Training a horse to show ..How to tell if a horse is capable of it.

[iheartasb]

For those who know I do have a rescue saddlebred who was an ex amish horse.He is with me for the last 4mths now and is now physically in a position to start training.(was underweight before_)

First of all the horse....he is 11 years old good looking and 16 hands tall.he does have a decent headset,but not too high either,Some motion is his front legs,but he is just wearing kegs at this point .He is however lazy and calm very sweet ,considerate of his rider and needs to be pushed somewhat to work.Left alone in a field he will trot with his knees upto his chest and head up in the air,but not in the ring with a rider or on a lunge line.:wub:

I was wondering what criteria do you use in order to judge if a horse could be capable of showing .I was thinking Country pleasure for him but I am not really sure if he is a little too old to learn now .Also he pulls on the bit constantly if you try to set his head (but will raise his head some) ,so sometimes I wonder if he is not comfortable in a higher headset.

Any comments or advise in this respect? I am just wondering if it is worth the time and finances to train him or just use him as a pleasure horse .thanks!

[sdlbredfan]

Do you have some pix or video? Bear in mind, raising the head is not done by pulling on the reins, and a horse cannot pull unless a human is also pulling on him. Impulsion (remember the engine is in the rear, LOL) is what brings the horse's head up, not reins. The part where finesse comes in, is channeling that energy from the motor into collection and thereby, elevation of the front. That collection cannot happen until the horse is sufficiently strong, muscularly developed to carry itself in a collected frame. Basically, you are getting ahead of this horse's timeline considering his history, to be at all concerned with where his head is when you are riding him. I hope that helps, am sure others will chime in with similar or perhaps more detailed advice.
Jeanie

[iheartasb]

I agree.this horse does have a weak backend and I did a lot of lunging before to built it with side reins etc .he has gotten much better and filled out as before you could see his tail bone and some back vertebrea due to weakness. but then I was told by 2 other saddleseat riders that i would lower his head too much doing that with side reins and I stopped doing that? I am a little confused.

[sdlbredfan]

I am sorry I don't have time to write much more, but you are on the right track to encourage the horse to stretch his head out and down (note, I did not say force his head down, but allow out and downward movement) because that is part of how the horse's loin and back become stronger. Considering he was an ex-Amish horse and underfed too, this horse needs some patient rehabbing, IMO. I am sure he will be just fine for CP classes by Summer, and allowing him to put his head wherever is most comfy for him now will not 'ruin' him for a having a higher head carriage later on.
Jeanie

[iheartasb]

I am sorry I don't have time to write much more, but you are on the right track to encourage the horse to stretch his head out and down (note, I did not say force his head down, but allow out and downward movement) because that is part of how the horse's loin and back become stronger. Considering he was an ex-Amish horse and underfed too, this horse needs some patient rehabbing, IMO. I am sure he will be just fine for CP classes by Summer, and allowing him to put his head wherever is most comfy for him now will not 'ruin' him for a having a higher head carriage later on.
Jeanie

Thank you.That would be awesome if he could be ready in a year or so I am not in a hurry to put him in the ring.

[3kidsandahorse]

Left alone in a field he will trot with his knees upto his chest and head up in the air,but not in the ring with a rider or on a lunge line.:wub:


This is telling to me, though I'm not a trainer. I also have a rescue, and I had a mare that needed help with this.

To raise a head or front legs, guess where the weight of the horse has to shift? To the back end, which then must shift positions a bit to take it. The horse naturally carries most of its weight on the front legs, so this is a change that we ask (in some cases, try to force :sad: ) our ASB's to do in order to get that lofty front end carriage.

By your quote, I'm seeing a horse that doesn't have the butt muscle to balance a rider and work up under himself like he needs to, or is limited in his impulsion by the lunge line. So what saddlebred fan said is 150% correct. He needs to lower his head (not quite to his knees but close) and stretch his back muscles to enable him to work under himself. My mare was lined like this many times to get her up under herself. Driving is also a good exercise if you or your horse (I'm guessing he knows how, being ex-Amish :tooth: ) can do it, though don't check the head high at all. That will build muscle but not stretch the back muscles like lining will.

If you have an indoor place to work him, you should be fine to do these things this winter, and you will have a "new" horse by early spring.

[SmartAlex]

but then I was told by 2 other saddleseat riders that i would lower his head too much doing that with side reins and I stopped doing that? I am a little confused.


Start with the head down low, and as the horse build strength and confidence, bring it up and let him look.

[Mona129]

...because our horses, just like any other horse, in order to do its gaits well, must be rounded. A quarterhorse, would round OVER, lift the back, suck up the belly. ASb's in saddleseat, done right, are also rounded, but rounded UP and in a high state of collection (high as in elevated with the back end underneath and the front end lifted). So you start low, let them develop the muscling and then eventually with enough conditioning you start to raise the horse up, something our horses are uniquely capable of doing.

One thing not being discussed fully...yet...is Balance. a Horse can balance itself at the gaits. which is what you are seeing when he's loose. But, it takes miles strength and time to be able to do the same thing with a rider shifting around on top of them. Letting the horse learn to balance you and get stronger at it is the very first fundamental part of letting the horse work more loosely and with the head down....Also make sure to allow the horse some reallly nose to the ground stretches every 3 minutes and encourage it especially at the trot and canter, not just the walk

[3kidsandahorse]

I don't know where the OP lives, but we have some BIG hills here. I trail rode my rescue often this fall, and going up those hills is MAGIC for both developing a hind end and stretching the back. I let him have his head, and he would drop it below his knees (and he's normally pretty high-headed) to haul me up those hills. If you live in a hilly area, and the weather ever warms up :tongue_smilie: I would take him on a trail ride. Great for mind and body, and that's not normally free!

[Mona129]

I don't know where the OP lives, but we have some BIG hills here. I trail rode my rescue often this fall, and going up those hills is MAGIC for both developing a hind end and stretching the back. I let him have his head, and he would drop it below his knees (and he's normally pretty high-headed) to haul me up those hills. If you live in a hilly area, and the weather ever warms up :tongue_smilie: I would take him on a trail ride. Great for mind and body, and that's not normally free!

A MILLION times over ...YES!!!!!
Hills and poles are my two favoritist secret weapons...lol....but not so secret! :wub:

[iheartasb]

I don't know where the OP lives, but we have some BIG hills here. I trail rode my rescue often this fall, and going up those hills is MAGIC for both developing a hind end and stretching the back. I let him have his head, and he would drop it below his knees (and he's normally pretty high-headed) to haul me up those hills. If you live in a hilly area, and the weather ever warms up :tongue_smilie: I would take him on a trail ride. Great for mind and body, and that's not normally free!

We do have hills and he is let in a pasture 3x a week with hills which he runs up and down whenever he feels like.That has helped his behind somewhat .The barn owner (non asb person) has seen him numerous times running in a show horse style as well as me so I was still a bit puzzled why he won't do it in a ring.I live in NC with a moderate climate except for Dec and Jan so we can works outdoors.The only thing I am afraid of him slipping on the trails otherwise I would ride him up and down no problem.He has kegs on him right now.

[3kidsandahorse]

We do have hills and he is let in a pasture 3x a week with hills which he runs up and down whenever he feels like.That has helped his behind somewhat .The barn owner (non asb person) has seen him numerous times running in a show horse style as well as me so I was still a bit puzzled why he won't do it in a ring.I live in NC with a moderate climate except for Dec and Jan so we can works outdoors.The only thing I am afraid of him slipping on the trails otherwise I would ride him up and down no problem.He has kegs on him right now.

To a nonasb person in my 2nd barn, any horse with his head above his withers is a show horse. Seriously. I don't have a giraffe at the QH barn, but everyone talks about how HIGH his head is. Yeah, it's pretty, but it's not freakish.

Try running up a hill, then run the same hill with a 40 lb backpack. A lot harder, huh? That's the difference in carrying dead weight. Try carrying a live person who's moving, like a small nephew, niece or cousin. That's why your horse can't do it yet. Thankfully he wants to, and can, so you shouldn't have much trouble.

It will take several months to put a muscular hind end on a horse on the flat. It will take somewhat less time (half, I'm saying) to put a muscled hind end riding on hills. If he's fairly good wtih his feet, let him go on a trail. Horses have been running on bare paths for a few centures now. :) Mine has kegs front, barefoot behind. He's experienced and I just loosen the reins going uphill and grab mane. He has no mane in spots to prove it. :oops:

Lucky you for living in NC. Get out on the trails, enjoy your horse, and start really show training in February or March.

[wstrngrl]

I agree.this horse does have a weak backend and I did a lot of lunging before to built it with side reins etc .he has gotten much better and filled out as before you could see his tail bone and some back vertebrea due to weakness. but then I was told by 2 other saddleseat riders that i would lower his head too much doing that with side reins and I stopped doing that? I am a little confused.

Don't ever believe that BS. Working 'long and low' is good for any horse in any discipline.

That said, I'm not a big fan of side reins, as they don't allow enough communication for me. But if you do use them; on a lunge line; remember to shorten the inside rein alittle to allow the horse to bend properly around the circle. And keep an eye that he's not just leaning into the reins.

I would prefer to long-line with the lines running low; and the outside line running back around the horse's hocks. Or drive at slow speed without an overcheck, and allow/encourage him to lower his head. I never drive with an overcheck unless I plan to show the horse driving, then it's only occasionally.

With longlinging and driving you can feel what the horse is doing in the mouth, and work on bending/loosening him up. Both should be done on a fairly light rein, since you want the horse to balance himself and not rely on you to hold him up.

If you need some reassurance that 'long and low' will not mess him up as a saddle seat horse: I worked this horse more 'long and low' than I did 'high and collected'; both under saddle and in long-lines; and in a fat solid-rubber mullen or copper mullen snaffle. It completely changed the way he moved; from sucked back with short and choppy strides; to coming to the bit and striding out with purpose (and frankly from an awful horse to ride, to a BLAST to ride ;) )

http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/47547/2388316730033872083S500x500Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/45554/2562821730033872083S500x500Q85.jpg

(ps - we have no hills here, so I don't have that option LOL)

[iheartasb]

Don't ever believe that BS. Working 'long and low' is good for any horse in any discipline.

That said, I'm not a big fan of side reins, as they don't allow enough communication for me. But if you do use them; on a lunge line; remember to shorten the inside rein alittle to allow the horse to bend properly around the circle. And keep an eye that he's not just leaning into the reins.

I would prefer to long-line with the lines running low; and the outside line running back around the horse's hocks. Or drive at slow speed without an overcheck, and allow/encourage him to lower his head. I never drive with an overcheck unless I plan to show the horse driving, then it's only occasionally.

With longlinging and driving you can feel what the horse is doing in the mouth, and work on bending/loosening him up. Both should be done on a fairly light rein, since you want the horse to balance himself and not rely on you to hold him up.

If you need some reassurance that 'long and low' will not mess him up as a saddle seat horse: I worked this horse more 'long and low' than I did 'high and collected'; both under saddle and in long-lines; and in a fat solid-rubber mullen or copper mullen snaffle. It completely changed the way he moved; from sucked back with short and choppy strides; to coming to the bit and striding out with purpose (and frankly from an awful horse to ride, to a BLAST to ride ;) )



(ps - we have no hills here, so I don't have that option LOL)

Lovely pics ! I would die to have my horse move like that very impressive !

PS how long did it take for you to see an improvment.If I try to long line him he keeps him head up more than I want him to.I lunge him with a side reins and the inside rein tried a little tighter so he drops his head.

[3kidsandahorse]

Or drive at slow speed without an overcheck, and allow/encourage him to lower his head. I never drive with an overcheck unless I plan to show the horse driving, then it's only occasionally.

Have you ever had a safety issue with this? There's several stories floating around about horses giving a person a face shave in the cart :blink: and I thought the check was to help prevent that.

And Amanda, you're welcome to come get some of our hills--we've plenty!

[SmartAlex]

The biggest risk of driving without a check is if your shafts are too long, and you don't have your horse hooked correctly so the shafts stick out in front of the point of the shoulder, the horse can drop a rein under the point of the shaft.

If the horse is too strong with his head down, then just use draw reins.

[wstrngrl]

Have you ever had a safety issue with this? There's several stories floating around about horses giving a person a face shave in the cart :blink: and I thought the check was to help prevent that.

And Amanda, you're welcome to come get some of our hills--we've plenty!

LOL, what's a face shave? :p

No, never had a safety issue. The only issue I've really had in a cart is when Sam flipped over, and that's when his overcheck and/or crupper was too tight (not sure which or what, cos I had to undo every reachable buckle to get the harness off enough to get him up off the ground.) I've had a few horses buck/kick, but they also had overchecks on.

iheartasb - as far as his forward movement; it took two days after taking him out of the twisted wire and bike chain snaffles he had been working in ;) For the rest, it took a few weeks, but remember he was already in shape when I started.

When you long line, are you running the lines through the lowest ring possible; with the line running straight from bit, though ring, to your hand? with the outside rein down around the hocks and not up over his back?

My favorite way to get a horse to stretch out in the lines is to do a straight rein on the outside; and then on the inside run the line from your hand, through the lowest ring, through the bit, then snapped to a higher ring. Then I work on bending the horse to the inside with that rein, while keeping him to the outside of the circle with the other. with more of a bend-hold a few strides-straighten for a few strides-bend rather than trying to hold a bend for a long time.

[3kidsandahorse]

Shaving your face with the back hooves. Sometimes results in too much being taken off. :tongue_smilie:

[SmartAlex]

Then they don't need an overcheck, they need a kick strap!

[3kidsandahorse]

iheartasb - as far as his forward movement; it took two days after taking him out of the twisted wire and bike chain snaffles he had been working in ;) .


My big horse was kinda like Sam. He wasn't worked in anything harsher than a twisted wire but it (or rather the hands attached to it) did make him suck back. A rubber snaffle worked really well for him as well.

OP, does your horse suck back off the bit?

[iheartasb]

My big horse was kinda like Sam. He wasn't worked in anything harsher than a twisted wire but it (or rather the hands attached to it) did make him suck back. A rubber snaffle worked really well for him as well.

OP, does your horse suck back off the bit?


yes he hates the bit .I got his teeth done,it improved a little but he still despises it.A smoth snaffle with fruit roll ups on it makes it a little easier :glare:

[Fanfare]

Great product for cusioning bits.
http://www.ehorseequipment.com/product.aspx?no=490200&sort=&page=&cid=96

[3kidsandahorse]

When you are riding him, does he resist contact by pulling his chin to his chest?

[Mona129]

YES latex bit wrap is a wonderful thing! most people outside the saddle seat world don't know about it and or use it. I used that on my three yr olds low port curb in his double bridle, worked very well.

Another bit to try is an Aurigan loose ring french link "lozenge" bit, thats about as soft as they come outside of rubber, very kind to the mouth, I've heard pro Aurigan metal and anti aurigan...I've found mine to like the taste.

I too am interested in how he interacts with his bitting.

[iheartasb]

When you are riding him, does he resist contact by pulling his chin to his chest?

no he constantly tries to pull the reins out of my hands with jerking movements of his head.

[shayna]

My horse is also a rescue and he has a really weak boney butt too... He has put on some weight since I've had him (he wasn't extremely underweight but he definitely needed to put on a little) I won't work him til spring but when I do, I need to build up his back end... So what you are saying is to do that I should encourage (not force but direct) his head down while we work for a while?

[iheartasb]

Today I took him out on the trails and I think he did really good.It seems he has been doing them before as he followed the trail and hauled my up 4-5 hills steadily and slowly.I should have done that earlier.It was fun !He is a steady sweet horse but does seem to have a lack of energy what i've noticed.wondering if should switch his feed to Triple crown instead of strategy?