New Breeding Trend?

[g8dchick]

I wanted to find out people's opinions on cross breeding similarly bred horses.

I have taken a huge interest in Saddlebred bloodlines and I am surprised to find out that quite a few breeders are breeding half-brothers and sisters to each other. Or crosses that have the same horse on both sides that are seperated by one or two generations.

I dont believe this is the majority of our breeding decisions however am curious if this is more widely accepted with our breed than others. I have been involved the breeding of racing and performance quarter horses and this type of breeding decisions are looked down on.

It has also been my experience that Saddlebreds generally have lower conception rates than other breeds. Do you think that the limited gene pool and the decision to breed similarly bred horses to each other could attribute to that?

I would love to hear from avid Saddlebred breeders on their opinions. I am not making accusations mostly observations with in interest in improving my own breeding decisions.

Thanks for your comments

Lindsay

[SmartAlex]

It certainly isn't new. 20+ years ago, I owned a horse whose sire and dam were half siblings. I've oft heard it said around here "If it works, it's line breeding, if it doesn't, it's inbreeding."

[attafox]

While I believe that we are trending towards a more limited gene pool, there have been articles written regarding that for the small numbers that we actually do register, we have a far larger gene pool than the population would normally dictate. That said, I do think there is a real need to preserve some of the "different" lines.

Having not observed any conception issues, can't comment as to that except that it may be related to the fact that the majority of conception in the ASB world is by insemination and that there may be issues with either shipping or in vet knowledge when performing that task. T'breds, for example, still demand live cover. That would seriously preclude many in the ASB industry from being able to breed.

[Mona129]

Or as is the case in the TB industry it actually allows more stallions to breed and protects genetic diversity to a degree. I mean think about how many people would want to breed their mare to a triple crown winner? A stallion being bred with AI can service an almost unlimited book due to reproductive technology. Instead, by forcing live cover, a stallion, no matter how popular, can only stand to a limited book. Which in turn means more stallions have the chance to breed. This also protects the value of the get, the fewer there are with sought after lines the higher the value.

[kross]

I'm concerned that in about 20yrs are bloodlines are going to reflect the current breeding trend/recommendations of the forum and everything will be down to 2 stallions.

[Mona129]

You mean kinda like twenty years ago when almost all the pintos had Winter Carnival blood?

OT: KRoss, I left you a message on the draft horse thread, wasnt sure if you had seen it.

[Seeing Spots]

I have lots of pinto's but I can't think of a one with Winter Carnival in their background. I do have several horses who have "different" bloodlines because I go for color. Plus I can not afford to breed to the "in" stallions so I don't think I will ever have to worry about losing my unusual lines because of it.

Personally I don't really like line breeding, so I don't do it. I think it's one of those preference things which could be found with anything.
Not sure about the conception rate either. My only problems have been with AI but since I do mostly live cover I do just fine.

[D_BaldStockings]

OP,
Where are you getting the low conception rate data/conclusion from?

There may be a large discrepancy between mares exposed and foals registered, but that doesn't actually reflect conception/live foals as many foals go unregistered for a variety of reasons.

Most ET foals are the result of a wish for multiple foals from older mares or to get a foal from a mare that is showing.

Saddlebreds have been known to (unfortunately) conceive as yearlings, and also to go on as regular producers into their 30's at times.


Generally, if a closebred horse is good, it is very good; and if it is bad, well, don't do that cross again. Being careful not to compound faults and always go for vigorous, healthy individuals (including fertility) in closebreeding is certainly wise.

[attafox]

Or as is the case in the TB industry it actually allows more stallions to breed and protects genetic diversity to a degree. I mean think about how many people would want to breed their mare to a triple crown winner? A stallion being bred with AI can service an almost unlimited book due to reproductive technology. Instead, by forcing live cover, a stallion, no matter how popular, can only stand to a limited book. Which in turn means more stallions have the chance to breed. This also protects the value of the get, the fewer there are with sought after lines the higher the value.

And that reminds me of the saying that good stallions make great geldings!

AI allows those of us with limited budgets a wider range of stallions - and not limited by geographic distance. It also allows those of us with show mares (and show studs) to not have to risk the health of mare or stud with a more clinical approach.

And while it technically allows an "unlimited" stud book, in actuality, that doesn't happen in the ASB world. Having looked at some of the statistics, the largest number of registered get that I have seen from any popular stud recently is 64 in one year. That is less than a full stud book for a TB stallion doing live cover.

[Mona129]

Preaching to the choir here definitely attafox! AI has opened up a world of oppurtunities that werent available before. Frozen semen from Europe even. Its fantastic.

[GottaDrive]

I mostly breed out crosses. However, I have line bred one of my mares.

I will avoid line breeding when a cross gets too close.

Also, most reproduction veterinarians will tell you that very close line breeding across successive generations will make mares less fertile and harder to conceive off spring.

Walt

[virtualasb]

One of the oldest breeding quotes is "Give the foal back the best blood of his dam." Line breeding will set type.

[sunridge]

oops "Give the sire back the best blood of his dam."

[D_BaldStockings]

Mnay people think they are not closebreeding because the names on the pedigrees are different, yet there are many horses that are full brothers or sisters, and when these horses appear in pedigrees the close relationship might be overlooked, especially as the generations move into the past.

For instance, the great majority of horses now trace in direct male line to Bourbon King through his many sons. he also had several sons who were great broodmare sires -like King's Genius, and most horses trace several lines to him through mares in their extended pedigrees.

The 'Anacacho brothers' Shamrock and Denmark, by the same sire, each sired multiple breeding offspring from blue hen mares Flirtation Walk and Reveries Desdemona -both of those King's Genius mares.

More recently the Stonewall King sons, especially Stonewall Supreme, show up repeatedly in the dam lines.

Right from the beginning of the breed record about 1860?, Washington Denmark's dam was a Cockspur mare, and his sire (Gaines Denmark) was out of a Cockspur mare. 75% of the Denmark lines go through Washington Denmark. Three of his 4 major sons are out of 'Daughter of Bald Stockings'.

And it just goes on: this was the usual way of breeding horses for most people: Find the best, expand the family, inbreed it, find another family, cross it, inbreed, expand...
We could go on for pages and pages

So one may not think the breeding is close by reading the names, but extended pedigrees will catch you out every time.


-not that this is horses, but agronomists have taken hybrid corn and bred it to itself (ONE parent) and bred the succeeding generation offspring for seven generations to test the regression factor hypothesis and there was little difference until the 5th generation.

It would be virtually impossible to breed this close with horses, but remember it is also impossible to 'smoke out' the undesirable recessive unmapped genes in horses and inbreeeding will increase the likelihood of their expression.

[GottaDrive]

Baldstockings raised an important point. Horse and human genetics being what they are have a tendency to combine weaknesses rather than strengths. Needless to say, this is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. Also, don't overlook recessive genes. Even though you may not see a particular characteristic doesn't mean you will not get it in an off spring. So ... if you line breed both the stallion and mare must be good representatives of the breed. In other words, few or no weaknesses.

[virtualasb]

Mary's right. OOPS

[D_BaldStockings]

The most important cross in breeding is to keep your fingers crossed that the foal is healthy and fantastic.

Works about as well as some of the other systems -ha!

[StilettosAndBoots]

I personally am all for line breeding. I like to pick the best traits out of my stallions, and find a mare with the same sire or dam line that also exhibits those great characteristics. I've only been breeding for 3 years, but it's been great. I've got a Phi Slama Jama daughter and I'm looking at Phlags Phlyng or however you spell his name to breed for in 2010. The necks she has thrown has been incredible, and she really produces a great set of hocks. IMO, if you're not comfortable with line breeding, then don't try it. If you are familiar with the characteristics of each bloodline, and the characteristics of your stallion and or/ mare, then game on! I think a focus on line breeding, crossed on an out cross, and back to the another sire/dam of the specified bloodline is a safe way to go, given you are paying special attention to the quality and characteristics that you will be passing on.

[ASB Stars]

I personally am all for line breeding. I like to pick the best traits out of my stallions, and find a mare with the same sire or dam line that also exhibits those great characteristics. I've only been breeding for 3 years, but it's been great. I've got a Phi Slama Jama daughter and I'm looking at Phlags Phlyng or however you spell his name to breed for in 2010. The necks she has thrown has been incredible, and she really produces a great set of hocks. IMO, if you're not comfortable with line breeding, then don't try it. If you are familiar with the characteristics of each bloodline, and the characteristics of your stallion and or/ mare, then game on! I think a focus on line breeding, crossed on an out cross, and back to the another sire/dam of the specified bloodline is a safe way to go, given you are paying special attention to the quality and characteristics that you will be passing on.

Have you noticed how many crosses Phi has to Denmark's Bourbon Genius? I am a fan of line breeding, but you are getting a bit close, even for me...

[StilettosAndBoots]

Yes, and actually I'm really looking at a very nice stallion owned by Tina English. I've already forgotten his name, but if I have this corredt, he is by Lord O'Shea out of a line bred Stonewall King mare. I think his name is Lord O'Blue Mountain. Anyway, he's necky, and he's very game and he's got incredible hocks (always looking for hocks!), and she has a few colts of his on the ground that are incredibly talented. But I don't think she's done anything with them. But that's where my though path is taking me. She's getting quite old, and I won't be able to purchase another mare like her for quite sometime, so I'm trying to linebreed to preserve the bloodline for my own future "magic cross".

I'm hoping for a filly, or just a healthy foal. If I do get my filly, I plan on breeding to Designed Time Out For Lovin, or Ultimatum, or with Jan and Don being so close, possibly Unlisted. But this is given I get what I want and it's healthy.

[ihfarm]

I wanted to find out people's opinions on cross breeding similarly bred horses.

I have taken a huge interest in Saddlebred bloodlines and I am surprised to find out that quite a few breeders are breeding half-brothers and sisters to each other. Or crosses that have the same horse on both sides that are seperated by one or two generations.

I dont believe this is the majority of our breeding decisions however am curious if this is more widely accepted with our breed than others. I have been involved the breeding of racing and performance quarter horses and this type of breeding decisions are looked down on.

It has also been my experience that Saddlebreds generally have lower conception rates than other breeds. Do you think that the limited gene pool and the decision to breed similarly bred horses to each other could attribute to that?

I would love to hear from avid Saddlebred breeders on their opinions. I am not making accusations mostly observations with in interest in improving my own breeding decisions.

Thanks for your comments

Lindsay


Hi! In general Saddlebreds are not known for low conception rate. Actually from what I have heard and experienced they are known for breeding into their 30's.

The only thing known for a low conception rate --- donkeys have 30% conception rate when breeding donkey to donkey. I believe it just slightly higher for breeding mules.

Low conception rate in horses can be caused by lots of things including: medication, supplements (an ingredient), horse's general health, diet, etc....

I, personally, have not tried to breed real close. However, I do own some mares that were line bred.

Have a great day!

[3kidsandahorse]

Hi! In general Saddlebreds are not known for low conception rate. Actually from what I have heard and experienced they are known for breeding into their 30's.

The only thing known for a low conception rate --- donkeys have 30% conception rate when breeding donkey to donkey. I believe it just slightly higher for breeding mules.

Low conception rate in horses can be caused by lots of things including: medication, supplements (an ingredient), horse's general health, diet, etc....

I, personally, have not tried to breed real close. However, I do own some mares that were line bred.

Have a great day!

I always thought mules were sterile.

[ASB Stars]

I always thought mules were sterile.

Yep. They are.

[Silly Filly]

I always thought mules were sterile.

I read it to mean to get a mule, not breed mules.

[D_BaldStockings]

I always thought mules were sterile.

They are. Except when they aren't.
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=132531

Documented cases of female hybrids producing foals are very rare, but occur.

Just to set the record straight. :euro:

[3kidsandahorse]

They are. Except when they aren't.
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=132531



That clears it right up! :tooth:

[Tazsprout]

For a variety of reasons, I've been reading bunches of stuff on human and animal genetics at the moment. There were a couple of interesting comments.

On the human side, someone investigated cultures that were inclined to marry first cousins. The children of this mating were no more likely to have problems than true "outcrosses." However, the subsequent generations were, even when the subsequent generations were NOT cousin crosses. If they WERE cousin crosses, you really get in trouble.

On the animal side, it was noted that "line breeding (or as someone said "in-breeding, when it produces a problem) was started when there WAS no genetic consistency. They just had horses of various lines. So back in the 19th century the only way to establish type was to do a fair amount of this type of cross.

However, now, we all ready have (perhaps) too much genetic consistency. So following this strategy is no longer a desirable technique. But as in many things with horses (and dogs, I guess) our tradition is to follow that 19th centurey way of thinking. The one thing line breeding IS good for is to develope a "single trait" characteristics in preference to a "whole animal" fitness characteristic.

The breeding for singe trait characteristics are discussed at length in Temple Grandin's books (in good layman's terms) and in lots of very densely written genetic text book (for the masochists among us). The punch line is that you select animals for ONE thing (narrow heads on collies, color in dalmations, small size in King Charles Spaniels in dogs..) you will inevitably breed in a neurologic/behavioural deficit of some type. This has to do with the way the embryo develops its nervous system and the way that particular genes for other traits are allied to the genes making brain/spinal cord.

The problem is, of course, that our judges tend to reward the animals with the most extreme version of the "single trait" phenotype. A lot of pure bred dogs have been turned into structural freaks was a result of this, and certainly the number of neurologic problems is extremely high. It is this linkage between single trait breeding and neurologic problems that is creating havoc in so many AKC dog breed, and responsible for things like springer rage, aggression in labs, neurologic westies/king charles/etc.

I think this is also the case in horse breeding. If you breed for something rather limited (speed, head set, dished face, high action. giagantic size in WBs, color in Rocky Mountain horses) in isolation from OTHER traits (overall good body type, ridability) you set up the system to accumulate undesirable traits.

Personaly, I think line breeding a breed with as small a genetic pool as modern saddlebreds in madness, in terms of the long term health of the breed. Of course, in terms of getting individuals of extreme type who win ribbons (without too much concern for the potential for genetic problems down the line), it is JUST the way to go. I think the problem is probably not as god-awful in horses as it has become in purebred dogs, but it certainly has the potential to become so. I am certain everyone can think of line-bred horses that were just fine. They think if their foal LOOKS fine, that it is fine (genetically speaking). But with the recessive traits, its the accumulation of problems that happen "down-stream" that will get.

We all ready have examples of this in the Arab, Rockies, WBs, and SBs and I guess we will have more.

Don't feel that I am targeting the SB in particular, I told a bunch of TB breeders that the breed would be best served by cross breeding to something sturdy with good feet and putting up with slower speeds for a generation..:) And there aren't that many line-bred TBs!

Most breed associations handle this by being in denial about the current genetic problems and vert reaL potential for more of them in the future.

[D_BaldStockings]

For a variety of reasons, I've been reading bunches of stuff on human and animal genetics at the moment. There were a couple of interesting comments.

On the human side, someone investigated cultures that were inclined to marry first cousins. The children of this mating were no more likely to have problems than true "outcrosses." However, the subsequent generations were, even when the subsequent generations were NOT cousin crosses. If they WERE cousin crosses, you really get in trouble.

On the animal side, it was noted that "line breeding (or as someone said "in-breeding, when it produces a problem) was started when there WAS no genetic consistency. They just had horses of various lines. So back in the 19th century the only way to establish type was to do a fair amount of this type of cross.

However, now, we all ready have (perhaps) too much genetic consistency. So following this strategy is no longer a desirable technique. But as in many things with horses (and dogs, I guess) our tradition is to follow that 19th centurey way of thinking. The one thing line breeding IS good for is to develope a "single trait" characteristics in preference to a "whole animal" fitness characteristic.

The breeding for singe trait characteristics are discussed at length in Temple Grandin's books (in good layman's terms) and in lots of very densely written genetic text book (for the masochists among us). The punch line is that you select animals for ONE thing (narrow heads on collies, color in dalmations, small size in King Charles Spaniels in dogs..) you will inevitably breed in a neurologic/behavioural deficit of some type. This has to do with the way the embryo develops its nervous system and the way that particular genes for other traits are allied to the genes making brain/spinal cord.

The problem is, of course, that our judges tend to reward the animals with the most extreme version of the "single trait" phenotype. A lot of pure bred dogs have been turned into structural freaks was a result of this, and certainly the number of neurologic problems is extremely high. It is this linkage between single trait breeding and neurologic problems that is creating havoc in so many AKC dog breed, and responsible for things like springer rage, aggression in labs, neurologic westies/king charles/etc.

I think this is also the case in horse breeding. If you breed for something rather limited (speed, head set, dished face, high action. giagantic size in WBs, color in Rocky Mountain horses) in isolation from OTHER traits (overall good body type, ridability) you set up the system to accumulate undesirable traits.

Personaly, I think line breeding a breed with as small a genetic pool as modern saddlebreds in madness, in terms of the long term health of the breed. Of course, in terms of getting individuals of extreme type who win ribbons (without too much concern for the potential for genetic problems down the line), it is JUST the way to go. I think the problem is probably not as god-awful in horses as it has become in purebred dogs, but it certainly has the potential to become so. I am certain everyone can think of line-bred horses that were just fine. They think if their foal LOOKS fine, that it is fine (genetically speaking). But with the recessive traits, its the accumulation of problems that happen "down-stream" that will get.

We all ready have examples of this in the Arab, Rockies, WBs, and SBs and I guess we will have more.

Don't feel that I am targeting the SB in particular, I told a bunch of TB breeders that the breed would be best served by cross breeding to something sturdy with good feet and putting up with slower speeds for a generation..:) And there aren't that many line-bred TBs!

Most breed associations handle this by being in denial about the current genetic problems and vert reaL potential for more of them in the future.

While I agree with you about single trait breeding up to a point, I would argue that overall good physical and mental selection combined with testing (genetic and behavioral) for several HUNDRED years can result in amazing animals example: the Border Collie. When bred as a rustic herding dog and selected for the overall performance dog- as a dog, not a beauty specimen, the very tight gene pool has not been detrimental, in fact is the only gene pool to achieve this pinnacle.

When pet breeders select from this stock for 'pretty puppies', coddle the weak with special diets, make excuses for the mentally misfit, attribute to 'poor rearing' the savagery or bad mothering of adults and breed these as untried young animals because they are fertile or can be made so with vet intervention: the proof is in the results.

Crossing neurotic Westies with raging Springers isn't a solution I am in favor of. Nor the bloodlines that produced those flaws.

Breeding for the whole animal every time, to the best of your information is. The problem is trying to discover hidden faults perpetuated by man that natural selection would have eliminated from the breeding pool.

Outcrossing between breeds as a magic bullet is the fad of the moment. Hybrid does not always mean vigor, sometimes it can lead to multiple degeneracies.

[ihfarm]

I read it to mean to get a mule, not breed mules.

I did mean to breed for a mule. Not breed mules.

----I do not have internet access at home.

Happy New Year!
Rebecca

[GottaDrive]

The problem with understanding real life genetics versus textbook descriptions is that it requires much data. And, for Saddlebreds there is seldom enough data points to arrive at any conclusions. Many data points and field work/analysis is required to determine what genetic traits are or are not passed on by stallions or mares and whether line breeding or outcrosses work best. If we were breeding beef cattle the data is available but not for ASBs. So we are in the position of working with generalities or attempting to reach conclusions from a small number of data points.

[CMRChamberlin]

What we really need is a selection of horses created each year as "end products," that is horses meant for performance and performance alone (i.e. Great Geldings) and "producers," outcross horses that will make future "end products." Line breeding surely works, but often you find that these horses only make performance horses and their success in the breeding shed is limited.

[sdlbredfan]

That is a good point, what Stars said 'Have you noticed how many crosses Phi has to Denmark's Bourbon Genius? I am a fan of line breeding, but you are getting a bit close, even for me...'. I recall attending a lecture Doc Raun did for our local charter club several years ago, and the subject of DBG came up. I am paraphrasing but hope I am remembering correctly that Doc mentioned that if you want to produce breeding stock, intensify or repeat bloodlines, such as DBG. He mentioned Phi Slama Jama as being such a horse, with triple of DBG. He also said if you are primarily breeding for performance, outcrossing is good. That is why he used Talk of the Town so much crossed on his Phi mares.
Jeanie

[SmartAlex]

And Phi Slama Jama was a happy accident. His dam, Wild and Lovely was already double DBG being by a stallion and out of a mare who were both sired by DBG. Phi was originally registered as being by Pride of Ridgefield, but when the blood testing was implemented, they found that was not the case, and his papers were changed. Phi's dam had been accidentally exposed to a young CH The Karankawa Chief (in the pasture I believe). The Karankawa Chief was by the Pride of Ridgefield and out of a DBG mare so he got an extra dose of DBG. Since Phi Slama Jama turned out to be such an outstanding individual, it was perhaps a shame that the truth was not discovered earlier, but as a gelding, The Karankawa Chief went on to a productive show career earning his CH and proving that good stallions make great geldings.

[ASB Stars]

I thought the alleged sire was Admiral's Windjammer-- but hey- what do I know??LOL

In any event, Phi brought over 100K at the Newmarket sale, as a yearling, and, the rest is history!

[SmartAlex]

I thought the alleged sire was Admiral's Windjammer-- but hey- what do I know??LOL

In any event, Phi brought over 100K at the Newmarket sale, as a yearling, and, the rest is history!

I think you're probably right, it's been a long time... late 80s? I've forgotten a lot of details from that decade :turned:

ETA: Admiral's Windjammer would have been a yearling when he was supposedly bred to Wild and Lovely... which would make sense since it was a young stock turn out situation. I guess someone who knows will have to straighten us out. Ill never find the official announcement. Took me an hour last night to verify where I found my Yorktown fact. I speed read Hold Your Horses three times before I gave up and headed for my stash of copied articles.

[sdlbredfan]

That is correct, what SmartAlex said 'Phi's dam had been accidentally exposed to a young CH The Karankawa Chief (in the pasture I believe). The Karankawa Chief was by the Pride of Ridgefield and out of a DBG mare so he got an extra dose of DBG'. I am wondering if Phi's happy purchaser knew that ahead of time, or found out later, LOL.
Jeanie

[Dobilover]

.......Crossing neurotic Westies with raging Springers isn't a solution I am in favor of. Nor the bloodlines that produced those flaws.

Breeding for the whole animal every time, to the best of your information is. The problem is trying to discover hidden faults perpetuated by man that natural selection would have eliminated from the breeding pool.

Outcrossing between breeds as a magic bullet is the fad of the moment. Hybrid does not always mean vigor, sometimes it can lead to multiple degeneracies.

D_Baldstockings, thank you so much for your post. I'm a bit late to this thread but I had to throw my two cents in, especially as an experienced purebred dog handler. First off, I hate the word "hybrid" as it relates to these trendy over priced mutts. A lion/tiger mating produces hybrids, a horse/donkey cross produces hybrids, a golden retriever/poodle crossing produces mixed breed puppies that are 100% domestic dogs. Selling them for $2,500 doesn't make them more special than the mutt at the local animal shelter. And I'm all for mutts, just not for calling them something that they're not and creating them on purpose for profit. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

I completely agree with you on breeding for the whole animal. There is nothing sadder than watching brachycephalic (smushed faced) breeds struggle to breathe and have their eyes literally pop out of the sockets because we think it's cute (I've actually seen a pug die because he over-heated and couldn't pant enough to cool down. :censored:) Or German shepherds who's hips are so slanted they can no longer walk. Or French bulldogs who can't even have sex on their own to reproduce, nor can they whelp naturally or even swim! Or 1200lb quarter horses standing on hooves meant for a small arab. Please don't get me wrong, I love purebred animals, I just hate the trendy extremism breeding practices of humans that ultimately results in the animal suffering.

Ok, stepping down off my soap box now.

[Fairfax]

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