EPM ?????'s

[Chardonnay]

There is a mare on the farm I work at that has EPM. She has finished her meds and is in recovery. She is on turnout with an antique gelding for company.
I have googled EPM and dont come up with anything for a horse already in recovery.
My question is, will she ever stop wobbling? Her wobble is so bad that she looks like a sloppy racking horse most of the time. Although yesterday she trotted in a circle!! They have been talking about doing some work to help her, I just dont know what exercises I can do with her.
Do horses with EPM ever test negative again?
I would like to take the time to help her ger back to "normal", what ever that will be for her.
If anyone has info on recovery for an EPM horse I would VERY much appriciate it.
Any training ideas?
I wonder if just giving her a rub down and asking her to follow my hand for a treat could help?
This mare has really stolen my heart and deserves someone to take the time with her.:wub:

[Chardonnay]

Really! No one knows anything. I know that ther are vets on here. Hopefully they arent too busy to give me some insight. I was told that if she is still wobbly that the treatment didnt work and she will need at least 1 more. Or maybe its wobblers? :helpsmilie:
If I had the $, I would call MY vet and ask his opinion. But Im broke!

She is TOO COOL and I NEED to help her, everyone seems to have wrote her off. NOT ME!!!:sneaky2:

[Roy4Ever]

I'd love to help you out, unfortunately I don't know much about treating horses with EPM beyond the really expensive medicine that she probably has already had. Sorry!

[goldenchild]

I will try and answer your questions for you as best I can!
Ok, so depending on the severity of her condition, she may never recover completely. According to Merck, only 25% of horses will recover completely. Spinal cord damage is never good. Whether or not she will ever test negative again depends on the test you use. If you let me know which one I can find out for you. Depending on her lesions, it could take up to a year for them to heal. So while you may see improvement, she may not be ready to go on to exercising more than she is already doing in the field. Here is an article I found http://www.epmhorse.org/Rehabilitation/Early_Rehab.htm that may help you. I suggest if you want to start her back to exercise you come up with a plan with your veterinarian. Hope all goes well!

[Hey4horses]

Thank you for posting that link to that EPM website. It is very informative.

[Chardonnay]

goldenchild- Thank You very much for the article. I see you have been a menber for quite a while and don't post much. Thank you for posting this time. Winnie will appriciate it. Its now in my favorites.:yes:

[goldenchild]

No problem! Keep us updated on how she does!

[Cynthia]

A lot depends on the degree of damage to the nervous system. Nerves are notoriously bad for not regrowing or being repaired, especially those of the central nervous system. If the damage to the CNS is minor, then your horse may recover completely or nearly so, although if repair happens, it is usually a slow process.

I had a horse who contracted EPM when she was 3-4, and we treated her as soon as we identified the illness. The damage to her nervous system was severe enough that she was never able to show again, because she couldn't trot squarely while keeping a good headset. If we let her trot in a less collected frame, without asking for any particular headset, she was comfortable and happy after she had healed as much as she was going to. She did regain her muscle bulk and tone (her hindquarters had atrophied quite a lot) just fine though.

[pwrpfflynn]

I had a 7 yr old mare that was diagnoised last June with EPM. She was only a grade one or two on the vets scale of 5. They told me that with med a horse would only improve one grade so if the horse you are talking about is really bad I doubt if it will ever recover. My horse is fine now but she wasn't very bad to begin with.

I was told a horse will test positive 99% of the time as a carrier but weather or not it gets bad enough to cause nerve damage is another thing.

[Hey4horses]

Protazil- New pelletted alfalfa based top dressing approved for use. Anyone on the forum have experience with it?

It is a prescription only product and is supposed to have a quicker absorption and blood level than Marquis which takes up to 11 days to get a therapeutic level.

My questions are, does the horse readily eat it? Did you find a reasonable price? It is priced about the same as Marquis, around 755.00 for a 28 day course.

Thanks!

[ASB Stars]

Protazil- New pelletted alfalfa based top dressing approved for use. Anyone on the forum have experience with it?

It is a prescription only product and is supposed to have a quicker absorption and blood level than Marquis which takes up to 11 days to get a therapeutic level.

My questions are, does the horse readily eat it? Did you find a reasonable price? It is priced about the same as Marquis, around 755.00 for a 28 day course.

Thanks!

Don't bother. Get the Diclazuril from a compounding pharmacy- and get it in as high a concentration as you can. It will not harm mammalian tissue. You need to get your horse up to steady state- which takes 7-10 days- and keep them their, IMHO- for a minimum of 45 days- 60 is better. It'll probably cost you about $300 a month.

There is, currently, no real understanding of the life cycle of the protozoans. I truly believe that they can encyst in the cord. So, you want enough concentration of a drug that is cidal to the little bastards, that you can fry them when they come creeping out, thinking that it is safe.

I HATE EPM!!!:flame:

[Hey4horses]

Diclazuril = (Protazil)

So Stars, do you have experience treating EPM with Diclaruril which is Protazil?

Stickman has had 3 months of TMZ/Pryimethamine (sp?), 1 month and half of Marquis and I think he improved a grade since all of this was given in the first half of 2010. I think during the heat of the summer, it has taken a toll on him again, (the protozoa).

He is still not falling thankfully but his toe drag seems worse on hot days and he has yet to gain much muscle mass in the pelvis. No somersaults since last June, is impressive to me.

He trots better than walks. Does anyone think it is worth trying to treat what I think he might be having a slight relapse or needing more treatment?

I have read several articles and some suggest dual treatment with TMZ/P and Marquis but I would like to try something new as I think bugs get around the same drugs.

[jslilley]

Protazil still has not been able to be released by Merck (they bought Intervet Schering-Plough). We have been waiting for it since late last year but FDA approval on everything isn't yet complete. Studies were very favorable for the horse to actually eat it and see results. How it compares to a round of Marquis $$ will depend on what they do with the price when it is finally released.

[ASB Stars]

Diclazuril = (Protazil)

So Stars, do you have experience treating EPM with Diclaruril which is Protazil?

Stickman has had 3 months of TMZ/Pryimethamine (sp?), 1 month and half of Marquis and I think he improved a grade since all of this was given in the first half of 2010. I think during the heat of the summer, it has taken a toll on him again, (the protozoa).

He is still not falling thankfully but his toe drag seems worse on hot days and he has yet to gain much muscle mass in the pelvis. No somersaults since last June, is impressive to me.

He trots better than walks. Does anyone think it is worth trying to treat what I think he might be having a slight relapse or needing more treatment?

I have read several articles and some suggest dual treatment with TMZ/P and Marquis but I would like to try something new as I think bugs get around the same drugs.

Yes, I have used diclazuril. I started with Tolrazuril- which Bayer sold as Baycox. Thie was the presursor to Ponzuril- which is what is sold as Marquis. Horses routinely relapsed off of Baycox, and so, I need to seek another route.

I imported Diclazuril- which was labeled as Clinicox- from Canada- back when you couldn't obtain that, or Baycox, in this country. You needed a script, and FDA dispensation to get it. It came in a 40# bag, labeled for chickens, and you needed to get 1# per day into a horse who weighed 1000#. However, that did give you 40 days- which, for the price, was better than Baycox, at the time.

Diclazuril's numbers are just better- the percentage of horses who respond is higher, the percentage who relapse lower, and the cost to really amp up the treatment is lower.

I wouldn't pay the money for Marquis. You can do better than two months of Diclazuril for what it costs to do one month of Marquis- the real deal here is keeping them on a drug long enough to kill bakc the bugs, such that the horses own immune system is repaired enough to fight. Immune stimulants are your friend, as is a 10,000IU vitaminE supplement.

[Hey4horses]

Protazil still has not been able to be released by Merck (they bought Intervet Schering-Plough). We have been waiting for it since late last year but FDA approval on everything isn't yet complete. Studies were very favorable for the horse to actually eat it and see results. How it compares to a round of Marquis $$ will depend on what they do with the price when it is finally released.

That is funny because The Horse had an article from Dr. Reed of Rood and Riddle that had Protazil from Schering-Plough released for approval. And yes I agree, Stars that the numbers were much better for improvement and relapse. http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18634

Sticky as you an see is a rather large horse and he has a zest for life and is still relatively young at about 13. I want to step up his program and treat for relapse.

Yesterday, I put on ankle bracelets on his hind legs and he was using them much better so maybe that would help a little in developing his hind end muscles again. He is just on turn out and hand walking. But no falls!

I will post the link to the article when I get it from another forum.

Thanks, any other help is appreciated as this is a dreadful disease like F/L which I can't even say for dread of it.

[Sit]

This is only anecdotal experience, but I think the degree of recovery is unpredictable. I am not familiar with the new drugs, but as some others have said, once you stop it, you can see where you are. I believe that the horse can improve by making some adjustments or "compensating" somehow, like animals and people do with respect to many problems.

You may always have a weak or broken back end and the horse may have trouble raising its neck up. You just need to continue whatever medical treatment is appropriate and then give the horse some time.

I also beleive that if the horse becomes stable enough to work, building up to vigorous exercise (not grueling or exhaustive, of course) once or even twice a day will help. I recommend hand galloping, if your horse is eventually able to do it.

Keep in mind that these are just my amateur, non-medical opinions. But, the main point is that EPM in a horse is not necessarily a hopeless situation. Time, time, time, followed by gradually building to vigorous conditioning.

[ASB Stars]

This is only anecdotal experience, but I think the degree of recovery is unpredictable. I am not familiar with the new drugs, but as some others have said, once you stop it, you can see where you are. I believe that the horse can improve by making some adjustments or "compensating" somehow, like animals and people do with respect to many problems.

You may always have a weak or broken back end and the horse may have trouble raising its neck up. You just need to continue whatever medical treatment is appropriate and then give the horse some time.

I also beleive that if the horse becomes stable enough to work, building up to vigorous exercise (not grueling or exhaustive, of course) once or even twice a day will help. I recommend hand galloping, if your horse is eventually able to do it.

Keep in mind that these are just my amateur, non-medical opinions. But, the main point is that EPM in a horse is not necessarily a hopeless situation. Time, time, time, followed by gradually building to vigorous conditioning.

Do not, for any reason, ride a horse with propriaceptive deficits. Ground work can do wonders- and it is reasonably safe.

I have rehabbed a couple of these guys, successfully. One of the things I did was use human ankle weights (the sand filled variety) on them, behind. I worked on building up their strength, and coordination, with caveletti poles, and lots of slow work.

You can bring them back, but be careful!!

[Hey4horses]

At my place Sticky could never be ridden without a soft indoor and totally level slightly firmer surface due to his loss of propioception and toe drag that is worse when he gets himself mixed up or tires. My aim for him is not to ride but to make him stronger for safety purposes. His job is companion horse and therapy horse for me!

Stars, when you do the cavalettis, is this on a lunge rope or lines or just hand walking?

[ASB Stars]

It depends on their condition. I started with my most debilitated one walking him in hand, over poles on the ground. I build them up to long lining.