would have loved to support our Saddlebred community but we didn't have a choice.

As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, I wanted a horse with natural motion, not one bred to go high when shoe shoes are put on.

Back OT, what if therapeutic pads (thin flat pads) are allowed and wedge pads or over a certain thickness are not? That would separate show packages from the pads that help horses.

[Dobilover]

"Perfect motion doesn't 'improve' after a point, it degenerates."
Quoting myself on page 1.

........to an overburdened all-or-nothing crouch step that only speed saves from being a collapsed leg. ......What does a let down, out of show package, retired TWH show horse move like......

To your point: Exactly!!!

To your question, very poor. Aside from the obvious inflicted injuries, many have blown suspensory ligaments, crippling arthritis and horribly contracted heels.

[luvtoshowcp]

What does a let down, out of show package, retired TWH show horse move like?

The wonderful gelding I showed in plantation classes( similar to cp- no pads) in the 70's moved just like a natural horse, albeit w/ a 4-6 inch overstride. He had been a big lick horse at one time and we had to raid the beauty supply store to try and cover the ravages chemicals and chains had left on his legs. Very sad. But that was before the USDA. Doesn't look like much has changed to me. The "crouch" is totally a result of the huge altitude difference front to rear, and trust me a plain shod walker never does that. Are show- trained walkers still cued for canter by the rider kicking the leading leg? Always seemed like such a "Bubba" thing to do...

[FoxyFizz]

The wonderful gelding I showed in plantation classes( similar to cp- no pads) in the 70's moved just like a natural horse, albeit w/ a 4-6 inch overstride. He had been a big lick horse at one time and we had to raid the beauty supply store to try and cover the ravages chemicals and chains had left on his legs. Very sad. But that was before the USDA. Doesn't look like much has changed to me. The "crouch" is totally a result of the huge altitude difference front to rear, and trust me a plain shod walker never does that. Are show- trained walkers still cued for canter by the rider kicking the leading leg? Always seemed like such a "Bubba" thing to do...

Not sure about that, but watching the 1st video of the Celebration was like watching something out of Gladiator the movie and not in a good way (no Russell Crowe for starters). The videos that Dobilover provided were just as awful (big licks) as the horses were so far back on their hind legs, I half expected the riders to need to be belted on the saddles to stay on. They don't need cutback saddles, they need a bucket to hold them on the horse. That is not a natural action to me, they have taken on the appearance of a giraffe in the most exaggerated of the videos.

I rode a lite shod walker at a barn in CA and he was such a sweet and beautiful horse. Did not move anything like the Big Lick horses, thank god. I would hate to see him changed into the perversion that is the Big Lick Horse. Embarassing to the breed IMO. I, too, would like to know what happens to these horses at the end of their careers.

Is it no wonder FOSH wants to ban pads after watching a Big Lick horse move?

[Dobilover]

The wonderful gelding I showed in plantation classes( similar to cp- no pads) in the 70's moved just like a natural horse, albeit w/ a 4-6 inch overstride. He had been a big lick horse at one time and we had to raid the beauty supply store to try and cover the ravages chemicals and chains had left on his legs. Very sad. But that was before the USDA. Doesn't look like much has changed to me. The "crouch" is totally a result of the huge altitude difference front to rear, and trust me a plain shod walker never does that. Are show- trained walkers still cued for canter by the rider kicking the leading leg? Always seemed like such a "Bubba" thing to do...

Actually, aside from being jacked up so high in the front, the crouch is also a way that the sored horse trys to alleviate pain in his front end. This is what they can look like standing still:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8xR90vyBufU/S_tSI0MAbaI/AAAAAAAAAsE/xlaRb9yDGrk/s1600/IMG00085-20100517-1536.jpg

Can you believe arenas full of people pay to see this??

[Dobilover]

Just a thought. Isn't it amazing (pathetic) that all of the big lick horses wear breast collars and ASB's don't? How do you get to where you have to rely on a breast collar to keep your saddle on what should be one of the smoothest moving breeds available? My grandmother should be able to stay on one bare back.

[SmartAlex]

Are show- trained walkers still cued for canter by the rider kicking the leading leg? Always seemed like such a "Bubba" thing to do...

That was once a more common cue in saddle seat. An old-timey local Saddlebred trainer trained his cue to be your inside toe kicking the leading elbow. I got one of his horses and it took me weeks to find the button. For some reason I remembered something I had read in an old training book, tried it, and off we went.

[SmartAlex]

How do you get to where you have to rely on a breast collar to keep your saddle on what should be one of the smoothest moving breeds available? My grandmother should be able to stay on one bare back.

Not if you're headed up hill at a 45* angle. It's just physics.

[Mona129]

Just a thought. Isn't it amazing (pathetic) that all of the big lick horses wear breast collars and ASB's don't? How do you get to where you have to rely on a breast collar to keep your saddle on what should be one of the smoothest moving breeds available? My grandmother should be able to stay on one bare back.

Interesting that you should say that. In the late 80's my parents took me to a fantastic plantation walker farm. The one and ONLY time I have ever seen my mother on a horse, they hauled her butt up onto one of their WC stallions and he did the most LOVELY running walk with her. Did I mention the four men it took to get her up there? or that she really had NEVER EVER been on a horse before? and that stallion carted her around with the greatest care. I had ridden him first and he was amazing and kind and responsive. I left that day with a crush on that horse. :wub:

[D_BaldStockings]

Changing gears, here, folks.

I'm posting this snippet from another forum because I, myself, saw it as an absolute revelation as to what is truly going on:

"Ok so let me get this right.....90% of the violations to the HPA were from horses that were padded (but padding is not a HPA violation) so obviously the pads that the owners are putting on the horses make the owners do other things too that ARE violations.

Those bad pads must be radio active or something!"


What we see in this proposed legislation is a very insidious and dangerous form of creep with the rallying call of 'Stop the abuse!'

But pads aren't abuse. -Pressure shoeing is already addressed as soring; sorry, you can't extrapolate from that to outlaw pads.

What they are trying to do is basically wrong. It is based on an unsound conclusion.

Use of Pads is NOT soring.

[Youngatheart]

To Tenn Walking Horse
Don't waste your time with thee old BIDDY's collectively they couldn't figure out which end to put the feed in. And to them, if you like your back yard pet then fine, but stay out of everyone elses business, and stop trying to save the world. The ones who want horses rescued are THE ONES WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, OR DON'T HAVE AN EMPTY STALL OR HUBBY WANY LET ME HAVE ANOTHER ONE!! There fore they want someone else to do it. I have been in the horse business for 45 years and the best thing for the horse industry is to open 5 killer plants in the U.S.
It is not humane to starve a horse and that is whats happening in every community. Back to shoeing- go to a walking horse show and the stands are packed and the show grounds are full of horse. Then go to another breed show and the stands are empty and 1 and 2 horses to a class, So go pet your lil Darling and QUIT trying to tell the rest of us what is good or bad for us.
If you take the pads off Saddlebreds, Believe me trainers will find another way to make them go high!!

[luvtoshowcp]

Throwing this out for general consumption and a specific opinion from Walkinghorseowner....Would the twh industry voluntarily ban the biglicks to be able to save therapeutic pads and wedges for themselves and the rest of us? Also... mentioned a few pages back was something about Morgan's dividing classes between pros and ammies... I don't see that here in Ohio. But, I realize I am talking about mixed breed shows of the Saddleseat variety and have never attended a morgan only show. In the mixed show morgan pleasure classes I routinely see trainers riding against ammies and juveniles.

[FoxyFizz]

Throwing this out for general consumption and a specific opinion from Walkinghorseowner....Would the twh industry voluntarily ban the biglicks to be able to save therapeutic pads and wedges for themselves and the rest of us? Also... mentioned a few pages back was something about Morgan's dividing classes between pros and ammies... I don't see that here in Ohio. But, I realize I am talking about mixed breed shows of the Saddleseat variety and have never attended a morgan only show. In the mixed show morgan pleasure classes I routinely see trainers riding against ammies and juveniles.

At the all morgan horse shows, pleasure and park classes are divided between jr. exhibitor, youth, amateurs and professionals. At the mixed breed shows, there may not be enough exhibitors to justify the splits.

[FoxyFizz]

To Tenn Walking Horse
Don't waste your time with thee old BIDDY's collectively they couldn't figure out which end to put the feed in. And to them, if you like your back yard pet then fine, but stay out of everyone elses business, and stop trying to save the world. The ones who want horses rescued are THE ONES WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, OR DON'T HAVE AN EMPTY STALL OR HUBBY WANY LET ME HAVE ANOTHER ONE!! There fore they want someone else to do it. I have been in the horse business for 45 years and the best thing for the horse industry is to open 5 killer plants in the U.S.
It is not humane to starve a horse and that is whats happening in every community. Back to shoeing- go to a walking horse show and the stands are packed and the show grounds are full of horse. Then go to another breed show and the stands are empty and 1 and 2 horses to a class, So go pet your lil Darling and QUIT trying to tell the rest of us what is good or bad for us.
If you take the pads off Saddlebreds, Believe me trainers will find another way to make them go high!!

First, who are you referring to as old Biddys'? I don't know you and from your post, I don't care to either.

Second, a horse that travels like it is going uphill all the time is a perversion of what horseback riding is supposed to be. A walking horse is supposed to have a smooth easy to sit gait, not one where the horse has to throw its front legs out in front of him in order to get out of it's own way. A walking horse was bred to be ridden all over the plantation....not really seeing how a Big Lick horse could manage that feat.

Third, you are off topic as regards bringing into play the rescue/slaughter issue. It has no place in a topic about the banning of pads.

Fourth, sure the stands are full at the walking horse shows, at least when your Big Lick horses and their trainers don't take off because they can't show due to the fear of the DQP and USDA being present on the grounds.

Finally, go find a walking horse forum where you can all sit around the fire and discuss how bad the ASB people are and how we actually care about our horses' well being.

[luvtoshowcp]

Wow youngatheart... you p'd me right off on a hot, humid day. Take your slaughter houses and shove them. It is not humane to breed for slaughter either... and if slaughter exists some will. Let the market work, without a dumping ground, dubious horse breeders will have to find a market or face animal control violations/ fines. Horses need to become a valued commodity again and that is not possible w/ slaughter as an option. Would be better if we could get Canada and Mexico on board. Also from the pictures I see on here most of us seem to know which end to feed. Now back to the thread.

[Dobilover]

To Tenn Walking Horse
Don't waste your time with thee old BIDDY's collectively they couldn't figure out which end to put the feed in. And to them, if you like your back yard pet then fine, but stay out of everyone elses business, and stop trying to save the world. The ones who want horses rescued are THE ONES WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, OR DON'T HAVE AN EMPTY STALL OR HUBBY WANY LET ME HAVE ANOTHER ONE!! There fore they want someone else to do it. I have been in the horse business for 45 years and the best thing for the horse industry is to open 5 killer plants in the U.S.
It is not humane to starve a horse and that is whats happening in every community. Back to shoeing- go to a walking horse show and the stands are packed and the show grounds are full of horse. Then go to another breed show and the stands are empty and 1 and 2 horses to a class, So go pet your lil Darling and QUIT trying to tell the rest of us what is good or bad for us.
If you take the pads off Saddlebreds, Believe me trainers will find another way to make them go high!!

Youngatheart, I for one, am not an old biddy. Nor am I trying to rescue WalkingHorseLover's or your horses. I'm not trying to rescue anything at the moment.

Do you know what a red herring is? If not, look it up. Because you threw one right in the middle of this thread by bringing up slaughter and rescue when we're discussing pads and feet.

It is true that we'd like to grow our breed numbers and show attendence. But unlike the big lick world, we would never do so at the expense of our horses.

And finally, that is my gelding in my avatar. It would appear that I've pretty much figured out which end to insert the hay. ;)

P.S. Edited to add, you can take the pads off of saddlebreds if you want, they're born with natural talent, as seen here on this week old foal bred by some friends of mine:

http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/fe/l=en_US/p/dasta/Main/s_c=0/s_se=FDR/s_pt=REP,RPB,PMB,CAL/s_st=RegReqEu#ss=%7B%22uc%22%3A2%2C%22aid%22%3A681 5374009%2C%22pid%22%3A355761712009%2C%22vp%22%3A%2 2s%22%2C%22sb%22%3A5%7D

[luvtoshowcp]

I can not wrap my mind around stands filling to watch big-lick classes, in much the same way as watching cock/dog fighting, horse tripping, or bull-fighting leaves me wondering if I'm on the wrong planet.

[Dobilover]

Wow youngatheart... you p'd me right off on a hot, humid day. Take your slaughter houses and shove them. It is not humane to breed for slaughter either... and if slaughter exists some will. Let the market work, without a dumping ground, dubious horse breeders will have to find a market or face animal control violations/ fines. Horses need to become a valued commodity again and that is not possible w/ slaughter as an option. Would be better if we could get Canada and Mexico on board. Also from the pictures I see on here most of us seem to know which end to feed. Now back to the thread.

Don't let him/her ruin your day luvtoshow. He/she is just trying to lead us off topic since there really is no cogent argument to defend what happens in the BL world. It's the classic, "Oh yeah, well you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny" response.

[SaddlebredMom]

Alrighty then . . . we're at Page 9 and right on schedule . . . :tooth:

Changing gears, here, folks.

I'm posting this snippet from another forum because I, myself, saw it as an absolute revelation as to what is truly going on:

"Ok so let me get this right.....90% of the violations to the HPA were from horses that were padded (but padding is not a HPA violation) so obviously the pads that the owners are putting on the horses make the owners do other things too that ARE violations.

Those bad pads must be radio active or something!"


What we see in this proposed legislation is a very insidious and dangerous form of creep with the rallying call of 'Stop the abuse!'

But pads aren't abuse. -Pressure shoeing is already addressed as soring; sorry, you can't extrapolate from that to outlaw pads.

What they are trying to do is basically wrong. It is based on an unsound conclusion.

Use of Pads is NOT soring.

I agree with DBald's post above, and now seems just about the right time to delve into the nitty gritty . . .

This is the meat of the FOSH "news flash" per the OP in their opening post of this discussion.

Statistics were analyzed from the past three years' data from shows that USDA Veterinary Medical Officers (VMOs) attended. Over those three years (2008, 2009 and 2010) the entries inspected averaged about 50% padded and 50% flat-shod horses. Thirty six percent of the padded horses inspected by the USDA had Horse Protection Act (HPA) violations, which was five times higher than that of flat-shod horses. Of the flat-shod horses the USDA inspected, 7% were in violation. Of the total violations reported, 90% of the violations were for padded horses while 10% of the violations were from flat-shod horses.


Blah, blah, blah . . . :yawn: Spouting baldfaced percentages proves NOTHING about ANYTHING. What are the SPECIFICS?? How can you draw a rational, and more importantly a supportable, conclusion from what is posted above?? :confused: Easy -- You can't.

Before anyone goes around getting their panties in a bunch they need to tell us, specifically, violations for WHAT??? And not just some lump sum numbers thrown about randily to sound impressive in support of THEIR cause and objective.

What about those percentages = ban on pads?? :confused1:

Sorry, I can't, and won't, make that blind leap.

[asbridertb]

Spouting baldfaced percentages proves NOTHING about ANYTHING. What are the SPECIFICS?? How can you draw a rational, and more importantly a supportable, conclusion from what is posted above?? :confused: Easy -- You can't.

Before anyone goes around getting their panties in a bunch they need to tell us, specifically, violations for WHAT??? And not just some lump sum numbers thrown about randily to sound impressive in support of THEIR cause and objective.

What about those percentages = ban on pads?? :confused1:

Sorry, I can't, and won't, make that blind leap.

I'm right there with ya... no leaping off cliffs for me based on some @ssholes in the TWH world.

[ASB Stars]

The only useful thing to take from Doungatheart's post is that those who are neckdeep in this- read "the Kentucky Mafia", or the people who actually control our breed, do not give a damn about us blathering on here. Really, they don't.

Until, and unless, someone much bigger than they are, or believe themselves to be, comes along and says STOP, they'll be able to continue along, as they have for decades.

It is one of the reasons it is hard for me to get deeply concerned about the CSM/ASHA mess. Tell me which of those groups would actually care about a welfare issue like this- I mean care, not try and pretend it doesn't exist- and I'll tell you who I'd like to see prevail.

Oh, neither? Hmmm....

There are some great folks on the BOD, but by and large, they are kept in check by their need to keep position in their profession, and their desire to keep their seat at the big table.

But those who wear blinders, and would never choose to closely examine an issue like this are in control, make no mistake. So, the reality is that change will have to come and find us- with a big stick- because we certainly aren't going to go looking for it.

[sunridge]

From the mouths of "old biddy's". I agree Stars sad but true.

TWHBEA and SSHBEA pushed the envelope and now their show world stands alone quarantined to a tiny microcosm of horse people. No watchdogs, no oversight, USEF or the like, except the FED's. However those breeds are doing really well outside the show ring. TWH, SSH's, MFT's are everywhere and people love them. They are quickly becoming the go to all around ride because there was a split.

Is that what needs to done, I wonder? I don't think our numbers could support a split.

[WitchfulThinking]

Doungatheart's

hahahahaha

[sunridge]

Dammit I missed it. lol

[ASB Stars]

hahahahaha

Aw, you caught my typo. Guess I'll just leave it:oops:

[D_BaldStockings]

Banning pads is not a welfare issue.

Banning pads has nothing to do with SORING.

Banning pads to stop soring is banning icemakers to stop people pouring ice down your britches.

It isn't the ice, people.
It's people doing criminal acts.
Taking away their icemaker won't stop 'em. And hurts many innocent ice users.

[asbridertb]

Stars, with you, there are no typos. :blink:

[walkinghorseowner]

"Throwing this out for general consumption and a specific opinion from Walkinghorseowner....Would the twh industry voluntarily ban the biglicks to be able to save therapeutic pads and wedges for themselves and the rest of us?"

That's a big he{{ No from me.... fend for yourselves... most of you have swallowed every bit of garbage put out about the big lick TWH by the bunny rubbers , and I have read plenty of that garbage on this topic here.... I am pretty sure none of you have even read the auburn study, nor the thesis on gait by Paul Roberson, and probably not the constitution either.....

we have oversite BETTER than USEF... we have government approved inspectors, within our industry, besides the government employees checking every single TWH that competes.... Usef checks how many..... in the last 40 years over a million TW horses have been inspected....... every horse you see in every video at a show has been deemed compliant with the LAW...... I don't really care if you like the way they go or not....

as far as pads...well... people go over the speed limit, guess we need to take away the cars (or maybe calibrate all engines not to exceed 50mph, but then what do you do about 20mph school zones).

[Dobilover]

"we have oversite BETTER than USEF... we have government approved inspectors, within our industry, besides the government employees checking every single TWH that competes.......

Hence the problem. The fox guards the henhouse. :no:

[Fairfax]

To Tenn Walking Horse
Don't waste your time with thee old BIDDY's collectively they couldn't figure out which end to put the feed in. And to them, if you like your back yard pet then fine, but stay out of everyone elses business, and stop trying to save the world. The ones who want horses rescued are THE ONES WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, OR DON'T HAVE AN EMPTY STALL OR HUBBY WANY LET ME HAVE ANOTHER ONE!! There fore they want someone else to do it. I have been in the horse business for 45 years and the best thing for the horse industry is to open 5 killer plants in the U.S.
It is not humane to starve a horse and that is whats happening in every community. Back to shoeing- go to a walking horse show and the stands are packed and the show grounds are full of horse. Then go to another breed show and the stands are empty and 1 and 2 horses to a class, So go pet your lil Darling and QUIT trying to tell the rest of us what is good or bad for us.
If you take the pads off Saddlebreds, Believe me trainers will find another way to make them go high!!

Oh Oh.. I have been cloned. I for one would like to meet you.

Actively fighting HSUS, DEFHR and PETA.

What does the U of Davis study on stalls have to do with shoeing?

15 HH horse must have a 12.5 by 12.5 and anything else is unacceptable. Good bye Shows

Everything starts out with the premise" This is best for the horse"

Truth..Get people to leave the horse industry.

Want to regulate shoes? Attend your convention and get a motion passed

[Dobilover]

Oh Oh.. I have been cloned. I for one would like to meet you.

Actively fighting HSUS, DEFHR and PETA.

What does the U of Davis study on stalls have to do with shoeing?

15 HH horse must have a 12.5 by 12.5 and anything else is unacceptable. Good bye Shows

Everything starts out with the premise" This is best for the horse"

Truth..Get people to leave the horse industry.

Want to regulate shoes? Attend your convention and get a motion passed

Leo why am I not surprised that you take the side of those who condone BL practices? Let me ask you this: If we all decided to start underfeeding our horses to get a nice "sleek" look, or started sticking toothpicks in their eyes for a nice bright "alert" look, or started ripping their teeth out to really get them bitted up, or set their tails on fire becuase the charred look was trendy...and your dreaded PETA or HSUS or FOSH or DEFHR tried to do something to stop us; would you still defend our rights to do with our horses as we wish, since no outside organization should dare to dictate to us? Would you use the slippery slope argument then? "Well, if we let them tell us not to poke our horses in the eyes, you know what's coming next! We won't even be able to ride them!" Can you really not see how flawed that argument is? Would you really rather support known abusive practices than to compromise an individual freedom to better the lives of horses?

Ok, stepping off my soap box now. I don't want this thread to get shut down. I think some really good dialogue is happening.

[SaddlebredMom]

Okay, I'm calling it . . . Page 11, 7/22/11, 06:08 PM . . . 14 more till shut down . . . :tooth:

[D_BaldStockings]

Leo why am I not surprised that you take the side of those who condone BL practices? Let me ask you this: If we all decided to start underfeeding our horses to get a nice "sleek" look,
Most racehorses, and endurance and at least half the showjumping horses, not to mention some high-strung stallions in heavy breeding service are sleek and slender; some rescues would consider them underfed.
There is scientific proof that 'thin' animals are healthier and live longer on average than those with fat cover. In horses, colics, founder, Cushings and related problems have higher incidence in fatter horses.
or started sticking toothpicks in their eyes for a nice bright "alert" look, Sorry, but this is beyond hyperbole, without any benefit and I'm just going to cross it off as not gonna happen.
or started ripping their teeth out to really get them bitted up, There are people now who believe without twice yearly dremeling of grinding surfaces, pulling and sculpting premolars (not wolf teeth) and even canines their horses will never have good mouths.
It is a wonder horses were ridden for so many centuries with every appurtenance or none on their heads and bodies and everyone managed to get along and even came up with some hard to beat horsemanship accomplishments along the way.
Amazingly, cattle, sheep, pigs, cats and dogs still often manage to get through most of their lives with their original unaltered teeth when properly fed.

or set their tails on fire becuase the charred look was trendy
Ok, if you've ever burned hair (your own) you would find out that it sort of disintegrates into ash. So that isn't going to happen either.
Singeing was one means of shortening hair, and no, burning hair does not cause more pain than scissoring it.
People do dock tails, shave tails, add false tails...all of which do interfere with a horse's 'wild'look and function somewhat. So does grooming the dreads and mats out.

...and your dreaded PETA or HSUS or FOSH or DEFHR tried to do something to stop us; would you still defend our rights to do with our horses as we wish, since no outside organization should dare to dictate to us?
If any of the above use fallacious arguments, things that are not happening, inaccurate and deliberately inflammatory, falsely dramatic, emotional labelling of activities, imagining or creating pain where there was none and calling a real benefit an inexcusable hazard, extrapolating ridiculous acts that never happen or will happen to justify changes in existing laws that reduce the enjoyment of animals by humane people who meet the ordinary needs of the animal as based on actual science or observations in natural settings? Yes, I would object. Not because NO outside organization should dictate, but because no organization should WRONGLY dictate.
I'm on the border about independent organizations dictating, but mostly, no they should not.
I am part of a country that already has a government and laws. Dictation should come as a result of examined, voted on government by the people, not vigilante (in)justice.
Would you use the slippery slope argument then? "Well, if we let them tell us not to poke our horses in the eyes, you know what's coming next! We won't even be able to ride them!" Can you really not see how flawed that argument is? Would you really rather support known abusive practices

See above. Pads are not a known abusive practice. Soring is already illegal. Starting from an abuse to argue for controlling or ending non-abuse is also a flawed argument.

than to compromise an individual freedom
A non-abusive freedom to use beneficial pads wisely, and for the benefit of the horse?

to better the lives of horses?

But it isn't really about ALL the horses, it is about restricting the good in an ill-advised attempt to (we thought) eliminate the bad.
Think about massive fogging with DDT (done in many neighborhoods when I was young to control (bad) mosquitos) and the effect it had on beneficial insects, the water supply, bird populations, was a carcinogen, etc.
How greatly good intention can go awry by only seeing one aspect of a problem and slapping on a simple (and damaging) 'solution'?

Ok, stepping off my soap box now. I don't want this thread to get shut down. I think some really good dialogue is happening.

I think great dialogue is happening as well.
If a normal horse is happier outside on a 25 degree snowy winter day, fed, furry, acclimated and in the fresh bracing air, tell me why is it necessary to provide a 'shelter' that would keep a tropical origin (50 degrees feels cold!) human comfortable to house a horse in?

If a horse can't have high carbohydrate grain due to a metabolic condition, and is fed grain by some cruel person in order to have the horse medically judged unusable and collect on the insurance somehow; should everyone who feeds non-affected horses be penalized or criminalized for feeding grain -because there are evil (not uneducated, but really evil) people who can find any means to accomplish their ends? They would not even experience a ripple in their dirty business pond.

How is that for the good of the horse?

Just my opinion.
And my horses are unshod. And fat. And sometimes hang out in the shade of a building in summer sun.
But I don't think my way today is the 'best' or 'ideal' or 'only' way to keep a horse or horses. Just one of many successful ways people know. Saying 'I do this', isn't the same as '-and you'd better do as I say, or else!'

Difference is good.

[silvia]

If you take the pads off Saddlebreds, Believe me trainers will find another way to make them go high!!

You mean like, breed them to go high?

[D_BaldStockings]

Trainers aren't breeders.

They work with what they are given. And the good ones do go high and usually react to good shoes by getting a bit higher. But a lot of conditioning and rewarding the correct moving pass goes into it, too.

And it is a riding horse, not a harness horse. Hackneys and DHH are handsome, but they aren't Saddlebreds, the goals of the breeders should be a bit different, I hope. Riding horses are more than necks and legs.

[Fairfax]

Baldstockings said it with eloquence

I am not against spanking a child but I am against beating one

The law does not stop child abuse.

[ASB Stars]

Trainers aren't breeders.

They work with what they are given. And the good ones do go high and usually react to good shoes by getting a bit higher. But a lot of conditioning and rewarding the correct moving pass goes into it, too.

And it is a riding horse, not a harness horse. Hackneys and DHH are handsome, but they aren't Saddlebreds, the goals of the breeders should be a bit different, I hope. Riding horses are more than necks and legs.

Sadly, the Morgan folks have taken a perfecty good breed, and attempted to imitate the American Saddlebred show horses, with their park horses- right down to breaking their own rules, and cutting tails. TWH's have had their movement exagerated to a deplorable degree, through the use of excessive padding, excessive shoeing packages, and enough cruel practices-- like soring-- to have put them right up on the radar, and caused a naive public to believe that ALL ASBs are treated in the same manner.

The good ones do go light, really. And the great ones do not last, anymore. Think of any WGC Five Gaited horse, and tell me how many times they showed in a year, when they were winning that title? And, how many times did they win the title? What divisions did they do afterward- and for how long?

Most people do not even want to consider the fulrum effect of asking a horse to work with a vertical neckset, day in, and day out. When they go wrong behind- sooner than later, if their conformation doesn't protect them, and the trainers push too much, too fast- the answer is that they need to be injected, adjusted, and everything is looked at except the obvious-- they simply cannot put that kind of pressure across their loin, and stay sound.

I get really tired of people looking at the indefensible, and trying to act as though it is just de rigeur. There is a reason it isn't easy to pound a square peg into a round hole- but these pegs are living creatures.

[Mona129]

And it is a riding horse, not a harness horse. Hackneys and DHH are handsome, but they aren't Saddlebreds, the goals of the breeders should be a bit different, I hope. Riding horses are more than necks and legs.

I'll remember that the next time I see a saddlebred in harness. :glare:

[D_BaldStockings]

Stars,
Those abuses you write of are very real. They are reminiscent of a long ago article I read regarding the extreme and damaging torq on legs of juvenile reining horses, the flush feeding with high carb diets to overgrow youngstock for futurites, the overburdening of drugs in sprint 2 yr old racing, all leading to horses crippled or dead before age 5.

Human greed, wilfull ignorance, trust of 'experts' is everywhere in and out of the horse world.
So is a lot more honest effort, wise management and great horsemanship /sportsmanship /sacrifice to do what is right.
And no one writes about the good guys -unless they make mistakes.

Groupthink summarily lumps practices surrounding an industry having bad apples into one pile and calls it ALL bad.
Because one abhors soring doesn't mean one should agree to ban a non-soring device simply because a group that abhors soring seeks to ban the device.
Because so-and-so lying politician wears shoes by xxx company doesn't mean the shoes made him/her lie. Banning the shoe company is ridiculous in this example.

Dressage bans specific bits as harsh and inappropriate given the goals of the discipline, yet here comes roll-kur and some judging based on rewarding flashy movement or 'instances of excellence' in addition to looseness, promptness, willing submission, minimal aids though an entire performance, and all the rest of what made dressage an inspiration and challenge to horsemen to improve.

Should dressage now measure rein length and put marks on reins to ensure no one overdraws some legal limit? Or require breakaway reins that fail at excess pressure? Or reins of thread that will slice riders' hands if they try to haul in a horse? Or make new bit rules that specify soft spongey mouthpieces and outlaw metal bits?
And, oh, boy, there are groups that think that way and would like to impose that on 'riding' generally.


Got lost on a rant, there, -Sorry.

The point is morality can't be legislated. Old argument, but true.
Groups create moral guidelines for their members and groups change those guidelines for the better or worse.
Groups that get too out of line from major societal mores get rude awakenings from that society and either educate the society, change their guidelines or break up or withdraw further in hope of escape from the society.

Of course, vocal volume and media attention doesn't necessarily reflect societal norms, just current power-grabbing segments vying for more control over the masses and more media attention.


Not going to agree with a blanket policy across many industries where specifics have already been addressed.
And not going to agree with avoiding the within industry problem where it is real, either.


There are plenty of horses retiring sound from all disciplines and living long useful, lives enriching human-animal interactions all the way through.

Pointing out good practices and expanding them is not media worthy, but definitely far more beneficial long term than some of the follies people can get carried away with.

Thank you, Stars for providing your newsletter to us. I hope to see more great ideas benefiting horses and people being put out for public enjoyment and education to encourage good and wise practices.

[D_BaldStockings]

I'll remember that the next time I see a saddlebred in harness. :glare:

A riding horse in harness should be bred differently than a harness horse under saddle.

If you have never ridden a horse that has a jack-hammer effect on a rider with each step or rolls its' back side to side or has mutton withers that won't hold a saddle, well....


I'm only pointing out that if a horse only must go well in harness, those qualities that make a good horse under saddle are not necessary in breeding selection.

Fine Harness Horse refers to a 'Fine' translated 'light riding horse' presented in harness, remembering that driving (a horse) was an upscale recreation and necessity for most adults in the late 1900's. Riding horses by that time were almost purely recreational in the eastern half of the country and VERY differentially selected for.

DHH and Hackneys would have been considered Heavy harness horses -it takes more power and substance to haul a wooden wheeled carriage than a light FH bicycle wheeled trap.

Sorry if it is now some sort of insult to call a saddle-bred a riding horse.
What is the world coming to?

[ASB Stars]

A riding horse in harness should be bred differently than a harness horse under saddle.

Fine Harness Horse refers to a 'Fine' translated 'light riding horse' presented in harness, remembering that driving (a horse) was an upscale recreation and necessity for most adults in the late 1900's. Riding horses by that time were almost purely recreational in the eastern half of the country and VERY differentially selected for.

DHH and Hackneys would have been considered Heavy harness horses -it takes more power and substance to haul a wooden wheeled carriage than a light FH bicycle wheeled trap.

Sorry if it is now some sort of insult to call a saddle-bred a riding horse.
What is the world coming to?

Well, first off, our horses were bred to be ridden as well as driven. Always.

And, you might want to consider that a substantial number of these horses wind up pulling large black carriages with the whole family riding along. The wheels are wooden- with metal surrounding it. Not rubber.

Carry on.

[D_BaldStockings]

Well, first off, our horses were bred to be ridden as well as driven. Always.

And, you might want to consider that a substantial number of these horses wind up pulling large black carriages with the whole family riding along. The wheels are wooden- with metal surrounding it. Not rubber.

Carry on.

Funny,
I missed the part about American Saddle Horses being required to go in harness at the origin of the registry. Though they were required to go a saddle gait or didn't get in.

And it is amazing the number of horses whose deeds in harness during the Civil War went unrecorded, as well as the admirable recording of people driving miles with their Saddlebreds on a daily basis -wait those were primarily under saddle miles.

When was the Fine Harness WGC ADDED to the Saddlebred show roster? Any one care to read the memorable Fine Harness WGC that went on to become sires of dynasties in the breed?
Work in harness was the default setting for horses. Saddle Horses were something special.

I am sure that pads lead to horses going on the road pulling buggies. Of course.

Carry on.

[luvtoshowcp]

I am lost and confused as to what we are discussing here... perhaps it is the heat finally frying my brain...

[ASB Stars]

Funny,
I missed the part about American Saddle Horses being required to go in harness at the origin of the registry. Though they were required to go a saddle gait or didn't get in.

And it is amazing the number of horses whose deeds in harness during the Civil War went unrecorded, as well as the admirable recording of people driving miles with their Saddlebreds on a daily basis -wait those were primarily under saddle miles.

When was the Fine Harness WGC ADDED to the Saddlebred show roster? Any one care to read the memorable Fine Harness WGC that went on to become sires of dynasties in the breed?
Work in harness was the default setting for horses. Saddle Horses were something special.

I am sure that pads lead to horses going on the road pulling buggies. Of course.

Carry on.

The American Saddlebred is amazing in their ability to multitask- not only could they go to a horse show, tour the plantation, but, by golly, they could pull the carriage to church of a Sunday!

Without those special Fine Harness horses- WGC's, or not, where would we be? Without Supreme Airs, no Supreme Heir or Foxfire's Prophet- so, amongst hundreds of others, that means no Casey's Final Countdown. No RWGC Preferred Property? No An Heir About Her...amongst dozens of others. No WGC CH Captive Spirit, or his sire, Kalu-- well, I would be really PO'd about that, but that is just me. No WGC CH Night Prowler?- well, throw out those First Night Out horses...and hundreds of others. No Glenview's Radiance? No Ronald Reagan? No Vanity? Wow...the list goes on.

Oh, yeah- damn that Kate Shriver, too!!:wub:

[D_BaldStockings]

I think it is outrageous that they are trying to outlaw pads with no basis for the argument.

I am glad to hear of support for the Fine Harness show horse; they are wonderful aren't they? I still like riding Saddlebreds.


I think this started off course on some comments I made responding to Sylvia's post about breeding for high action, as exemplified by the DHH. So blame me.

Back to the topic.

[ASB Stars]

I think it is outrageous that they are trying to outlaw pads with no basis for the argument.

Back to the topic.

Back on track- pads, in addition to the obviously grotesque applications shown on Big Lick horses, are able to hide a plethora of evils. No pads? Tough to hide anything going on in the foot, save by injection.:flame:

Let's just call it another form of transparency.:thumbup:

[D_BaldStockings]

So it would be OK to make them of transparent plastic?

[ASB Stars]

So it would be OK to make them of transparent plastic?

Are you speaking of the obviously grotesque applications?

[D_BaldStockings]

Are you referring to soring?

[ASB Stars]

I guess that depends on your definition of grotesque. I pretty well defined where I was with all of this, early on.

If you can hide anything under a pad- it needs to go. If you can create a grotesque *look*, as shown in those videos, by mechanically elevating the horses front end, and thereby putting undue stress on their entire body, I think that falls into the grotesque category, as well.

[walkinghorseowner]

Well if we are going to make grotesque illegal, I foresee the fashion police closing down Walmart since it seems to "cause " grotesque.........

Again, looks like a lot of folks have their god complex going full speed ahead.... "I don't like it... make it illegal".........

[ASB Stars]

Well if we are going to make grotesque illegal, I foresee the fashion police closing down Walmart since it seems to "cause " grotesque.........

Again, looks like a lot of folks have their god complex going full speed ahead.... "I don't like it... make it illegal".........

I didn't know Walmart was inflicting harm on animals, consistently, intentionally, and for profit. I sure hope someone looks into it.

This isn't about fashion. And, as to God complex, um....what does that make the folks doing this to animals?

[D_BaldStockings]

Then you are not talking about soring?
Grotesque isn't soring in an actionable, legal sense.

Using soring as a smokescreen to outlaw grotesque is about fashion police.

Proving instead that 'grotesque' is true soring is a different kettle of fish.
It hasn't been proven.

Pressure soring is already illegal.

[ASB Stars]

Then you are not talking about soring?
Grotesque isn't soring in an actionable, legal sense.

Using soring as a smokescreen to outlaw grotesque is about fashion police.

Proving instead that 'grotesque' is true soring is a different kettle of fish.
It hasn't been proven.

Pressure soring is already illegal.

I believe that we are talking about pads, action devices, etc. This could obviously lead us into a discussion about other nefarious and cruel practices- which would include soring.

You do not think that soring is grotesque- in all of it's applications, and results? That's your perogative. I find it all heinous, to use yet another word.

You've told me what isn't grotesque, and played games with semantics. This isn't about games, it is about animal welfare, at its core.

Would you like to talk more about that?

[D_BaldStockings]

I believe that we are talking about pads, action devices, etc. This could obviously lead us into a discussion about other nefarious and cruel practices- which would include soring.

You do not think that soring is grotesque- in all of it's applications, and results? That's your perogative. I find it all heinous, to use yet another word.

You've told me what isn't grotesque, and played games with semantics. This isn't about games, it is about animal welfare, at its core.

Would you like to talk more about that?


The HPA's stance is that it is attempting to stop soring.

As one factor of that FOSH is apparently lobbying to outlaw pads on the grounds that statistically more horses wearing pads are found to also be sored.
Their conclusion is that outlawing X prevents a very unrelated Y.
A secondary conclusion appears to me that they feel they have a right to extend the ban to other breeds and disciplines -per the line ALL PADS.

I feel this is not a true welfare issue. I feel it is more akin to 'prohibition will stop drunk drivers'.

I haven't told you what isn't grotesque; I have stated that grotesque (appearance) is not soring (causing pain).

How you get soring isn't grotesque as a statement of mine I don't know.
Saying "this grass is green" is very different than "all greenery is grass"

Do you feel that padded presentation in and of itself is soring?
From a legal, actionable standpoint the HPA does not.

I am not playing with words.
I am trying to use words clearly and separate and identify the meat from the fancy sauce it is being served in.
I am also not using emotional blackmail to try to guilt people into seeing a pain issue in order to pass an unrelated pad issue.

I have yet to see the actual new paper asking for the ban from FOSH -did look around on their site and couldn't find it.
So may we have something REAL (someone produce the paper) to discuss, please?

[sunridge]

The kind of padding done to the TWH's is soring in my eye, pressure shod or not. It certainly is doing them zero favors in either case. Pads allow for invisible PRESSURE soring no way to tell unless you ban or start pulling shoes.

People in these closed industries are getting so far removed from normal they seem to forget what a good foot looks like. No matter what shows I've been to, I have seen plenty of crappy feet. Dished and underslung/collapsed heels/contracted heels, being the most common which is becomes difficult to tell if it's genetic or mechanical.

[ASB Stars]

No, I do not think that pads=soring. I think that stacks of pads, as used on big lick horses=a hideous, grotesque application which turns horses into something that they are not born conformed to do. Their entire body is contorted due to the application of those pads.

Pads also allow for the hiding of all manner of nastiness. No pads=no hiding.

And no, I don't like ASBs shown with alot of foot, or pad, either.

Is that clearer?

[luvtoshowcp]

I have read in many books on horse conformation and locomotion that the front legs have no bone to bone attachment to the spine. Ligaments do the job for them, making them different from other mammals that have a collar bone. Wonder if this is how walking horses manage to move with those stacks and what long term damage those ligaments sustain.Totally agree w/ Stars about the amount of asb horses showing on lousy feet. Our breed has too much heart for their own good, same as the TWH.

[Dobilover]

No, I do not think that pads=soring. I think that stacks of pads, as used on big lick horses=a hideous, grotesque application which turns horses into something that they are not born conformed to do. Their entire body is contorted due to the application of those pads.

Pads also allow for the hiding of all manner of nastiness. No pads=no hiding.

And no, I don't like ASBs shown with alot of foot, or pad, either.

Is that clearer?

Couldn't have said that better myself. Stacks, even without pressure shoing or chemical soring, are cruel in and of themselves. There is NO theraputic use for them ever, in any situation.

[Mona129]

I think we are getting behind schedule, page thirteen and we haven't even dissolved into hysterics yet. I don't see how we are going to jump to saddleseat bad sporthorse good in only another five pages.

:popcorn:

[what about tami]

I was reminded of this thread when I went to a local schooling show this weekend and saw some nice flat shod walkers looking normal and happy.
A close family friend raised Walkers when I was growing up and was pretty competitive in the show ring, stood a couple really nice stallions too. I never saw anything like what I'm seeing now and he did show some performance horses Those were beautiful natural moving horses with high leg action as well. I'm not saying they were not padded but nothing like the perversion that is now the big lick. I just can not wrap my head around how anyone, especially older folks who have seen them in a more natural state can think this looks good or not painful.
I was also talking to a local farrier that shoes some plantation walkers and he told me that he will go no further in shoeing as far as doing the packages. He stated that he doesn't agree with that kind of shoeing and even if he did he would be to afraid of getting in trouble by being connected to those that do shoe like that or sore. He did say he thought things had gotten somewhat better and he was really trying to get his clients to go with a shorter toe and lighter shoe with some success. He trims my Saddlebred who is barefoot.

Back on topic. I don't think all pads should be banned of course and once again it's unfortunate that we are lumped in with the people that are going to the extreme with the stacks and stacks of pads. I do want to say that I don't believe that all walking horse people sore or abuse but I will say that I believe that most big lick trainers do not have the best interest of the horse in mind.

[kmmed1]

:popcorn:
I've been enjoying the show!

[ASB Stars]

:popcorn:
I've been enjoying the show!

Karen, I think the world of you, but you can be just too close to the show. Watch out for popcorn poisoning!

[Mona129]

Kim, I think the world of you, but you can be just too close to the show. Watch out for popcorn poisoning!

Since when did Karen become Kim? LOL
:oops:

[ASB Stars]

Since when did Karen become Kim? LOL
:oops:

I just finished emailing a "Kim", and lost my small mind-- yet again! Thanks!

[walkinghorseowner]

"The kind of padding done to the TWH's is soring in my eye"
"No, I do not think that pads=soring. I think that stacks of pads, as used on big lick horses=a hideous, grotesque application which turns horses into something that they are not born conformed to do."


well well... more of the I think...it looks....I don't like it therefore it should be illegal......


First if you will read the law, "soring" is very specific, it is a legal term... just cause you don't like something or it looks grotesque it does not becomes "sore"......

You opinions are not FACT... they are your opinions based on a lot of inexperince with the TWH, and topped off with a good dose of HSUS and PETA topping...... again who has read the aubrun study, who has read Paul Roberson paper on locomotion...... but you are touchy feeling yourself right into wanting to make something illegal.....

[luvtoshowcp]

Sorry I don't need to read any paper or report that could in any way validate the atrocities you and your ilk inflict on the big lick horses.I have eyes and decades of experience with horse locomotion. I respect the beauty of a natural walker, and I respect your right to own horses. I refuse to condone forcing any horse to move with a vanity sink nailed to it's hoof. This has been an enlightening thread for me because I had assumed that the usda/dqps had eliminated the big-licks. Me thinks I might need a new project...

[ASB Stars]

Sorry I don't need to read any paper or report that could in any way validate the atrocities you and your ilk inflict on the big lick horses.I have eyes and decades of experience with horse locomotion. I respect the beauty of a natural walker, and I respect your right to own horses. I refuse to condone forcing any horse to move with a vanity sink nailed to it's hoof. This has been an enlightening thread for me because I had assumed that the usda/dqps had eliminated the big-licks. Me thinks I might need a new project...

You GO girl!!!:thumbup1: :bubblebath:

[3mares]

I have just been enjoying the show but walkinghorseowner's post made me think, are we just making our own assumptions without actually knowing the facts? The very exact thing that we all complain about those outside the ASB world doing to us? I don't know anything about TWH or big licks, so I am looking at all this without any preconceived notions. Just something to think about.

[SmartAlex]

I have just been enjoying the show but walkinghorseowner's post made me think, are we just making our own assumptions without actually knowing the facts? The very exact thing that we all complain about those outside the ASB world doing to us? I don't know anything about TWH or big licks, so I am looking at all this without any preconceived notions. Just something to think about.

The big licks are based on a preconceived notion, and may never live down their cruel past. Had their history been pure as the driven snow, they might have a chance. Regardless of facts, if you have horses that move like a cross between an arachnid and a sy-fy vehicle you are going to draw detractors, and since they spent decades soring and pressure shoeing to achieve exactly that, I don't know how they are ever going to prove that it is no longer done. If it IS no longer done, and the horses are still moving the same... then why the hell was it done in the first place?

ASB folks might be their biggest supporters, or their biggest detractors. After all, our wagon is hitched to their's in the public eye. We have almost as much to lose as they do.

[SmartAlex]

The latest FOSH documents are attached below

[SaddlebredMom]

Regardless of facts, if you have horses that move like a cross between an arachnid and a sy-fy vehicle you are going to draw detractors, and since they spent decades soring and pressure shoeing to achieve exactly that, I don't know how they are ever going to prove that it is no longer done. If it IS no longer done, and the horses are still moving the same... then why the hell was it done in the first place?

It is still being done . . . :sad:
I'm sure not by everyone, just as sure as I am that it is being done by some (based on current personal first hand knowledge and experience).

However, like with everything in this world, there are the extremes. And yes, there are people who look for, want and support the extremes. Be that as it may, that doesn't make them the norm. So we must be careful to not lump everyone all into one basket, just as we wouldn't want everyone to lump all ASBs into one basket. As much as we want to distinguish ourselves as a "gaited" breed totally separate and apart from the TWH in order to avoid any stigma due to "guilt by association", there are sectors within their own breed that want to do the same. And more power to them for that because as SmartAlex aptly pointed out, they have a long hard uphill climb to overcome that stigma brought on by decades of abuse. Nevertheless, some of those anti-soring sectors, like PETA, HSUS and FOSH, are just as extreme as the "big lick at all costs" sectors. We must be wary of both extreme sectors and find a happy landing place somewhere in the middle.

[D_BaldStockings]

I'm trying to read the second doc. here which I assume has the HSUS recommendation.
Anyone?
http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;dct=FR+PR+N+O+SR;rpp=10;po=0;D=APHI S-2011-0030

Please note the original legal document referred to:
"Soring is primarily used in the training of Tennessee Walking Horses, racking horses, and related breeds. Although a gait similar to ``the big lick'' can be obtained using selective breeding and humane training methods, soring achieves this accentuated gait with less effort and over a shorter period of time. Thus, Congress found and declared that horses shown or exhibited which are sore, where such soreness improves the performance of such horse, compete unfairly with horses which are not sore."

So it was not soring, nor sanctioned to train a horse to move in that manner if done correctly.
-just sayin'

Now we have the following snippet :
"However, if these regulatory changes and the resulting changes in the Horse Protection program do not result in the elimination of soring, we will seriously consider taking substantially more restrictive action, including, but not limited to, prohibiting the use of all action devices and pads, to accomplish the goal set forth by Congress in the Act."

-Which I assume is what is being brought to the table by HSUS now, but I can't read it.

[SaddlebredMom]

I'm trying to read the second doc. here which I assume has the HSUS recommendation.
Anyone?
http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;dct=FR+PR+N+O+SR;rpp=10;po=0;D=APHI S-2011-0030


Do you mean this??
Horse Protection Act: Requiring Horse Industry Organizations to Assess and Enforce Minimum Penalties for Violations (http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=0900006480e33e3e&disposition=attachment&contentType=html)

The first attachment is the same doc, but in pdf format.

The 2nd attachment is "Economic Analysis; Proposed Rule; Require Horse Industry Organizations to Assess and Enforce Minimum Penalties for Violations"; and is a corresponding document in the category "Supporting and Related Material".

[GottaDrive]

ASBs are wonderful animals. Ours are shod light. We keep toes relatively short. Use a small pad/wedge. Our horses are very competitve. Have a good way of going with more than adqualte motion for their respective divisions. And, they stay sound and healthy.

[ASB Stars]

ASBs are wonderful animals. Ours are shod light. We keep toes relatively short. Use a small pad/wedge. Our horses are very competitve. Have a good way of going with more than adqualte motion for their respective divisions. And, they stay sound and healthy.

Which is wonderful, but even at the WCs, you see horses with ridiculous length of foot, winning at the very top- which is maddening...

[silvia]

The main thing I personally worry at with either big lick TWH or ASBs with very long feet, is the long term changes it could cause a horse when you artificially raise the front feet higher than the horse was born, and then put a rider on top.

I know what it feels like to be about on heels all day.

[D_BaldStockings]

Yes, those docs, but looking for another, the HSUS doc that FOSH supports

snippet of importance:
(from the above gov't docs, my emphasis)
"Future Changes

As noted earlier, the OIG audit found that APHIS' program for inspecting horses for soring is not adequate to ensure that these animals are not being abused. Our responses to the audit report's recommendations included commitments to make several changes to the regulations besides those proposed in this document. We intend to propose those changes in a separate document, which is currently under development.
After establishing the DQP program in the January 1979 final rule mentioned earlier, we made several other changes to the regulations in a final rule published in the Federal Register on April 27, 1979 (44 FR 25172-25184), and effective on May 17, 1979.
Some commenters on the proposed rule that preceded these final rules, which was published in the Federal Register on April 28, 1978 (43 FR 18514-18531), stated that
APHIS should ban the use of all devices except protective boots. We stated in the April 1979 final rule that such action was unwarranted at that time. However, we continued, if the horse industry made no effort to establish a workable self-regulatory program for the elimination of sore horses, or if such a program was established but
did not succeed in eliminating the sore horse problem within a reasonable length of time, we would give serious consideration to the prohibition of all action devices and pads.
Thirty-two years after the publication of the April 1979 final rule, the state of the industry suggests that it has not eliminated the cruel and inhumane practice of soring horses to alter their natural gait in order to gain a competitive advantage. We are proposing the changes in this document, as well as the changes in the forthcoming
separate proposal, with the expectation that they will enable the Horse Protection program to successfully eliminate what Congress identified as the cruel and inhumane practice of soring. However, if these regulatory changes and the resulting changes in the Horse Protection program do not result in the elimination of soring, we will seriously
consider taking substantially more restrictive action, including, but not limited to, prohibiting the use of all action devices and pads, to accomplish the goal set forth by Congress in the Act."

OK, this is the Government position.

FOSH supports the HSUS position, which is published ...where...?

Also can anyone supply links to the papers that Walkinghorseowner has referenced?

Thanks!

[walkinghorseowner]

There have been over a million (actually closer to 2 million horses inspected over the last 40 years) and only a handful have resulted in USDA violations. Inner industry penalties ARE NOT violations of federal law, they are not findings that the HPA has been broken. Only the USDA after a conviction in a court can deem a person has violated the HPA. Right now the % stand at approx .0006% I believe.

As far as what pads due to a horse... nothing. I turned my daughter's juvenile horse out after being shod up for 18 years.... he was 19 at the time and still showing, but I ran out of kids to catch ride him and I would never sell him. He has run in the pasture with the broodmares since, is perfectly sound and has never taken a lame step in his life... he is 24 years old this year. This is the norm for these horses.

[ASB Stars]

There have been over a million (actually closer to 2 million horses inspected over the last 40 years) and only a handful have resulted in USDA violations. Inner industry penalties ARE NOT violations of federal law, they are not findings that the HPA has been broken. Only the USDA after a conviction in a court can deem a person has violated the HPA. Right now the % stand at approx .0006% I believe.

As far as what pads due to a horse... nothing. I turned my daughter's juvenile horse out after being shod up for 18 years.... he was 19 at the time and still showing, but I ran out of kids to catch ride him and I would never sell him. He has run in the pasture with the broodmares since, is perfectly sound and has never taken a lame step in his life... he is 24 years old this year. This is the norm for these horses.

This horse was shod like that from the time he was a yearling? Really?

I am not sure I would be able to agree with what you would consider sound, and what I would see that way. It would be interesting to see what the differences would be.

Do you have the HSUS paper that DBald is looking for?

[getupasb]

ASBs are wonderful animals. Ours are shod light. We keep toes relatively short. Use a small pad/wedge. Our horses are very competitve. Have a good way of going with more than adqualte motion for their respective divisions. And, they stay sound and healthy.

As Lonnie Lavery once told me through Ask the Trainer,

"Your question was "is it possible that a horse can have better motion without a big package?" Let me put it this way....best way to stop a horse from winging...lighten him up.....Best way to stop a horse from knocking his elbows off...lighten him up....Best way to stop a horse from forging...lighten him up...Best way to stop a horse from interfering...lighten him up etc, etc, etc!!!! Finally...best way to stop a very talented, naturally high motioned athletic horse from using his legs....put a long foot and heavy shoes on him!!!! I am in no way suggesting that all show horses should wear plates and a 4 inch hoof. Sensible corrective shoeing is indispensable for balancing the horse and his gaits as each horse is different. The key word is sensible.

I always felt that if a horse had only enough ability to go almost level and he did so with a 20 oz shoe and went the same with 6 oz shoe, what possible reason is there to carry the heavier shoe? Less is better in that case as well!"

(here (http://www.askthetraineronline.com/09SeptOct.html#more))

[SaddlebredMom]

Also can anyone supply links to the papers that Walkinghorseowner has referenced?

Do you meant the "UT study by Paul Roberson" / "the thesis on gait by Paul Roberson" and the "auburn study"?

Nope.

Maybe Walkinghorseowner can provide them since they've referred us to those documents a few times now . . .


As to the HSUS "position paper" that FOSH supposedly supports -- interestingly enough, the message that comes back on their website when I click on the link to "learn more" and heed their call to action says this:

New USDA Action to Strengthen Horse Protection Act Enforcement
We apologize, but the action alert you are attempting to access is no longer active.

Please consider taking action on other issues.

Must not be a hot topic for them any longer . . . ;)

[walkinghorseowner]

If an HSUS paper exists other than the petition that was filed with the USDA and appeared on the federal register in april it would be on the HSUS site....
The joint FOSH, HSUS petition is a matter of public record.......

[walkinghorseowner]

As to my horse he was started under saddle at 18 months with the shoeing being gradually added. I really don't think I need your pronouncement to tell me whether my healthy animal is sound at the age of 24. He runs in a 30 acre pasture with a herd of mares and is "chief stud" (he has delusions of grandeur), if he was unsound he'd be dead.

[SmartAlex]

He has run in the pasture with the broodmares since, is perfectly sound and has never taken a lame step in his life... he is 24 years old this year. This is the norm for these horses.

Don't take this the wrong way, because it is a sincere question. How can you tell when a TWH is lame? I mean, I know you can see variables in the stride of any leg, but what with the head nodding and everything... I imagine there is some gait specific rule of thumb just as those of us with trotting horses look for the tell tale head nod, and any lameness that is not revealed by this can be difficult to pinpoint.

[ASB Stars]

Don't take this the wrong way, because it is a sincere question. How can you tell when a TWH is lame? I mean, I know you can see variables in the stride of any leg, but what with the head nodding and everything... I imagine there is some gait specific rule of thumb just as those of us with trotting horses look for the tell tale head nod, and any lameness that is not revealed by this can be difficult to pinpoint.

Watch out! I was kind of asking the same thing...and she didn't like it, much...:oops:

[D_BaldStockings]

As to soundness in gaited breeds, I hope Kathleen KROSS chimes in.

Certainly there is shortness, irregularity, and head lifting (not nodding) noticeable in horses at walk or canter as a sore limb grounds; not to mention hesitating to move out, deliberately choosing to stand in mud or on softer surfaces, pointing, easing weight from foot to foot particularly in front, response to pressure, or standing uphill or downhill for long periods, more than ordinary gooming behavior in rubbing, biting or chewing at a limb or flank, etc.

Any TB trainer has to know subtle signs that will reduce speed at a gallop that many can see at a walk; I'm certain knowledgable gaited horse people can see lameness regardless of whether their horses trot or not.

Gee, Stars, if you had a sound older gelding out in your pasture, you wouldn't take offense at anyone (sight unseen) saying you didn't know what you were seeing, would you?

Asking questions is legitimate.

Baiting? Not so much.

[D_BaldStockings]

Do you meant the "UT study by Paul Roberson" / "the thesis on gait by Paul Roberson" and the "auburn study"?

Nope.

Maybe Walkinghorseowner can provide them since they've referred us to those documents a few times now . . .


As to the HSUS "position paper" that FOSH supposedly supports -- interestingly enough, the message that comes back on their website when I click on the link to "learn more" and heed their call to action says this:



Must not be a hot topic for them any longer . . . ;)

The deadline for commenting on the issue was July 26, I believe. So there is not an action (commenting) to take anymore. Now we get to see what the powers on high decide.

[wilkinak]

The USDA change that was up for comment was changes to enforcement of HPA, - manadatory penalties, etc. It did not propose a ban on pads, that is a different issue.

[Dobilover]

As to soundness in gaited breeds, I hope Kathleen KROSS chimes in.

Certainly there is shortness, irregularity, and head lifting (not nodding) noticeable in horses at walk or canter as a sore limb grounds; not to mention hesitating to move out, deliberately choosing to stand in mud or on softer surfaces, pointing, easing weight from foot to foot particularly in front, response to pressure, or standing uphill or downhill for long periods, more than ordinary gooming behavior in rubbing, biting or chewing at a limb or flank, etc.

Any TB trainer has to know subtle signs that will reduce speed at a gallop that many can see at a walk; I'm certain knowledgable gaited horse people can see lameness regardless of whether their horses trot or not.

Gee, Stars, if you had a sound older gelding out in your pasture, you wouldn't take offense at anyone (sight unseen) saying you didn't know what you were seeing, would you?

Asking questions is legitimate.

Baiting? Not so much.

Might I add that some older sore/lame TWH's also have tendency to become pacey, even trotty (yes, walkers can trot) and some won't want to move at all due to extreme cases of arthritis.

[SaddlebredMom]

The deadline for commenting on the issue was July 26, I believe. So there is not an action (commenting) to take anymore. Now we get to see what the powers on high decide.

The deadline for comments was at Midnight. I was at their site well prior to that. There also is no other link or information about this to be found on the site (you yourself said you couldn't find it . . . ) but for that prior to the deadline dead link.

They are obviously not trying to make their position readily available to the public for review and analysis. If they were, it would be posted and easily located on their website.

If anyone can find it there, please post the link in this discussion. Inquiring minds want to know . . . ;)

[SaddlebredMom]

Don't take this the wrong way, because it is a sincere question. How can you tell when a TWH is lame? I mean, I know you can see variables in the stride of any leg, but what with the head nodding and everything... I imagine there is some gait specific rule of thumb just as those of us with trotting horses look for the tell tale head nod, and any lameness that is not revealed by this can be difficult to pinpoint.

The head bob of a TWH is not the same as an "ouch I'm in pain" bob. The desired head bob is in time and in sync with their gait and motion and is quite distinct from an ouchy bob. As for other signs - they are just like any other horse. They will have tenderness, lay/stay down more frequently, not want to do weight bearing on the effected limb/body part - shift their weight/body position, and their gait will be off as well - not their usual steady and rhythmic beat.

A head bob is not the only indicator of soreness or lameness, nor is a head bob always an indicator of that as well.

[Dobilover]

Here's a lame walking horse. Watch the black horse that comes in the ring at about the 0:53 point. He's definitely off in the back end, probably his right hind:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

Aside from that, watch the trainer's spur kick at 4:43 and the horse who stumbles at 5:03. Look at the sad/sour body language in the line up at about 5:25. Shank length and horse discomfort at 6:18. And finally, see the pain (ears/face) from winner's horse at 6:53. Do these people not know how to read when their horse is saying "ouch!"???

Last, read the ignorant comments under the video...one of my favs "OK, maybe TBs and other breeds go lame from being ridden at 2, but not Walkers. Walking Horses mature faster and have much sounder, stronger limbs than TBs and most other breeds." :pissedoff:

[Dobilover]

The head bob of a TWH is not the same as an "ouch I'm in pain" bob. The desired head bob is in time and in sync with their gait and motion and is quite distinct from an ouchy bob. As for other signs - they are just like any other horse. They will have tenderness, lay/stay down more frequently, not want to do weight bearing on the effected limb/body part - shift their weight/body position, and their gait will be off as well - not their usual steady and rhythmic beat.

A head bob is not the only indicator of soreness or lameness, nor is a head bob always an indicator of that as well.

The head bob of a TWH should "cut a an inverted V in the air. Up down-left, up down-right. The horses in the video I posted above have shortened, straight up and down bobs. Indicative of traveling stiff or sore.

Check out the difference between this nice moving (relaxed head bob) mare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R202krkCxz0

And this poor COMING 2 y.o. mare who's so stiff it's pathetic. Why the standing martingale? To keep her from flipping over? Not to mention this "trainer" looks like he's on the back of a buffalo. :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU4rerzdp-I&feature=fvwrel

[D_BaldStockings]

This research paper is interesting regarding conditioning and has important points re: benefits of working 2 yr olds, as well as working older horses properly for their discipline (in this case galloping at speed).
http://www.fact-canada.com/discus/messages/1045/GraysonResearchToday_BoneDensity-4842.pdf

I realize the more popular current stance is to blanketly condemn two yr old training, yet there are valid reasons to do SOMETHING training-wise with young horses having to do with both strengthening and 'work ethic' development.

Rather like human physical training at early ages, and I don't want to get into the difficult transition many young people have to the 40 hr work week after the freedom of schooldays.

[longshanks]

I understood, perhaps incorrectly, the topic of this discussion to be the threat of outlawing pads and action devices and the resulting doom that such legislation would surely bring about. Apparently the topic has morphed from legislating how a horse should be shod to everything we like or don't like about the TWH.

[Mod #4]

Determining soundness in a gaited breed, in this case, is directly related to the discussion of pads and action devices. The age of starting a horse does relate to soundness, so isn't too far off tangent. But, if we are going to explore that in more depth, it would be better to start a seperate thread.

[Dobilover]

I understood, perhaps incorrectly, the topic of this discussion to be the threat of outlawing pads and action devices and the resulting doom that such legislation would surely bring about. Apparently the topic has morphed from legislating how a horse should be shod to everything we like or don't like about the TWH.

I like everything about the TWH. I like nothing about the big lick style of training, including the long shanks (sorry, couldn't resist, but it's true) and particularly the shoeing, which is how this part of the discussion came about. The central issues of abusive training with pads and chains comes from big lick horse industry (even as outlined in the FOSH/HSUS document), so why would we not examine them closely? I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water (i.e. no pads/chains) but I'm also not for drowning the baby (over-stacked, poorly moving, ouchy horses). JMHO.

[sunridge]

The reality is the law was first enacted because of the nefarious thing done to the TWH in the name of the game. If we don't the all out banning of pads, what is acceptable?

Personally, wouldn't it be great if they would make the pads transparent, then we could actually see what going on in there.

[Dobilover]

The reality is the law was first enacted because of the nefarious thing done to the TWH in the name of the game. If we don't the all out banning of pads, what is acceptable?

Personally, wouldn't it be great if they would make the pads transparent, then we could actually see what going on in there.

My horse wears transparent pads in the front. They're there for theraputic purpose only. But I can see his foot underneath. :)

[longshanks]

Sunridge,
is there a word missing from your last post or am I not reading it correctly (entirely possible) "If we don't (?) the all out banning of pads, what..."

[walkinghorseowner]

"Don't take this the wrong way, because it is a sincere question. How can you tell when a TWH is lame? "

Don't mind answering this at all (no the other allusion to it was not stated in near as "nice a manner").
The first thing you notice, and this goes in any horse, is a change in attitude.(look at his expression is he "different") Is the happy working horse sudddnely not so happy.... or is the curmudgeon lazy horse all of a sudden getting too much go to him (running away from pain). Contrary to bunny rubbin report most TWH are happy workers.
Next if you work with them enough you kinda know where the common problems can occur. If he suddenly becomes unlevel (the big issue is is it front or rear, because a rear issue can show up in front), first check ...was he shod recently and is the blackmith quick him. Rule that out, rule out hitting knee (this would really go more towards a young horse the may not have good control of his legs..many times we wear knee boots as a safety.
Watch how he moves behind, is one end short striding, is there more lift off the ground on one foot... is he extending the same behind on both... is one hind leg circling before placing and a zillion other things.
Then a horse can look dead lame and it is in his mouth...sometimes the slightest "off" in the mouth, even the way a rider is holding the horse shows up as lame. This is why many times on a TWH you will see a horse warm up fine for one person and when another gets on him the entire horse changes...remember the walk/running walk is an in between gait and the right balance is necessay to do all they do and still keep the gait.
The biggest tell in the end, is how he feels.... you KNOW how your horse should feel under you, and with a TWH you really are in sync with the rhythm... when the rhythm gets out of sync there is an issue.
Now all the above pertains to a working horse..... a pasture horse is just like any other.... if the common gait one does (retired twhs are usually pacier that when they are shod up...) changes you have an issue.

[walkinghorseowner]

". I like nothing about the big lick style of training, including the long shanks (sorry, couldn't resist, but it's true) and particularly the shoeing, which is how this part of the discussion came about."

You may not like anything.... but you also KNOW next ot nothing about the TWH show horse, its training, gait devlopment etc etc etc. BTW you missed the most likely horse that may have had a leg problem in the video.... most of them were just a bunch of young horses not set in their gait, showing their first season

As far as the tie down, that is used to give the young horse something to balance against, it is an assist when he is learning to shift his weight to steady him..... it is attached to a ring at the bottom of the caveson. Why do you use a martingale on the asb.....or a bicycle chain bit (hey that is much better than long shank right ... see I can be hateful too). Most TWH padded horses are also fairly light in the mouth.... you don't hang on them....

Showing two year olds is not necessarily something I support... depends on the colt... BTW you DID KNOW that the TWH has a split breeding season, or what amounts to LONG colts... those foaled in Oct - dec go with the next year... so many 2 year olds were actually 2 the october before the march in which they started showing.....

Also there is a study that does show a horse should be worked to develop more bone density....

and finally the only incidences found to be "pressure shod" were on flatshod horses wearing no pads(both found by industry inspectors).... (BTW there is an option to pull shoes on any suspect horse)

[D_BaldStockings]

Mods,
Are you seriously suggesting a thread to 'dislike' the 'big lick' presentation of TWH?

...because that is what we are drifting toward here.

I have noted in the past that bashing other breeds/disciplines has been discouraged, especially unasked for comment on videos (although I happen to think discussion can be educational and I'd rather see people thinking about why they believe as they do than not); and we all know that every barrel has its' bad apples.

My own perspective on the original post was that it was about the danger of 'outside' regulation based on unsupported chain of thought: That outlawing pads for all will stop one kind of soring...so push that into legislation. -Which will affect all breeds where horses wear pads/action devices.


Expanding from that to 'all that is wrong with TWH big lick' discussion is sidestepping the issue above to go on a 'hate' vent.

I'm not in that.

[Silly Filly]

Might I add that some older sore/lame TWH's also have tendency to become pacey, even trotty (yes, walkers can trot) and some won't want to move at all due to extreme cases of arthritis.

Living in the area of TWH country, I can safely say that TWHs have a tendency to be pacey and trotty at birth. I doubt it has anything to do with arthritis, unless arthritis is hereditary.:)

[Dobilover]

". I like nothing about the big lick style of training, including the long shanks (sorry, couldn't resist, but it's true) and particularly the shoeing, which is how this part of the discussion came about."

You may not like anything.... but you also KNOW next ot nothing about the TWH show horse, its training, gait devlopment etc etc etc. BTW you missed the most likely horse that may have had a leg problem in the video.... most of them were just a bunch of young horses not set in their gait, showing their first season

As far as the tie down, that is used to give the young horse something to balance against, it is an assist when he is learning to shift his weight to steady him..... it is attached to a ring at the bottom of the caveson. Why do you use a martingale on the asb.....or a bicycle chain bit (hey that is much better than long shank right ... see I can be hateful too). Most TWH padded horses are also fairly light in the mouth.... you don't hang on them....

Showing two year olds is not necessarily something I support... depends on the colt... BTW you DID KNOW that the TWH has a split breeding season, or what amounts to LONG colts... those foaled in Oct - dec go with the next year... so many 2 year olds were actually 2 the october before the march in which they started showing.....

Also there is a study that does show a horse should be worked to develop more bone density....

and finally the only incidences found to be "pressure shod" were on flatshod horses wearing no pads(both found by industry inspectors).... (BTW there is an option to pull shoes on any suspect horse)

1. You have no means of knowing what I know or do not know about Big Lick horses. You don't know me. And to correct you, I know plenty about the training and gait development. I wish that time was put into actually training and developing them. No reason they can't lift their legs high and reach deep. But Lord a mercy, that high and that deep??? That's not training (other than not to flinch when at the DQP). That's man made (man forced) and wrong. It is not in the best interest of the horse.

2. Martingales in ASB's are running. Used to finess headset, not to crank it down. If you're style of riding necessitates giving your horse someting to brace against, perhaps that should be cause to reflect on what you're doing. I've personally never seen a bicycle chain bit used, but I don't imagine it's for anything good (see, I can and do admit when I don't have experience with something).

3. I've never been hateful towards a single person in this thread. I do hate what happens to performance walking horses. I don't hate you, or longshanks or anyone else. I don't even know you.

4. You'd better be light on their mouths with 8 & 10 inch shanks or they will flip over on you

5. The mare I showed you with the tie down was posted as a coming 2-year old. So no matter what time of year she was born, she's not yet 2. And a long colt will still only be 13-15 months old when he's one. Here's a very interesting article on horses being worked too young:

http://www.webertrainingstables.com/ridingyoung.cfm

6. I never mentioned pressure shoeing, though I do abhor it. But just because it is the torture...er I mean training method of choice for plantation horses doesn't make what happens to the Big Lick horses any less heinous. It's a good thing that BL horses just deal with caustic burns and heavy chains, but never pressure shoeing God forbid.

[Mod #4]

Determining soundness in a gaited breed, in this case, is directly related to the discussion of pads and action devices. The age of starting a horse does relate to soundness, so isn't too far off tangent. But, if we are going to explore that in more depth, it would be better to start a seperate thread.

Mods,
Are you seriously suggesting a thread to 'dislike' the 'big lick' presentation of TWH?

...because that is what we are drifting toward here.

I have noted in the past that bashing other breeds/disciplines has been discouraged, especially unasked for comment on videos (although I happen to think discussion can be educational and I'd rather see people thinking about why they believe as they do than not); and we all know that every barrel has its' bad apples.

My own perspective on the original post was that it was about the danger of 'outside' regulation based on unsupported chain of thought: That outlawing pads for all will stop one kind of soring...so push that into legislation. -Which will affect all breeds where horses wear pads/action devices.


Expanding from that to 'all that is wrong with TWH big lick' discussion is sidestepping the issue above to go on a 'hate' vent.

I'm not in that.


No Ma'am, I am suggesting that if we want to discuss the pros and cons of putting two year olds in work we start another thread. Hate vents are never welcomed here, but I do see your point about unasked for comment on videos. That particular discouragement has loosened up as of late, and if I remember correctly didn't go too well last time.

[Dobilover]

Mods,
Are you seriously suggesting a thread to 'dislike' the 'big lick' presentation of TWH?

...because that is what we are drifting toward here.

I have noted in the past that bashing other breeds/disciplines has been discouraged, especially unasked for comment on videos (although I happen to think discussion can be educational and I'd rather see people thinking about why they believe as they do than not); and we all know that every barrel has its' bad apples.

My own perspective on the original post was that it was about the danger of 'outside' regulation based on unsupported chain of thought: That outlawing pads for all will stop one kind of soring...so push that into legislation. -Which will affect all breeds where horses wear pads/action devices.


Expanding from that to 'all that is wrong with TWH big lick' discussion is sidestepping the issue above to go on a 'hate' vent.

I'm not in that.

As one of the more "vocal" ones here on the Big Lick issue, I have said before and will say again that I don't hate anyone. I do not like the fact that the original topic of banning pads/chains is a problem more or less created by the big lick industry. ASB's are not sored. We all know that. It's too prevelant in the BL barns, even if less so than before. So to hear the BL people deny and stick up for what is/has been done in their industry, which is utimately affecting ours, is a very valid reason to delve into what's happening on their side of the street. We're having to deal with it anyway, just because we "sort of look the same" to an outsider.

Edited to add; DBald, we're on the same side. I don't want pads banned either. I just can't/won't stand silent while those who support the industry that's MOST guilty of the need for said ban acts like everything over there is just rosey.

[walkinghorseowner]

coming two year old means in our breed the horse will be shown in 2 year old classes....not the actual age of the horse in question.... coming two year old are any horse that will be shown in the two year old classes in the coming show season... a colt born in oct of 2008(figuratively speaking he was foaled in jan 2009) is a two year old this year, and was a coming two year old at any time before the show season started, or if you want to be fussy before jan 2011 (when all horses born in 2009 are considered 2)... so that oct 2008 colt is actually a full 2 in oct of 2010 and is 29 months old at the first horse show in march....

I may not know you, but from your statements I can draw the conclusion that your experience with the padded performance TWH show horse is highly limited.... whereas I have been breeding, showing and working twh for the last 40 years.... I believe I have a little more experience with the breed than you do....so I really do know what I am talking about in genetics, conformation, gait and training.......

the reason I mentioned pressure shoeing is because that would be the only reason anyone would have to "see what is under the pads", and the use of I believe you said it of transparent pads.....as is mentioned in several posts.

I really find it fascinating, that something that was to give you a heads up (yes they will take away all pads first from all breed, then on to tail sets, double bridle, all bridles saddles etc)... has been turned into a say anything nasty you can about my breed, whether you actaully know anything or not. It is a good thing that I don't consider most of you as representatives of the asb breed particpants in general... most I know personally are much nicer. I apologize to those of you participating that have not spouted the canned HSUS/FOSH drivel and to those who actually asked honest questioned.

[longshanks]

I feel that in the highly unlikely event that pads were made illegal and every horse in every breed had to wear a keg type shoe, the show ASB would be less affected than the big lick TWH. Granted there would be some loss of animation in the ASB as a whole and it would probably be the end of a show career for a few, but generally speaking a good ASB does not lose their show horse appeal and motion when their shoes are pulled. A good ASB show horse is much more than a set of waving legs. I saw Calloway's Copyright barefooted in a field trotting almost as high as he did winning his WC titles. He looked fantastic and he is the rule, not the exception. The difference in the two breeds is that as a whole the TWH will not retain that huge rolling motion and rear end squat without the big pad and the action device. Sure there are some natural horses out there but I have never seen a big lick TWH with pads removed move at liberty like they do in the show ring.

[Dobilover]

coming two year old means in our breed the horse will be shown in 2 year old classes....not the actual age of the horse in question.... coming two year old are any horse that will be shown in the two year old classes in the coming show season... a colt born in oct of 2008(figuratively speaking he was foaled in jan 2009) is a two year old this year, and was a coming two year old at any time before the show season started, or if you want to be fussy before jan 2011 (when all horses born in 2009 are considered 2)... so that oct 2008 colt is actually a full 2 in oct of 2010 and is 29 months old at the first horse show in march....

I may not know you, but from your statements I can draw the conclusion that your experience with the padded performance TWH show horse is highly limited.... whereas I have been breeding, showing and working twh for the last 40 years.... I believe I have a little more experience with the breed than you do....so I really do know what I am talking about in genetics, conformation, gait and training.......

the reason I mentioned pressure shoeing is because that would be the only reason anyone would have to "see what is under the pads", and the use of I believe you said it of transparent pads.....as is mentioned in several posts.

I really find it fascinating, that something that was to give you a heads up (yes they will take away all pads first from all breed, then on to tail sets, double bridle, all bridles saddles etc)... has been turned into a say anything nasty you can about my breed, whether you actaully know anything or not. It is a good thing that I don't consider most of you as representatives of the asb breed particpants in general... most I know personally are much nicer. I apologize to those of you participating that have not spouted the canned HSUS/FOSH drivel and to those who actually asked honest questioned.

Honestly, you can say that I'm mean to your breed and a nasty person all day long, but what I have said, and will say again is that I love the TWH! I have owned 2 and help to start many others. I love TWH. Period. Dot.

I hate big lick. I have put much thought into my responses. I do not spout "canned drivel" (now who's mean??) and if I were in support of the HSUS/FOSH ban, why would I clearly state that I am not???

On one thing you are correct. I have limited experience in the padded world. That is because it only took a very short amount of time for me to see, read, learn, experience something very wrong there. If I went to a chariada (a Mexican style of rodeo where horses legs are roped and then they're tripped) I wouldn't need to go back over and over to make sure that the abuse that I saw there was really happening. Nor would it mean I didn't like Mexican horses. Oh, and just to be thorough, it also wouldn't mean that I hated Mexicans.

[Dobilover]

I feel that in the highly unlikely event that pads were made illegal and every horse in every breed had to wear a keg type shoe, the show ASB would be less affected than the big lick TWH. Granted there would be some loss of animation in the ASB as a whole and it would probably be the end of a show career for a few, but generally speaking a good ASB does not lose their show horse appeal and motion when their shoes are pulled. A good ASB show horse is much more than a set of waving legs. I saw Calloway's Copyright barefooted in a field trotting almost as high as he did winning his WC titles. He looked fantastic and he is the rule, not the exception. The difference in the two breeds is that as a whole the TWH will not retain that huge rolling motion and rear end squat without the big pad and the action device. Sure there are some natural horses out there but I have never seen a big lick TWH with pads removed move at liberty like they do in the show ring.

On this we agree completely. :)

[SaddlebredMom]

We're making good time here folks . . . only 5 more pages to go before shutdown! :tooth:

[walkinghorseowner]

"I love TWH. Period. Dot.

I hate big lick."

You do not love the TWH, you love your version of the TWH......

it is the same as saying I love people, but I hate polish americans (I can say this because I am polish so nobody get their panties in a politically correct wad:) )

What most of you do not understand, is that we really don't care that our horses do not do the big lick across the field, we don't expect them to any more than you expect your horses to slow gait across the field or rack (in fact I believe the natural racking ones are rejected by persons wanting a 5 g show horse). We are totally different from the trotting breed. We breed horses that have the ability to walk. Some do it barefoot, some with kegs and some with pads...... Really I know the pads give the horse the ability to do the big lick, just like pointe shoes give ballerina the ability to dance on their toes.... can they dance without them, yes but not as spectacularly. Can a TWH walk without the pads and action devices yes, but not as spectacularly. I like the spectacular... if you don't fine... but do not preach to me that I am wrong for liking it, and that my horses are less because they do it. If you don't like the look don't particpate, don't watch... but also DO NOT lecture those of us who do, and do not try to change what I do in my breed, or one of these days someone will walk into your breed and start telling you how to do things with your horse (and I am not talking about only the show horse, but the sport horse and the backyard horse and you won't like it one bit..

[D_BaldStockings]

Dobilover,
I do appreciate you explaining your position and your references.

I will point out that the facts presented in the articles referenced are established -horses'growth plates fuse at ages xx; horses become lame or unserviceable due to the list of xx incidents; horses reach sexual maturity before physical and mental maturity (although I believe the age at which males produce viable sperm has proven to be much younger) all are accepted observations and measurements .

The opinions expressed as a loosely connected chain of supposition and extrapolation springboarding off those facts are NOT FACTS, nor science.

Failing to do research or ignoring actual research leads to inaccurate conclusions.

It is a fact that 'unfinished' growth plates are subject to damage and that can lead to irreversible issues throughout a horse's life.
It is also a fact that 'finished' growth plates are subject to damage and that can lead to irreversible issues throughout a horse's life.
-more for young than old? less? does other free exercise have effect? feeding? mental stress during handling?
Correlation does not equal causality.
We observe the Sun rise in the east and set in the west, yet the Sun is not circling the Earth, as was thought to be true for centuries.


It is also a fact that correctly loading immature horses leads to remodeling that has a positive effect for the rest of that horse's life; and that NOT loading at a young age, but trying to do the same at a later date after maturity does NOT have AS MUCH positive remodeling. -per the scientific study posted earlier.
There is a reason other than 'they're cheap and plentiful' that people interested in very strenuous equestrian sports often use former race horses -if they retire serviceably sound.

What would be ideal, and what some are trying to discover how to do using heart rate recoveries, imaging, and other measuring tools is to try to discover where good loading stops and bad loading begins, and where and how to correct mistakes (better done at an early age due to the greater ability of young tissue to successfuly remodel) which is an individual 'place' for each horse.

I will agree that overworking young horses leads to damage. Underworking them by not working at all leaves them open to damage when they are later worked that would not have happened had they been correctly worked in a graduated, monitored manner as their bodies were able to accomodate the work schedule.
Overworking unconditioned or wrongly conditioned older horses leads to damage, too.

If I wait until my horse's neck vertebrae are mature at age 5-6 (fact), tell me how much fun it will be to halter and teach one that old about haltering, leading, tying?
Most people teach weanlings to lead and tie. I rarely hear that being too young is a reason for the accidents and damage that can happen to the youngster in the hands of a trainer who makes mistakes, especially foolhardy ones.

Objecting to damaging a horse - yep. Too young? No, bad trainer overloading -at any age.

Objecting to putting all monetary rewards in futurities and young horse classes -yep. Because emotion aside, welfare aside, logic says older horses will retire/ be discarded in favor of younger if there is $ at the young ages and nothing for older horses. There's your older horses leaving = young horses entering stats in a nutshell.
Doesn't matter if they retire sound or can perform at the top for ten years if there is no reward for doing so.

And logic says young horses will be pushed and overworked for those $ and the young horse standards of performance will go higher and higher until they are unattainable without huge fallout rates (messed up physically or mentally).
Now, if there was some sort of real vetting going on, some sort of high mileage sound horse awards, money for seasoned or aged (over 10) year old horses that was MORE than the futurity money, people might do things differently and horses might last longer.

But that's just OPINION -mine.
Subject to change over time as more information comes to light. Not only from horses, but especially human athletics, simply due to more money being poured into that from a research and conditioning and injury rehab perspective.

Not interested in outlawing pads as a way to make that happen.

[Mod#3]

WHO, I'd say that since you're on an ASB board, that telling the ASB folks to NOT lecture/disagree with you doesn't fly here.

You've come into OUR sandbox.

Play nicely. Or go home.

Is that clear? And yes, that is a Mod directive.

[D_BaldStockings]

I do note that TWH are being talked about on this ASB board, so I feel that permits WHO the right to lecture and disagree 'right back at us' where she has information we may not.

-unless specific comments about TWH and big lick also need to be redirected back to 'an outside agency is looking at outlawing all pads in response to some abusive people misusing them or at least association with a different abuse on horses which wear pads, isn't the over-reaction something to object to?' Because making hammers illegal hurts legitimate carpenters and builders, not just cheaters who use rotten lumber.

Certainly some of the words used here in opposition to big lick have not been gentle.


There are practices in the ASB world that viewed from outside could lead to "one of these days someone will walk into your breed and start telling you how to do things with your horse (and I am not talking about only the show horse, but the sport horse and the backyard horse) and you won't like it one bit.."

Which is a valid warning based on the observation that there is a published desire from outsiders looking in to outlaw all pads completely, plus the earlier thread about the inclusion of Saddlebreds specifically in the breeds list on soring published by Midge Leitch DVM.

That is my take on it, anyway.

[Mona129]

one of these days someone will walk into your breed and start telling you how to do things with your horse (and I am not talking about only the show horse, but the sport horse and the backyard horse and you won't like it one bit..

Dissolving into hysterics. Check.

Moderator increased involvement. Check.

Moving right along...

Should be ready for sport horse good in about three pages.

:glare:

[Fairfax]

As a well known crusader against HSUS, DEFHR and their outreach affiliates, I can understand the position taken by Walking Horse and Bald Stockings.

Members of this board have given a polite hand clap at best, when I have posted HSUS positions for them to be aware of. Most, "APPEAR" to have few if any concerns. This is usually because these individuals may not be showing, breeding or involved in any activity other than just enjoying their horses.

This same relationship is standard within the dog industry. Pet owners believe that purebreds are inbred until they are unstable (yet there are more biting Bichon/Maltese/Shih Tzu crosses than most of the purebreds I see at my kennel). I have always laughed at those who claim the Afghan Hound is inbred and stupid with no room for a brain due to its long nasal profile.

Dog Show organizations and the AKC and CKC are well organized and they KNOW that every step taken and maintained by HSUS is almost impossible to retake. They also know that Wayne Pavel, the CEO of HSUS is a patient long term type of guy...baby steps..don't alarm the general public...attack breeders and show people where the general public are not informed and thus they will usually acquiesce in favor of a group they "believe" are looking out for the welfare of the animals.

ANY legislation produced and presented by HSUS, DEFHR or any of its affiliates is suspect. We have observed the transformation of the Henenke Scale. When it was first developed as a guide for optimum reproduction within Quarter Horse mares, the major component was to determine weight from emaciated to obesce as both affect the breeding cycles.

Now, DEFHR, HSUS and the affiliates are changing that scale to say a 3 is underweight where the "producer" of the scale in his only written paper on the subject (1983) stated that was an ideal weight. As with nature, thin is better.

The original premise brought to this forum by WHO was for owners to be informed, aware and keep up their guard as it starts with pads and before you know it, HSUS will have horses declared companion animals which inplies (we ahve documents we are investigating) they should not be FORCED to perform physical work i.e. driving or riding..as those are NOT requirements for companion animals of the canine species. (See how sneaky they can be?)

I am sure many of you will be spilling your coffee this morning as this is probably the first and last time you will read a post from me that does not point out stupid is as stupid does with direct reference to names

Sincerely,

Leo

[Mod#3]

Mona129, LMAO. Leo? Spot on.

DBS - Polite debate is fine. Telling this group it can't disagree with a position regarding stacks and soring? Not fine.

Also, the reason the TWH is being discussed is that WHO was the originator of the thread. Now, we all know that there are perpetrators of abuse in all breeds. I seem to recall someone in your own state (and county) who has been brought up on charges multiple times, so I am definitely not sticking my head in the sand regarding abuses.

But, be polite.

[Mod #4]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Weekend Forecast: checking computer instead of playing outside
:bubblebath:

[Mod#3]

Mona;

Right on schedule. 2nd mod to check in. :margarita: :oops:

[longshanks]

I can't help but wonder at the likelihood of this pad banning taking place. I'm pretty sure that an all inclusive ban on horses wearing pads is even less likely than the Mayan calender accurately identifying 12/21/2012 as the day the world ends. However, I will leave the door open that it could happen. If this remote possibility were to occur, the "bunny rubber":wub: in me says we should make lemonade out of the lemons. Think of the money everyone would save on farrier bills alone. Kegs shoes or barefoot trims are so much cheaper than building or resetting pads. Further, trainers could no longer yell at their grooms for forgetting to tighten bands before and loosen bands after the horse works. Yeah! Lastly, because most of the pads used today are made from petroleum based plastics, this ban could be yet another important step in reducing our dependence on foreign oil. I'm sure there is more lemonade to be made from these ominous equine lemons, so please add any you can think of.

[SaddlebredMom]

I can't help but wonder at the likelihood of this pad banning taking place. I'm pretty sure that an all inclusive ban on horses wearing pads is even less likely than the Mayan calender accurately identifying 12/21/2012 as the day the world ends. However, I will leave the door open that it could happen. If this remote possibility were to occur, the "bunny rubber":wub: in me says we should make lemonade out of the lemons. Think of the money everyone would save on farrier bills alone. Kegs shoes or barefoot trims are so much cheaper than building or resetting pads. Further, trainers could no longer yell at their grooms for forgetting to tighten bands before and loosen bands after the horse works. Yeah! Lastly, because most of the pads used today are made from petroleum based plastics, this ban could be yet another important step in reducing our dependence on foreign oil. I'm sure there is more lemonade to be made from these ominous equine lemons, so please add any you can think of.

There's the sentiment that you shoot for the stars but hope to land on the Moon. While a total all-inclusive ban on pads and "action devices" is what the extremest groups - HSUS, PETA, FOSH, etc. - are shooting for, I can't imagine that happening either. Is it possible that a compromise ban could be implemented -- yeah, I'm afraid that could be a possibility.

However, just as we are having this discussion, I'm sure other breeds are too. A ban would effect EVERYONE. ALL horsemen/women would have to circle the wagons together and that would present a pretty formidable opponent to the extremists.


And speaking of shooting for the stars, I see the launch sequence has timely started for this thread and lift off is scheduled in 6 . . . 5 . . . 4 . . . :tooth:

[longshanks]

What do you mean by a compromise ban? Explain to me how it would work. Would it entail an overhaul of the HPA and expansion of the DQP program?

[Dobilover]

What do you mean by a compromise ban? Explain to me how it would work. Would it entail an overhaul of the HPA and expansion of the DQP program?

Maybe a ban on stacking pads (no more than...), and limiting the weight of chains.

[longshanks]

Well, those limitations are already in place for the TWH and related breeds like the Racking Horse, Spotted Saddle Horse, etc...There are limitations on pad thickness, heel/toe proportions, types of shoes, and band placement as well as restrictions on the weight of and what can and can't be used as an action device. So, I'm still pretty sure this whole discussion is a lot of hoopla over what really amounts to a little bit of nothing. Now don't misunderstand me, I think the huge packages on the BL horses look atrocious and I think they could improve their public image by reducing the size of package they allow and getting rid of chains in the showring but this is only what I think and nothing more. Different strokes I guess.

[longshanks]

Let's hypothesize for a moment that this ban actually is put in place and no more pads. Kegs shoes or even barefoot only. That's it. No wriggle room at all. This way or the highway. Would it be incorrect to speculate that the quality (natural ability) of foals would improve because breeding stock could be evaluated and selected on a more heritable/genetic basis.

[ASB Stars]

I am sure many of you will be spilling your coffee this morning as this is probably the first and last time you will read a post from me that does not point out stupid is as stupid does with direct reference to names

Well, Forrest, that was quite something!

I am still of the opinion that WHO is intent on proving that the slippery slope that her breed is on applies more directly to our horses, meaning we'd better get on board with the big lick folks, pronto!

And, while I dislike seeing ASB show horses with excessive foot, or pads, I abhor what I see in the big lick horses, not only standing still, with those anvils on their feet, but in movement- which must make old Merry Go Boy, and Sun's Delight, roll over in their respective graves.

Unlike Forrests box of chocolates, we do know what we are going to get if we continue down a path that leads into the abuses inflicted on the TWH's. Big Ass Trouble.

So, perhaps we should be even more aware of what is going on with our own horses, and those at the shows and sales we frequent. If we do not police ourselves, then ol' WHO just be right!

[Mona129]

However, just as we are having this discussion, I'm sure other breeds are too. A ban would effect EVERYONE. ALL horsemen/women would have to circle the wagons together and that would present a pretty formidable opponent to the extremists.


and thats why I just CAN NOT get on board with 'The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!!' theories put forth. In the end, there are simply more of us than there are of them and if its something big bad and ugly thats really going to affect us all, well then they best be prepared to see what happens when cowboys get their britches in a twist

Would it be incorrect to speculate that the quality (natural ability) of foals would improve because breeding stock could be evaluated and selected on a more heritable/genetic basis.

Uh no :glare: not incorrect at all. In my strange little world, thats the point of breeding.

ETA: Mods 3 and 4...you know I love you :wub:

[Dobilover]

Well, those limitations are already in place for the TWH and related breeds like the Racking Horse, Spotted Saddle Horse, etc...There are limitations on pad thickness, heel/toe proportions, types of shoes, and band placement as well as restrictions on the weight of and what can and can't be used as an action device. So, I'm still pretty sure this whole discussion is a lot of hoopla over what really amounts to a little bit of nothing. Now don't misunderstand me, I think the huge packages on the BL horses look atrocious and I think they could improve their public image by reducing the size of package they allow and getting rid of chains in the showring but this is only what I think and nothing more. Different strokes I guess.

Although those limits are in place, they are still extreme. Here is a package for an ASB performance horse (bottom left):

http://www.horsesales.com/saddlbre.htm

And those of a big lick TWH:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Tennessee+Walking+horse+sore&um=1&hl=en&sa=X&tbas=0&tbm=isch&tbnid=Oxqoei8c4mdfGM:&imgrefurl=http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot.com/2009/09/research-padding-and-effect-on-walking.html&docid=ok8S6uBiaUY4gM&w=268&h=339&ei=6KoxTqaKPIXniAKB75W6CA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=696&vpy=343&dur=701&hovh=253&hovw=200&tx=109&ty=131&page=5&tbnh=125&tbnw=110&start=118&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:118&biw=1440&bih=726

It's pretty easy to see the huge differences. Even if soring wasn't common in the big lick world, that package alone should be banned. And I'm not saying ours are perfect (nor is our foot length), but it is still far more moderate than the BL packages.

[hackney_love]

That second photo is an exaggrated package that I am sure got a ticket & turned away. If not, I will be amazed. By the looks of that package, it has violated heel/toe ratio.

ETA: That is by the look of the photo. Only a measuring tape would know for certain. The toe must one inch longer than the heel. Bands are good though.

[luvtoshowcp]

Actually, something Who said a few entries back has given me ... shall we say.. an epiphany. Please save my pride by snickering behind your hands, thanks. She said to her the BL is beautiful. My jaw dropped... so she sees the BL horses as we see our top WGC's. Here is the"ah ha" part for me. I wonder if a barrel racer or endurance rider sees our showring ASbs with the same disgust we have all been heaping on the biglicks? Is it all just perception? Can we learn anything here that might help us improve our marketability/ image down the road?

[longshanks]

Thanks for the visuals, Dobilover. I'm pretty familiar with both breeds and how they are shod but maybe some can use them for reference. I was only making the point that there are already quite a few "compromised bans" in place.

OK, here's some more food for thought. Broadly speaking, BL prospects are pacier, looser moving individuals. They pads and chains are added to enhance motion but to also change the gait from swinging to square. It follows then that reducing the size of either the shoes or the chains will result in a swinging horse. Therefore, is it possible that reducing or eliminating the shoe size of the BL TWH would put them at an even greater risk for soring? Something will be needed to replace the action of the shoe and the chain. With this in mind, should the shoeing limitations be eliminated all together? Should the weight restrictions on action devices/chains be raised instead of lowered in an attempt to reduce the incidence of soring?

[Mona129]

I wonder if a barrel racer or endurance rider sees our showring ASbs with the same disgust we have all been heaping on the biglicks? Is it all just perception? Can we learn anything here that might help us improve our marketability/ image down the road?

Now you've got it. Thats exactly why they lump us with the BL's. They see it the same way. and OMG the firecrackers, fire extinguishers and tail sets in the stalls....you would think we're killing them according to the stock people. Funny how that perception thing works, eh?


OK, here's some more food for thought. Broadly speaking, BL prospects are pacier, looser moving individuals. They pads and chains are added to enhance motion but to also change the gait from swinging to square. It follows then that reducing the size of either the shoes or the chains will result in a swinging horse.

So it means that maybe just maybe one will have to breed for the desired physical characteristics they want instead of playing with monkey wrenches. If you can't get it naturally, then don't do it. I don't expect my hackney pony to go cut cattle. Last I checked, if a horse can't physically do something, then they should go do something else. Square pegs round holes and all that jazz, your mileage may vary...

[walkinghorseowner]

Just an FYI in 1988 all pads and action device were removed and all shoes were limited to 16oz. The sky already fell once.After much disarray and political pressure, pads and action devices were restored for all breeds. Pads and action device are banned by some breeds but that is not in the law that is a breed choice.

There are legal limits on size of packages, which is 50% of the natural foot is allowed to be added with a toe one inch longer than the heel in a package. All bands must be 1/2 inch below coronary bands. And current law restricts any weight on yearling including shoe to 16oz., and a pad is allowed of 1 inch at the heel, Weanling are not addressed because we never shod ours, but you can imagine that the government is not going to sanction any weight on weanling either if it is not allowed on a yearling.
Action devices are not allowed to be twisted chains, or have drop links, in other words on the show grounds these are illegal. These restriction also apply to sales.
The HPA applies to all breeds. It is being selectively enforced currently, but stop and think if any of your breeds' practices fall under the above restrictions.
When the humane groups are done with the TWH they will need a new cause.... and if you think they are just going to go away, stop and start connecting the dots. Why is Vet Marge calling saddlebreds sore.....why is FOSH using the language they are using (Keith Dane head of equine at HSUS was Exec Dir at FOSH first).....

Don't pay any attention to this, don't pay any attention to the term guardian replacing owner, and pretty soon Michele Obama won't be just in your snickers bar, she'll be standing in your barn.....

[SmartAlex]

My jaw dropped... so she sees the BL horses as we see our top WGC's. Here is the"ah ha" part for me. I wonder if a barrel racer or endurance rider sees our showring ASbs with the same disgust we have all been heaping on the biglicks? Is it all just perception?

Yes, you can bank on the fact that many see our horses as frightened freaks and our riders as the worst example of equitation available.

I've seen some comments of people who see the bright, wide eyed look we know as an excited horse enjoying his job to be that of a horse frightened out of his mind, sweating with fear, veins popping with tenseness. And yes it is perception and context. If you saw a Quarter Horse with his eyes as big as saucers, head up in the rafters, eyes and ears focused on a single point you would think "wow, that horse is about to flip his lid". Because if a Quarter Horse gave that expression, odds are it IS about to flip it's lid.

Saddlebreds do have different expression and behavioral context than most people are used to. That's why I think we scare a lot of other breeds in the warm up rings. The hunter/western horse sees a saddle seat horse flagging his tail, snorting in rythm with that big barnyard trot, and they react with fear because they think the herd has spotted something or is organising a revolution and off they go. Just like whitetailed deer react when one of their herd startes and puts it's tail up. They head for the hills.

[Mod #4]

Don't pay any attention to this, don't pay any attention to the term guardian replacing owner, and pretty soon Michele Obama won't be just in your snickers bar, she'll be standing in your barn.....

chuckle... Mona, what page to we drag American Politics in? Anyone starting a pool?
I'm not even a Democrat and this still struck me as... well, nevermind. Carry On.

[longshanks]

ok. I will go with the crazy train called politics.:trainwreck:
If pads are outlawed under the HPA then APHIS will require more tax dollars to pay the extra inspectors needed to enforce the ban.:ban: These extra tax dollars must come from either cuts to entitlement programs:wheelchair: or from borrowing enabled by raising the debt ceiling. Someone get me John Boehner on the phone........:euro:

[SmartAlex]

That would be an excellent use for the 1500 rocket scientists NASA has layed off.

[longshanks]

I smell some jobs being created. We may have just built Obama's 2012 reelection platform.

[SaddlebredMom]

Thanks for the visuals, Dobilover. I'm pretty familiar with both breeds and how they are shod but maybe some can use them for reference. I was only making the point that there are already quite a few "compromised bans" in place.

OK, here's some more food for thought. Broadly speaking, BL prospects are pacier, looser moving individuals. They pads and chains are added to enhance motion but to also change the gait from swinging to square. It follows then that reducing the size of either the shoes or the chains will result in a swinging horse. Therefore, is it possible that reducing or eliminating the shoe size of the BL TWH would put them at an even greater risk for soring? Something will be needed to replace the action of the shoe and the chain. With this in mind, should the shoeing limitations be eliminated all together? Should the weight restrictions on action devices/chains be raised instead of lowered in an attempt to reduce the incidence of soring?

I want to first say "welcome" to this discussion. Your posts have been well thought out, direct and thought provoking. Everything a reasonable discussion needs. :)

As for my mention of a "compromise ban", you have to first remember that we - the ASB people - are coming from a totally non-restricted starting point to being with, so we're new to the party. We have zero bans much less a "compromise ban". So when I think "compromise", I think parameters in size, quantity and weight. To the folks involved in the TWH breed, that is old news. I believe it's this disparity that causes a lot of the dissension between the TWH people and the ASB and others because the starting points on which each of us bases our perspectives are so far apart -- we're starting at 0 and they're already past 50 - 75. This also means that we have differing room to allow for "compromise". Where we would be just starting out, TWH already feel their backs against the wall.

I like your food for thought above. It's a very interesting, and valid, point. I have personally held BL packages in my hands, and have held the action chains and watched them weighed both at the barn and at shows. Despite appearances, they are not, in and of themselves, "torture devices". It's when you add in the wonderful human element that the abuses take place. So banning the inanimate objects isn't the answer (as history has obviously proven out or we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place), because the animate ones will just come up with something new to take it's place. And that is just the sad reality of all this.

[Dobilover]

Just an FYI in 1988 all pads and action device were removed and all shoes were limited to 16oz. The sky already fell once.After much disarray and political pressure, pads and action devices were restored for all breeds. Pads and action device are banned by some breeds but that is not in the law that is a breed choice.

There are legal limits on size of packages, which is 50% of the natural foot is allowed to be added with a toe one inch longer than the heel in a package. All bands must be 1/2 inch below coronary bands. And current law restricts any weight on yearling including shoe to 16oz., and a pad is allowed of 1 inch at the heel, Weanling are not addressed because we never shod ours, but you can imagine that the government is not going to sanction any weight on weanling either if it is not allowed on a yearling.
Action devices are not allowed to be twisted chains, or have drop links, in other words on the show grounds these are illegal. These restriction also apply to sales.
The HPA applies to all breeds. It is being selectively enforced currently, but stop and think if any of your breeds' practices fall under the above restrictions.
When the humane groups are done with the TWH they will need a new cause.... and if you think they are just going to go away, stop and start connecting the dots. Why is Vet Marge calling saddlebreds sore.....why is FOSH using the language they are using (Keith Dane head of equine at HSUS was Exec Dir at FOSH first).....

Don't pay any attention to this, don't pay any attention to the term guardian replacing owner, and pretty soon Michele Obama won't be just in your snickers bar, she'll be standing in your barn.....

"Action devices are not allowed to be twisted chains, or have drop links, in other words on the show grounds these are illegal." So this definitely keeps them from being used at home.

"When the humane groups are done with the TWH they will need a new cause.... and if you think they are just going to go away, stop and start connecting the dots."
When humane groups are done with the BL industry it will be a happy day, because that will mean there is no more soring happening there. Any humane group worth it's weight hopes to work themselves out of a job. I'm sure FOSH would love to no longer be needed.

"The HPA applies to all breeds. It is being selectively enforced currently, but stop and think if any of your breeds' practices fall under the above restrictions. " It does. We're just fine.

"Don't pay any attention to this, don't pay any attention to the term guardian replacing owner, and pretty soon Michele Obama won't be just in your snickers bar, she'll be standing in your barn..." Oh we're paying attention. We're just not alarmed. I'd be proud to have the first lady in my barn, perhaps I could talk her into making the ASB our National Horse, it's already got the right name. :)

[walkinghorseowner]

You mean some of you do not realize that most of this is political..... just out of curiousity, have you ever know a "successful" government program, where the the regulators lost their jobs because they achieved their goals and became uncessary. Nope..... in fact as success becomes more apparent you will notice the the governemnt shift the bar..... ie.. auto makers achieved gas usage quote... now moved mpg up to 56... adds $10,000 per car cost...
read the federal register daily (I get email copies)... see how many regulations are proposed each day...... and then you can figure out why we are a broke country, drowning in debt that can only increase jobs in the government but not the provate sector....
the have politicized the equine industry thru the HPA and the slaughter issue.....issues that the federal government was never authorized or designed to address.

[ASB Stars]

You mean some of you do not realize that most of this is political.....

I'm sorry. For alot of us, politics have nothing to do with it. There is simply a visceral reaction to seeing what the Big Lick folks think is wonderful.

And frankly, if you hadn't opened the door to this, by using such heinous practices on horses, the rest of the show horse world that uses pads with their shoes (but no "soring" of any kind) wouldn't be getting dragged into this, in the first place.:flame:

[longshanks]

Im glad to be here, SBMom; and you are exactly right. It's people, not things, that perpetuate abuse.

[Mona129]

You mean some of you do not realize that most of this is political..... just out of curiousity, have you ever know a "successful" government program, where the the regulators lost their jobs because they achieved their goals and became uncessary. Nope..... in fact as success becomes more apparent you will notice the the governemnt shift the bar..... ie.. auto makers achieved gas usage quote... now moved mpg up to 56... adds $10,000 per car cost...
read the federal register daily (I get email copies)... see how many regulations are proposed each day...... and then you can figure out why we are a broke country, drowning in debt that can only increase jobs in the government but not the provate sector....
the have politicized the equine industry thru the HPA and the slaughter issue.....issues that the federal government was never authorized or designed to address.

Shades of Glenn Beck coming through on that one. and the 56 mpg? cuz that has to do with TWH...LOL...is more about...and wow this is INSANE....more efficiently using a limited fossil fuel resource in an internal combustion tehcnology that was developed over a 100 years ago. Big scary horrible thing...omg!

[longshanks]

Because I am in a pondering frame of mind and posing some food for thought that at least one person seems to appreciate, here's another point I have been considering about the differences between the ASB and the TWH.

Based on his show ring record, Wing Commander is the best 5 gaited stake horse the breed has produced. Six times a WGC from 1948-1953. Now I never saw Wing, but I have seen lots of his pictures and action shots, and I feel pretty safe in saying that should he be reincarnated today, he would still be competitive in his division. Perhaps he wouldn't dominate like he did in his era, but he would still win his share of ribbons in stake company.

The same can be said of the 3 gaited ASB. Take Valley View Supreme. A WC in the 1950's, he could still compete in today's showring and win his share of ribbons.

Now, look at the TWH. At about the same time Wing was dominating the ASB world, Steve Hill and a horse named Talk of the Town was dominating the TWH stake classes. Three times in a row (1951-1953) Talk of the Town was named the WGC TWH. Now were he and Steve to enter a stake class today, not only would he not be competative or get a ribbon, he would look completely out of place and stick out like a sore thumb. In fact this former WGC would be hard pressed to get a ribbon in the pleasure ranks as well.
Even the iconic Midnight Sun, a horse whose movement equated with a big train a'comin' didn't step over 10 or 12 inches high.

Now I'm not sure what to say beyond this and maybe some of you ladies and gents have a few minutes to spare and are computer savy enough to stick some pictures of these horses up here for comparison. I think it will make an interesting comparative study.

[Dobilover]

You mean some of you do not realize that most of this is political..... just out of curiousity, have you ever know a "successful" government program, where the the regulators lost their jobs because they achieved their goals and became uncessary. Nope..... in fact as success becomes more apparent you will notice the the governemnt shift the bar..... ie.. auto makers achieved gas usage quote... now moved mpg up to 56... adds $10,000 per car cost...
read the federal register daily (I get email copies)... see how many regulations are proposed each day...... and then you can figure out why we are a broke country, drowning in debt that can only increase jobs in the government but not the provate sector....
the have politicized the equine industry thru the HPA and the slaughter issue.....issues that the federal government was never authorized or designed to address.

I said humane groups achieving their goals, not government agencies. Another red herring, more chicken little-ism. Don't like government involvement? Stop soring in BL horses. HPA was created specifically to protect sored horses, not padded horses. Any ASB folks here having issues with Federal involvement in our sport?

[Dobilover]

Because I am in a pondering frame of mind and posing some food for thought that at least one person seems to appreciate, here's another point I have been considering about the differences between the ASB and the TWH.

Based on his show ring record, Wing Commander is the best 5 gaited stake horse the breed has produced. Six times a WGC from 1948-1953. Now I never saw Wing, but I have seen lots of his pictures and action shots, and I feel pretty safe in saying that should he be reincarnated today, he would still be competitive in his division. Perhaps he wouldn't dominate like he did in his era, but he would still win his share of ribbons in stake company.

The same can be said of the 3 gaited ASB. Take Valley View Supreme. A WC in the 1950's, he could still compete in today's showring and win his share of ribbons.

Now, look at the TWH. At about the same time Wing was dominating the ASB world, Steve Hill and a horse named Talk of the Town was dominating the TWH stake classes. Three times in a row (1951-1953) Talk of the Town was named the WGC TWH. Now were he and Steve to enter a stake class today, not only would he not be competative or get a ribbon, he would look completely out of place and stick out like a sore thumb. In fact this former WGC would be hard pressed to get a ribbon in the pleasure ranks as well.
Even the iconic Midnight Sun, a horse whose movement equated with a big train a'comin' didn't step over 10 or 12 inches high.

Now I'm not sure what to say beyond this and maybe some of you ladies and gents have a few minutes to spare and are computer savy enough to stick some pictures of these horses up here for comparison. I think it will make an interesting comparative study.

Great points! Here's WGC Talk of the Town:

http://www.walkerswest.com/Champs/TheTalkOfTheTown.htm

And here's a great video with WGC TWH's from the late 1930's on. Talk of the Town is on at the 1:09 mark. Look how they used to canter!!

http://www.walkerswest.com/legends.htm

[SaddlebredMom]

ok. I will go with the crazy train called politics.:trainwreck:
If pads are outlawed under the HPA then APHIS will require more tax dollars to pay the extra inspectors needed to enforce the ban.:ban: These extra tax dollars must come from either cuts to entitlement programs:wheelchair: or from borrowing enabled by raising the debt ceiling. Someone get me John Boehner on the phone........:euro:

Oh my . . . you certainly are a breath of fresh air around here!!

[Dobilover]

Ok, here's a beautiful tribute to Wing Commander:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KelzeIceLZ0


And here's the 2009 & 2010 WGC Courageous Lord:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKH1FWwLw8

Pretty darn similar. :thumb: ;)

[SaddlebredMom]

Because I am in a pondering frame of mind and posing some food for thought that at least one person seems to appreciate, here's another point I have been considering about the differences between the ASB and the TWH.

Based on his show ring record, Wing Commander is the best 5 gaited stake horse the breed has produced. Six times a WGC from 1948-1953. Now I never saw Wing, but I have seen lots of his pictures and action shots, and I feel pretty safe in saying that should he be reincarnated today, he would still be competitive in his division. Perhaps he wouldn't dominate like he did in his era, but he would still win his share of ribbons in stake company.

The same can be said of the 3 gaited ASB. Take Valley View Supreme. A WC in the 1950's, he could still compete in today's showring and win his share of ribbons.

Now, look at the TWH. At about the same time Wing was dominating the ASB world, Steve Hill and a horse named Talk of the Town was dominating the TWH stake classes. Three times in a row (1951-1953) Talk of the Town was named the WGC TWH. Now were he and Steve to enter a stake class today, not only would he not be competative or get a ribbon, he would look completely out of place and stick out like a sore thumb. In fact this former WGC would be hard pressed to get a ribbon in the pleasure ranks as well.
Even the iconic Midnight Sun, a horse whose movement equated with a big train a'comin' didn't step over 10 or 12 inches high.

Now I'm not sure what to say beyond this and maybe some of you ladies and gents have a few minutes to spare and are computer savy enough to stick some pictures of these horses up here for comparison. I think it will make an interesting comparative study.

Well I'm pondering . . . but what I'm pondering is -- what conclusion can you draw from this? That the ASB shoeing and training practices have enabled a stable and consistent show horse throughout the decades, while the TWH have expanded and exaggerated their show horse over the years by their shoeing and training practices?? :confused: I know there are ASB folks who wouldn't agree that yesterday's heroes would succeed in the show ring today. Considering that winning in the show ring is all subjective to begin with, what's fashionable today may be passé tomorrow - shoes and pads included.

[walkinghorseowner]

The comparisons between 1945, 1952 and today in the TWH just shows how our show horses have progressed. Midnight Sun, Talk of the Town were doing all they could do. Today they would not be able to beat most of our park horses (flatshod show type). It just shows how we have genetically enabled our horses be avble to do more.
Are not the atheletes today able to jump higher, pole vault higher, ski faster etc..... why because they have learned advanced training methods, better body conditioning and the equipment is better.
You also have to realize that the TWH breed in the 35-45-55 was still very young. It was not too many years before that we were all showing together in the same classes as the saddlebreds. Our registry wasn't establishe til 1935. In 1945 we were only 1-2 generations past the foundation horses (if you use the average of 8 years per generation, some use 5). Saddlebred registry on the other hand was established in 1891. That is 50 years prior to TWH or 5-6 generations. Geneticly it takes 5 generations to set a trait. The animal we decided to breed in 1975-1980 (the Pride of Midnight type and post HPA) is just coming into the ring with consistant type now. The Midnight Sun/Go boy traits were prevalent in the 60-70'-80's but type was changing and we went to breeding finer, hotter, bigger front ended horses.
I like the saddlebreds, and yes they have not changed much over the years. Now it is up to your breed to decide is it because you are satisified with that look, or have you not been able to improve on it geneticly.
Now if I wanted to fault the saddlebreds of today, from what I have seen... they are in general lacking hock motion. (not that you don't have some that have good hocks), but to me when I was in it back in the 70's... any saddlebred worth trimming or wearing a harness had to bust their guts with their hind feet like the hackneys otherwise you just showed them show pleaseure (no country pleasure or park back then).

[Dobilover]

The comparisons between 1945, 1952 and today in the TWH just shows how our show horses have progressed. Midnight Sun, Talk of the Town were doing all they could do. Today they would not be able to beat most of our park horses (flatshod show type). It just shows how we have genetically enabled our horses be avble to do more.
Are not the atheletes today able to jump higher, pole vault higher, ski faster etc..... why because they have learned advanced training methods, better body conditioning and the equipment is better.
You also have to realize that the TWH breed in the 35-45-55 was still very young. It was not too many years before that we were all showing together in the same classes as the saddlebreds. Our registry wasn't establishe til 1935. In 1945 we were only 1-2 generations past the foundation horses (if you use the average of 8 years per generation, some use 5). Saddlebred registry on the other hand was established in 1891. That is 50 years prior to TWH or 5-6 generations. Geneticly it takes 5 generations to set a trait. The animal we decided to breed in 1975-1980 (the Pride of Midnight type and post HPA) is just coming into the ring with consistant type now. The Midnight Sun/Go boy traits were prevalent in the 60-70'-80's but type was changing and we went to breeding finer, hotter, bigger front ended horses.
I like the saddlebreds, and yes they have not changed much over the years. Now it is up to your breed to decide is it because you are satisified with that look, or have you not been able to improve on it geneticly.
Now if I wanted to fault the saddlebreds of today, from what I have seen... they are in general lacking hock motion. (not that you don't have some that have good hocks), but to me when I was in it back in the 70's... any saddlebred worth trimming or wearing a harness had to bust their guts with their hind feet like the hackneys otherwise you just showed them show pleaseure (no country pleasure or park back then).

Hmmm...if the performance TWH is so much better "genetically enabled", shouldn't it be able to do the BL without being jacked up on blocks? Mechanically and/or painfully enabled would be a more accurate description.

[longshanks]

I have to disagree with your point, WHO, now let me try to explain why. I don't think the difference in the horses of the 50's and the horses winning today can be attributed to genetic progress alone. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your point has no merit. Indeed breeding has contributed to the change in gait. All of the Pride on Pride breeding has produced a prettier, hotter, showier horse. Pride of Midnight's influence as a sire of sires is tremendous. Delight of Pride, Secret Threat, Pride's Generator, and Pride's Beam just to name a few all had significant positive impacts on producing showier horses. No one is saying otherwise. However it is foolish to downplay or outright deny the importance and influence of the big pads, action devices, and eye droppers. And so, it is these factors that combine to give the performance TWH a black eye and turn many equestrians away from or even outright against the big lick horse irregardless of the fact that horses from many breeds may have a Curtis Hamilton Super Stroke nailed to their hoof.
Lastly, you are correct in your assessment of the ASB. Some of the very same issues you raise here are addressed quite honestly and eloquently in the Far Sighted Thoughts From a Near Sighted Horseman post in the Other Articles section.

[Dobilover]

Well I'm pondering . . . but what I'm pondering is -- what conclusion can you draw from this? That the ASB shoeing and training practices have enabled a stable and consistent show horse throughout the decades, while the TWH have expanded and exaggerated their show horse over the years by their shoeing and training practices?? :confused:

Exactly.

I know there are ASB folks who wouldn't agree that yesterday's heroes would succeed in the show ring today. Considering that winning in the show ring is all subjective to begin with, what's fashionable today may be passé tomorrow - shoes and pads included.

Our fashions have changed in ways like habits (saddle suits, bridle colors...) and maybe rooster tails. But I don't think we've strayed terribly far from the original ASB show horse norms in most other ways.

[SaddlebredMom]

Our fashions have changed in ways like habits (saddle suits, bridle colors...) and maybe rooster tails. But I don't think we've strayed terribly far from the original ASB show horse norms in most other ways.

I'm not so sure about that. I personally love the long graceful swan neck of a saddlebred and a more refined overall look of the horse, and have seen a shift to a shorter thicker/wider neck and more stockier build. The emphasis on which aspect is valued most - headset vs. above-level motion - also seems to eb and flow.

[walkinghorseowner]

Of course the pads play a part(remeber I likened them to the atheletes who had better equipemnt (fiberglass poles, better skis running shoes etc), but the horse has to be able to utilize the equipment. He has to have the bre in gait and the conformation and the tenperament. Again you can put on a pair of pointe shoes and just fall on your face, while my daughter can put on a pair of pointe shoes, sling her one leg over her head and spin on the other..... now is that artificial because she has pointe shoes on or is she geneticly gifted, physicly developed and trained to utilize that pointe shoe to be able to do that.

And once again I took the time to explain genetics, development etc and Dobilover needs to come back with a snarky comment.

I would also like to note, that in the majority of for sale ads(and some just look how great this horse is ads) in the asb that I have seen, the horses are wearing chains allround, or stretchies on the front and chains behind. I have even seen this in the saddle horse report. Now the only difference I see, is that the TWH people just go ahead a wear them in the showring(why not we work them with em, we want them to go liek they are wearing them so we made them legal equipment), while you want to show the action that they can do with them to sell them and advertise them, but take them off in the ring. Just an observation.
Really, if we had called the chain a bracelet and plated in in gold to begin with, dropped a few rhinestones on em...you'd all be wanting a pair for your horse.

[Dobilover]

Of course the pads play a part(remeber I likened them to the atheletes who had better equipemnt (fiberglass poles, better skis running shoes etc), but the horse has to be able to utilize the equipment. He has to have the bre in gait and the conformation and the tenperament. Again you can put on a pair of pointe shoes and just fall on your face, while my daughter can put on a pair of pointe shoes, sling her one leg over her head and spin on the other..... now is that artificial because she has pointe shoes on or is she geneticly gifted, physicly developed and trained to utilize that pointe shoe to be able to do that.

And once again I took the time to explain genetics, development etc and Dobilover needs to come back with a snarky comment.

I would also like to note, that in the majority of for sale ads(and some just look how great this horse is ads) in the asb that I have seen, the horses are wearing chains allround, or stretchies on the front and chains behind. I have even seen this in the saddle horse report. Now the only difference I see, is that the TWH people just go ahead a wear them in the showring(why not we work them with em, we want them to go liek they are wearing them so we made them legal equipment), while you want to show the action that they can do with them to sell them and advertise them, but take them off in the ring. Just an observation.
Really, if we had called the chain a bracelet and plated in in gold to begin with, dropped a few rhinestones on em...you'd all be wanting a pair for your horse.

A. Your daughter (and actually mine, who also happens to be a dancer) chose to put the shoes on in the first place and can choose to remove them when they're done dancing. Imagine if they couldn't take them off? Even if they just walked in them they'd eventually ruin their feet. Which btw, happens to most old ballerinas anyway. But at least they knew what they were in for. Unlike BL horses.

B. It's already been pointed out here that although ASB's also utilize chains in training, ours are much lighter than BL chains, and (a huge AND) they're not banging against pasterns and fetlocks that are already sore from getting a "fix". It has also been previously stated that stretchies when used properly (correct length for each individual horse, only used sparingly) help to develop muscle and cause no harm. They're attached to fleece padded cuffs.

C. I get a little edgy when people try to whiz on my head and tell me it's raining.

[Dobilover]

I'm not so sure about that. I personally love the long graceful swan neck of a saddlebred and a more refined overall look of the horse, and have seen a shift to a shorter thicker/wider neck and more stockier build. The emphasis on which aspect is valued most - headset vs. above-level motion - also seems to eb and flow.

I can see your point. But even with changes in "typey" breeding, our basic gaits are still similar and readily recognizable between videos from 60 years ago and today. I was blown away by how much different the BL horses have become from what they were. What a beautiful canter in those old films.

[longshanks]

The point I am trying to make here is that if the late great horseman Tom Bass were to rise from the grave and go to the Shelbyville Horse show, he would recognize the horses for what they were. Sure they may some differences. It would be illogical to think otherwise. However he would recognize the gaits of the five gaited horses. He would understand the criteria of a Fine Harness horse regardless of whether their necks were longer or shorter than what he preferred. A 3 gaited horse is still a 3 gaited horse irregardless of whether he has a full or roached tail. Overall the types of ASB haven't changed that much.
The same cannot be said of the TWH. As I set here in my office I am looking at a Billie Nipper painting. Featured on that painting are several places, people and horses key to the history of the TWH. Among them are Fred Walker and Midnight Sun, Floyd Carothers and Strolling Jim, Allen F1, the Walking Horse Hotel. Because of the extremes to which the show ring demands of the TWH have been taken, I doubt that anyone in that picture would recognize what is currently desirable in a BL TWH.

[ASB Stars]

A big ol' stack of pads is not progress in equipment. C'mon, at least give us something that resembles a rational argument. Wait! There aren't any!

And, sadly, Wing, and even My MY couldn't win again today. Todays showhorse is all about a completely vertical neckset, and must be as pretty as possible. I've had this discussion with many breeders , trainers, and judges, and with a particular BNT who was also a many time WGC winner, and judge. Things just aren't the same as they were. More to the point, Will Shriver and Yorktown probably wouldn't get a look. Seriously. And I find that really, really sad.

[asbridertb]

Ok, here's a beautiful tribute to Wing Commander:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KelzeIceLZ0


And here's the 2009 & 2010 WGC Courageous Lord:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKH1FWwLw8

Pretty darn similar. :thumb: ;)

I have to disagree. I've seen original, unretouched photos of 40's era show horses and many were forward headed, short necked, coarse animals trotting barely level - and their retouched photos showed upheaded, swan necked, high stepping lovely things. Those photos of Wing are HEAVILY retouched and the paintings are all artistic idolizations. I highly doubt he had that kind of motion or headset. He would likely NOT be competitive today. Just look at videos of our WGCs from the 70s-80s. Even those horses were inferior to what's showing today - there's no way a horse from 40 years BEFORE that was BETTER. It's also suspected Wing was half Standardbred, not a full ASB.

[3mares]

I would also like to note, that in the majority of for sale ads(and some just Ulook how great this horse is ads) in the asb that I have seen, the horses are wearing chains allround, or stretchies on the front and chains behind. I have even seen this in the saddle horse report. Now the only difference I see, is that the TWH people just go ahead a wear them in the showring(why not we work them with em, we want them to go liek they are wearing them so we made them legal equipment), while you want to show the action that they can do with them to sell them and advertise them, but take them off in the ring. Just an observation.
Really, if we had called the chain a bracelet and plated in in gold to begin with, dropped a few rhinestones on em...you'd all be wanting a pair for your horse.

This is a good point and I have to agree with this. I have just been sitting back watching the show to see how the timeline progresses. WHO - I have been reading this thread without any preconceived notions about TWH or big lick because I don't know anything. You have presented a lot of good information here and the only thing I have noticed is that nobody will listen to what you have to say. Right now you are being treated the same way us ASB people get treated by sport horse, QH, etc. people in that it really doesn't matter what you say, everybody already thinks it is wrong so it must be wrong. I do commend you for coming back to keep defending yourself.

[longshanks]

Well, I guess I've said all I can say here. I threw in my 2cents worth and that's about all my opinion is worth. So, for now, I'm outta here. There's no use in :beatadeadhorse:

[Dobilover]

This is a good point and I have to agree with this. I have just been sitting back watching the show to see how the timeline progresses. WHO - I have been reading this thread without any preconceived notions about TWH or big lick because I don't know anything. You have presented a lot of good information here and the only thing I have noticed is that nobody will listen to what you have to say. Right now you are being treated the same way us ASB people get treated by sport horse, QH, etc. people in that it really doesn't matter what you say, everybody already thinks it is wrong so it must be wrong. I do commend you for coming back to keep defending yourself.

3Mares we have all "listened" to WHO. But we can't sit by and say nothing if all of that "good" information ain't good, or informative. Much of it is the practiced excuses routinely given by those in support of the BL industry. WHO has even said that she (I think WHO is a she, if not I apologize) doesn't care what we think of her sport/style/practice, she does and that's all that matters. And many of us either know first hand or from very reliable sources what goes on in too many BL barns (not all, but waaaay too many). So yes, we will continue to take her to task if she continues to tell us how it is that 1+1 can equal 3.

[Dobilover]

Well, I guess I've said all I can say here. I threw in my 2cents worth and that's about all my opinion is worth. So, for now, I'm outta here. There's no use in :beatadeadhorse:

I for one, have really appreciated your input longshanks. Thanks.

[Silly Filly]

This is a good point and I have to agree with this. I have just been sitting back watching the show to see how the timeline progresses. WHO - I have been reading this thread without any preconceived notions about TWH or big lick because I don't know anything. You have presented a lot of good information here and the only thing I have noticed is that nobody will listen to what you have to say. Right now you are being treated the same way us ASB people get treated by sport horse, QH, etc. people in that it really doesn't matter what you say, everybody already thinks it is wrong so it must be wrong. I do commend you for coming back to keep defending yourself.

Ditto, great post 3mares!:cheers:

[SaddlebredMom]

Well, I guess I've said all I can say here. I threw in my 2cents worth and that's about all my opinion is worth. So, for now, I'm outta here. There's no use in :beatadeadhorse:

Wait!! Don't leave yet!! We're on the LAST page to meet our timeline!! :tooth:

(Seriously though, I do appreciate your rational input on this thread. :) )

[SmartAlex]

I have to disagree. I've seen original, unretouched photos of 40's era show horses and many were forward headed, short necked, coarse animals trotting barely level - and their retouched photos showed upheaded, swan necked, high stepping lovely things. Those photos of Wing are HEAVILY retouched and the paintings are all artistic idolizations. I highly doubt he had that kind of motion or headset. He would likely NOT be competitive today. Just look at videos of our WGCs from the 70s-80s. Even those horses were inferior to what's showing today - there's no way a horse from 40 years BEFORE that was BETTER. It's also suspected Wing was half Standardbred, not a full ASB.

Agreed. There was little truth in advertising. Buy the Saddlebred Stars DVD from the Museum (it is finally priced to sell) and watch the footage of Vendetta, Stonewall King and other old old champions. We have come light years ahead. Granted, I would still gladly take home Oak Hill Chief or Yorktown, and many times the horse in real life created a lot more drama than some old 8mm film can capture, but folks, it is a whole new ball game.

As for the retouched photos... you don't really think every stallion from the late 40s through the mid 70s really looked alike do you? :blink: Heck I think even old Geo F Morris took some liberties in his painting.

[SaddlebredMom]

Originally Posted by walkinghorseowner

I would also like to note, that in the majority of for sale ads(and some just Ulook how great this horse is ads) in the asb that I have seen, the horses are wearing chains allround, or stretchies on the front and chains behind. I have even seen this in the saddle horse report. Now the only difference I see, is that the TWH people just go ahead a wear them in the showring(why not we work them with em, we want them to go liek they are wearing them so we made them legal equipment), while you want to show the action that they can do with them to sell them and advertise them, but take them off in the ring. Just an observation.
Really, if we had called the chain a bracelet and plated in in gold to begin with, dropped a few rhinestones on em...you'd all be wanting a pair for your horse.

This is a good point and I have to agree with this. I have just been sitting back watching the show to see how the timeline progresses. WHO - I have been reading this thread without any preconceived notions about TWH or big lick because I don't know anything. You have presented a lot of good information here and the only thing I have noticed is that nobody will listen to what you have to say. Right now you are being treated the same way us ASB people get treated by sport horse, QH, etc. people in that it really doesn't matter what you say, everybody already thinks it is wrong so it must be wrong. I do commend you for coming back to keep defending yourself.

It's not that nobody is listening. I am. I appreciate them wanting us to be aware of what's going on out there re: pads and action devices. But that's what it should be, an awareness and not a Chicken Little episode. As to the BL, to each their own. We have to have mutual tolerance of each other's preference and painting everyone with the same brush is wrong no matter if it's TWH, ASB, or any other breed. There are good eggs and bad eggs in every breed and all of us are living in a great big glass house. However, I think the one thing that everyone that's participated in this discussion can agree on is that soring of any nature has got to end. How we get to that point is obviously still up for debate.

[Dobilover]

It's not that nobody is listening. I am. I appreciate them wanting us to be aware of what's going on out there re: pads and action devices. But that's what it should be, an awareness and not a Chicken Little episode. As to the BL, to each their own. We have to have mutual tolerance of each other's preference and painting everyone with the same brush is wrong no matter if it's TWH, ASB, or any other breed. There are good eggs and bad eggs in every breed and all of us are living in a great big glass house. However, I think the one thing that everyone that's participated in this discussion can agree on is that soring of any nature has got to end. How we get to that point is obviously still up for debate.

Here! Here! (Ok, did that bump us over to page 26?)

[ASB Stars]

I have read each and every word. Amongst the problems I have with the BL horses- Math.

Yes, math. My horses are all barefoot (well, except one) and their toe lengths vary from 3.75" to 4.25". Now, if a horse was to have a 5" foot, with their shoe, this would mean that the BL TWH people could have a 7" foot on that horse- all in. If they could grow a 6" toe...well, you get my point. I am sure that there are limitations on this- at least, I hope that there are- but we are at the ridiculously excessive point for me, already....

[walkinghorseowner]

As far as giving a horse a choice....

Really when was the last time you asked that stud colt if he realllllly wanted to be gelded...... (I bet he just jumped up and down and said sure, I'd rather be ridden, and shown than breed a mare)

How many horses choose to be ridden over standing in the pasture eating grass and doing nothin...(really they don't actually need the exercise)

Did you ask that mare you bred if the stud you used was her "choice", maybe she preferred the black over the chestnut.....
or even if she really wanted to have another foal.... (you know they ruin your figure)

Horses are animals and property, they have no "choice"

But we have the choice to pick the ones most suitable for each task, so if you want a good showhorse you pick on that is suited for it.

[walkinghorseowner]

When does it go from being aware to it being a chicken little moment...... anyone that has followed HSUS and the other animal rights groups can track that many times you don't get an "awareness moment" before the sky falls. The animal rights folks are perpetually working to slide thru legislation at the state, local and federal level....... just research some of the stuff that goes down. Much of it you won't hear about until after it is law..... it is hard to unring a bell.....

[Dobilover]

As far as giving a horse a choice....

Really when was the last time you asked that stud colt if he realllllly wanted to be gelded...... (I bet he just jumped up and down and said sure, I'd rather be ridden, and shown than breed a mare)

How many horses choose to be ridden over standing in the pasture eating grass and doing nothin...(really they don't actually need the exercise)

Did you ask that mare you bred if the stud you used was her "choice", maybe she preferred the black over the chestnut.....
or even if she really wanted to have another foal.... (you know they ruin your figure)

Horses are animals and property, they have no "choice"

But we have the choice to pick the ones most suitable for each task, so if you want a good showhorse you pick on that is suited for it.

We've already had the "horses are property with no choices" thread. Ended poorly. :topicclosed:

As for your examples, geldings lead more peaceful lives than do studs, and they aren't gelded every single day of their lives. And to answer your question, my horse actually enjoys getting out to work. If he's in a the pasture he'll leave the herd for my company. The rest of your examples are anthropomorphic and not really relevent. My point is that no living creature should endure purposely inflicted pain for the sake of pain.

To put it simply, it is common (not ubiquitous, but absolutely common) in the BL world for owners/trainers to WANT their horses to feel pain, because the pain itself is the means to an end. A horse is "fixed" so that he'll hurt. If I geld or breed or even nicked a tail of a horse (which I personally wouldn't do, but just for the sake of this argument) I'm not doing those things for the pain. Whatever pain might be involved is an unavoidable circumstance that will quickly pass and, odds are, with no long term negative impact on the horse. I wish that the pain wasn't involved at all, but for the greater good I'm going to geld/breed/float/vaccinate/work (or whatever) my horse.

And finally, there are horses suited for dressage, horses suited for saddle seat, horses suited for endurance and horses suited to plow a field, but there is no horse suited for having their front feet jacked 5 inches higher off the ground than their back for most of their careers. There is no horse suited for walking around on it's hocks. And there certainly is no horse suited for having their flesh cooked in mustard oil and DMSO.

[SmartAlex]

How many horses choose to be ridden over standing in the pasture eating grass and doing nothin...(really they don't actually need the exercise).

Many DO need the exercise. We have created them that way over years of selective breeding and created so many metabolic issues that would either not be created, not be triggered, or not be survived in the wild. Then we put them in lush pastures (also man made) where they have 1000 times too much food available, and life is so easy for them the only thing they have left to do is keel over and bloat.

We created this. We have to be good stewards.

And my horses do choose to be ridden when they come galloping to the barn. They know what comes next. They look forward to it.

[walkinghorseowner]

" it is common (not ubiquitous, but absolutely common) in the BL world for owners/trainers to WANT their horses to feel pain"


Well it is fixin to degenerate here again....

There is an inspection process... something that keeps getting overlooked.It is pretty darn effective. You have a whole lot of personal likes and dislikes, opinions, and even knoweledge of the inner feelings of owners and trainers.....it must be good to be omniscient.

Fact, all TWH are inspected before and many after showing. Fact out of over between 1 and 2 million horses over the past 40 years only a handful have been found non compliant with the law.

Your example of horses choosing (as in the way you presented it) is also anthropomorphic. Horses are ruled by instinct, more than "choice" as we humans know it.
You have decided it is OK to inflict pain if in your opinion it is "just". Perhaps the bit should be foregone since that is the first thing that inflicts pain (oh yes I know a horse just "wants" to stop and turn etc.... the fact that a metal bar is sitting/being pulled across his gums has nothin to do with it...... (the only difference between "pressure" and pain is in the eye of the beholder). Your "choosing" argument does not hold water.