Shame in the Horse Show Ring blog post

[mand_asbfan]

http://shameinthehorseshowring.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html

I must admit I know very little about TWH and I've never even seen a big lick Walker until I watched the videos posted on this site. I was hoping someone here could give me more information that is a "somewhere in the middle" response - obviously most folks following that blog are anti-weighted shoes, action devices, curb bits, etc. How heavy are these horses shod? Is it mostly pads that make up the length? I guess I thought a running walk would be faster... Quite a few of the videos say "coming 2 yo" - I look at my 5 year old and I coudn't imagine riding something in show shoes and a curb before its even 2... is that common?

[Kalin]

Oh my, the folks on that blog are just charming, eh? I think I'd take their concerns a lot more seriously if everything wasn't coated in profanity and name calling...

The package each horse carries really varies from horse to horse. Some go very light, some go very small, some need taller or heavier, etc. I have seen horses in everything from a very small package (a couple wedge pads, basically) and itty bitty chain to a heavy package with a plantation shoe on the bottom (still with an itty bitty chain).

Most horses are started at 18 months. That's something I don't like at all and I do know many people who hold back their horses to start later. I know there is research that starting early can actually be beneficial (the premise of loading the musculoskeletal system and creating denser bone and stronger joints through that) but ehhhh, I would rather hold them back until they are a true 24 months or older before even backing, for mental as much as physical well-being.
I also wish Walking Horse trainers spent more time with the horses in snaffles, teaching them to really use themselves and building up strength using just basic dressage principles. That's my goal sometime -- start some padded youngsters my own way, with more emphasis on the beginning stages of their riding carreers and and see how it works out.

[mand_asbfan]

I was just curious as to the weight because I'm wondering if they are as heavy as they look or if it is mostly pads... My horse was shod with 16 oz shoes and a light pad and one of the heavier shod horses in my barn had about 24 oz.

[walkinghorseowner]

A great many padded horses do not carry any shoe.... the package is built of plastic pads and on the bottom instead of a shoe is a piece of rubber tire. There is a 2 lb limit on the lite shod pleasure horse. No limit on the park shoe. Country pleasure wears a stamped keg shoe.

[RedsLady]

I used to see quite a few 'big lick" walking horses when I was a kid. I never thougth they looked bad in person but I don't know what level of competition we had in MN when I was a kid. In those videos, they look like they are laboring to do those gaits but I have no idea what the training regime is for that style of horse. I have a feeling that they do feel very attacked as a breed.

[Cynthia]

All I can say is that I am, personally, not a big fan of the big lick horses (BUT, I do like plantation horses and walkers in general). I just don't think (totally my personal opinion here) that the large shoe packages make for a pretty picture - it just looks way too unnatural for me. That being said, I also don't like to see saddlebreds with heavy/large shoe packages on either, or super-long feet.

I would love to see if a horse could do something close to a big lick - sans heavy shoes and soring (not saying they all are...but my opinion is that some are). I would guess that those individuals are out there, but they're probably overshadowed by the ones that have the big shoes (OR, they're the REALLY freaky ones that have big shoes on anyway).

As far as how heavy the shoes actually are, I can't give you a good answer. I'm sure they vary just like saddlebred shoes do - depending on what the horse needs. I was in a barn for a little while that was partially rented out by a TN walker trainer (who I don't think was one of the glowing examples of the training industry) and I saw the shoes and picked up some that were just laying around. The ones I examined were quite solid - but not as heavy as I would have guessed. BUT, they were BIG. That was what bothered me more than the weight. The horses that this trainer had (and I repeat - I do NOT think he was a particularly upstanding member of the TN walker community) were constantly standing on a significant incline because their shoes raised their front ends up several inches higher than their hindquarters. For those of you out there more familiar with TN walker big lick horses...is that normal, and how does it affect the horse?

[Wind_Chill]

I would love to see if a horse could do something close to a big lick - sans heavy shoes and soring (not saying they all are...but my opinion is that some are). I would guess that those individuals are out there, but they're probably overshadowed by the ones that have the big shoes (OR, they're the REALLY freaky ones that have big shoes on anyway).


I grew up at a barn that was half Saddlebreds, half walking/racking horses. The trainer was a pretty big name in the racking horse world with numerous WC horses. I can't speak for the 'big lick' shoes personally, as she refused to have that in her barn. I was young, but I'm pretty sure she just felt it was unnatural and unnecessary. I do clearly recall one walking horse she started that was essentially a big lick horse... with just a saddlebred type shoe job. He was super cool to watch- he would squat down behind and wave his legs, wearing not even a chain on his feet. He was NEVER sored in any way, and I don't believe she ever even used a chain on him. And you were right, as freaky and cool as he was, he would never beat the big lick horses. She had another amazing padded racking horse that never won the titles he deserved because she would not sore him to get that last little bit of squatting down and waving his front legs.
That same trainer now trains Saddlebreds primarily, with just some speed racking horses left and some colts she will start. I'm glad she has ASBs of course, but I also wish the walking/racking breeds had more people left in it like her.

[scrtwh]

I'm glad she has ASBs of course, but I also wish the walking/racking breeds had more people left in it like her.

The TWH world has changed quite a bit over the past decade. MOST of the trainers out there DO NOT sore, and with the advent of the NWHA and the versatility program, less than 5% of ANY TWH's are big lick and in that number a VERY SMALL % that sore, So ... it would seem that not only are there MANY more TWH trainers out there LIKE her, they are growing in number and disciplines, not just the Saddleseat world. I understand that it is hard to seperate that VERY small percentage of TWH breeders that are unethical and will do anything for a ribbon, but, you get that in ANY breed. And really, if you ride saddleseat and you ginger your horse, you are soring his/her anal passage to get that extra oomph to his/her tail, so ... just something to think about.

[vlayne]

Um, ginger isn't even in the same ballpark as soring a horse. Don't even try to draw the correlation there. We can't be distracted THAT easily. Ohlookasquirrel...!

[scrtwh]

Iwould never correlate sticking something acidic into a horse rectum with the horrors that some of the TWH trainers have done to their horses, but gingering is still a form of soring, just to a different degree. I don't want to distract just tired of the BS that seems to surround this breed and the folks that love them.

[mand_asbfan]

I really didn't intend to start this thread as a place to bash breeds/training methods, I just want to understand more about TWH in attempt to form my own opinion. I can't seem to find anyone who will tell me about the horses and training methods without adding an opinion or defense. One of the things that bothers me the most about what other people say about Saddlebreds is their opinions are almost always based on lies, like we "break their tails". If people ask me about my horse, I'll lay it all out. Yes, we cut their tails - here is how we do and here is why. If they don't agree with the practice, that is their opinion. Everyone has their own opinion of what is ok and what is crossing the line - the PETA people think we shouldn't stall or even ride our horses and the rest of the horse world ranges from the "you shouldn't clip horses - you're taking away their natural defenses" to people who physically alter their horses for beauty (set tails, sweating necks, nerving tails/ears, lipsuction on necks, etc).

I do think that the TWH breed is getting a really bad rep for a few bad apples. I think a lot of "non-gaited" horse people may look at those videos and think those horses are lame and sore because they are not used to seeing the head bob associated with the running walk. I think they look at the shoes and think that there is a huge stack of metal and plastic stuck on those horses feet. Soring, well I think most people don't agree with that but this goes back to the "bad apples". I think a whole lot of uneducated people are basing their opinions of TWH on their perceptions without any actual facts about these horses. And that puts us ASB and TWH people in the same boat - we need to educate these people about our wonderful horses!!!!

[walkinghorseowner]

The people on that blog, do not want to be educated...hey they "know it all" already. In the TWH issue you have the problem with 1. yes there are some cheaters who are being punished just like every other breed deals with em.. 2. the fanatics (pasture ornanment types etc) have literally found a home...they know nothing about any type of high stepping show horse, and apply their views as facts to help "educate" others. Because of our unique gait we are different (even the pleasure horses) and different, by ignorant people, is looked on as "bad".
Unfortunatley we have allowed the big lick to become synonymous with sore (which is not true), we have become an easy mark for animal right fundraising, pretty much like the pitbulls (the vast majority of which will never see the inside of a dog fighting ring)... no breed has the funding, or the "machinery" to out PR groups like PETA and HSUS.

[attafox]

Just on Friday, I was out at our barn. We have some flat shod Walking Horses that are also in another barn on the property (some pacey, but that's a different issue). One of the people in our barn was watching along with me and first asked what kind of horses they were, and I told her that they were Walking Horses. She then (being of a non-gaited background) said that "they look lame." I explained to her that they were supposed to head bob, so yes, I'd have to agree that just as with Saddlebreds, education is important.

[mlinky]

I thought I'd peruse the blog. Lot's of venomous venting, and loads of misinformation, but I did really get a giggle out of her description of Pat Parelli:

http://shameinthehorseshowring.blogspot.com/2009_08_23_archive.html

[Supreme69]

(sigh) I just don't understand why they feel the need to use such language. That just makes them look more uneducated. Anyway, I have seen the big lick walking horses show many times and (I hope I don't get bashed here) but I enjoy watching them. There is something about them that I like and I also like the flat shod ones as well. I don't like what I hear about the behind the scenes part of it, but I am sure not every walking horse trainer practices them.

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

[Chardonnay]

It's like a car accident. Its Terrible but for some reason we keep watching. There is nothing we can do but try to be supportive to the TWH people. Not all trainers use the soring methods. The best thing we can do is not look at it. Everytime we look at it they feel like more of a accomplishment and were are on their side. They are disgusting people, but they do have a point about the trainers. Why do they call themselves "The Horse Whisper" they were not the first ones to befriend a horse then start start them. Im NOT saying their bad trainers. They are good trainers. All they seem to discuss is what I call common horse sense. Im not looking at this anymore cause I am a person who cant help but look at the mess!

[Samigator]

Oh my, the folks on that blog are just charming, eh? I think I'd take their concerns a lot more seriously if everything wasn't coated in profanity and name calling...

my thoughts exactly. If they can't communicate their points intelligently without foul language, then who are they to be respected or trusted for their opinion regarding this manner? It's the same as people who blindly accuse ASBs of all the "torturous" things we do to them without taking the time or effort to understand the whole story. Just ignorant.

while there are some problems in the breed, I also believe that the majority of the people in the breed are not soring, and I almost feel guilty owning 2 TWH's because of the reputation the breed has. Sad, but sometimes it hurts to affiliate yourself with a breed when a few individuals have created such a global perception.

[D_BaldStockings]

...I almost feel guilty owning 2 TWH's because of the reputation the breed has. Sad, but sometimes it hurts to affiliate yourself with a breed when a few individuals have created such a global perception.

That is terribly sad for such a wonderful breed of horse to have blanket guilt by association with a few bad apples, to the extent that owners are weighing the emotional cost of championing their chosen breed.

I notice on the Chronicle forum the owner of theTWH who will be at WEG has courageously started a thread in the Dressage forum, despite the previously inevitable "your horse just moves WRONG" attitudes of some DQs. Perhaps some of us may pop over and encourage.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232172

Hopefully WEG will help educate a world audience about the TWH as a versatile gaited horse, and that gaited isn't a dirty word but a very special and wonderful attainment.


-and whoever posted about wired ears, nerved tails and liposculpting: I'm sorry, but all of those are illegal in USEF venues at present? Past (and possibly present) observation notwithstanding. Tail sets and shoe packages are USEF legal in the breeds they are presented on. Lumping all together might perhaps be misleading to some, or be a bit inflammatory. Unless that is the intent.

[SADLUP]

That blog is just a poison. As is everything there are prejudices. They are Breed-ists!! It is just better to ignore them.

[scrtwh]

I almost feel guilty owning 2 TWH's because of the reputation the breed has. Sad, but sometimes it hurts to affiliate yourself with a breed when a few individuals have created such a global perception.
__________________
I find this incredibly sad. I am so very proud to be partners with two of the most fabulous horses alive and they are TWH's. We are a testiment to what is good about this breed. My mare and I show lower level dressage in local shows and I cannot tell you the wonderful comments that I get from the "dressage" folks on her. The trainer where we trailer for lessons has added TWO more Walking horses to her training roster, we were her first "gaited" project, she is politicing to get dressage classes for "non-traditional" breeds part of the michigan dressage associations tests.

Not to mention the trail riding, camping, occasional trail pleasure class ... my guys do it all with a smile on thier horsey faces.

You should be PROUD to own these horses and be a part of the education and advancement of this incredibly versatile, intelligent breed.

You know, my old ASB trainer once said that there were no good TWH trainers. The hateful, ignorance of this statement just left me speechless. When I asked what trainers and how did she think they trained .... no answer ... what was probably the most pathetic and disturbing part of this is she made these comments in front of lesson parents and children who probably believed her, thereby passing on her ignorance. Very Sad. I left shortly after and well ... what a nightmare she was.

[Gus0429]

(sigh) I just don't understand why they feel the need to use such language. That just makes them look more uneducated. Anyway, I have seen the big lick walking horses show many times and (I hope I don't get bashed here) but I enjoy watching them. There is something about them that I like and I also like the flat shod ones as well. I don't like what I hear about the behind the scenes part of it, but I am sure not every walking horse trainer practices them.

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

We used to have big lick classes on our circuit, now they are few and far between. I love watching them. Haven't read the blog, but I may venture over to read if I get a chance later.

Just like any breed they all have their dirty little secrets. Too assume that all TWH trainers are all bad is just wrong.

[Maudine]

The best way to learn about the padded or performance TWH is to call a barn in your area and go watch and learn from a reputable trainer. We would never mind someone coming to our barn and watch us work horses much less the one's that are just being started. At the Celebration this year, they had a clinic on shoeing from a colt package (1 pad and wedge) all the way up to the finished package. The Package or (pads) differ from horse to horse just as they would on a saddlebred. Some have 3-4 pads, possible a wedge, some go with just full rubber, some with a shoe or 1/2 shoe, etc. Totally depends on the horse.

The main thing to the TWH breed is educating the general public. Unfortunately, the pads do look funny and we are working on ideas to make them more presentable to the public. There are still some trainers/owners out there that will try to buck the system, however the past year the breed has taken major steps in making sure they are caught and processed accordingly. Unfortunately, we only hear the negative most of the time and not the positive.

[Chardonnay]

I went to a walking horse farm today to see about boarding Char there. They have one stud on the farm and he was a former big lick horse. We brought him in to groom him up, he was full of burrs. He has scarring on his pasterns and most of the area is bald. It was so sad. He is happy now and turned out in his blanket and with a view of the girls. I know that this is not as common as these crazy people think, but this kind of thing is what newbie see and will shy away everytime. I am afraid that no matter what you do, no matter what breed, people will see this kind of thing and NEVER forget. Stereotypes exist because people see something they dont like then blame a group. This woman LOVES her horse, she nearly cried when I asked about his scars. She does promote him some and never uses( that Ive seen) the pic of the big package and enormous motion. She keeps that in a drawer and uses it to explain the scars. She didnt own him in his show days and was in no way apart of the abuse he endured. I know that not all big licks are sored but this is what people see. She told me that she would like to take him to the big horse expo at MSU next month, but she doesnt want people to see ANOTHER scared horse. Its sad for Boss because he is a good ambassador for the breed, Big, Black, Gentle. The personality that would cement a newbies prefrence for the breed. I wish the best for the breed, if they trotted I might have one now! :thumbup1:

[SteppinEasy]

I wish the best for the breed, if they trotted I might have one now! :thumbup1:

Chardonnay, there are lots of TWHs who trot and trot well. It's not what the breed wants to promote (just as ASBs don't usually promote the naturally gaited Saddlebred), but it's certainly not hard to find. I know of several TWHs who trot naturally or have been taught to trot and compete successfully in different disciplines: dressage (one woman I know of took her TWH to Prix St. George-level), hunt, driving, etc.

I also know someone who showed her TWH in ASB classes on the county fair circuit here in KY for years--an older woman whose name I can't remember; she was showing in the mid-to-late 1990s. Her horse looked like an ASB, moved like an ASB, and apparently won his fair share of classes against ASBs, but his papers had nothing but TWH on them.:D I remember someone asking her how she'd managed it--she replied, "What's to manage? He's never read his papers!":yes:

The TWH really is one of the most versatile breeds in existence. They are usually gentle, kind, and willing to try just about anything. If trotting's your thing, there's a TWH who will happily do it for you!

[Chardonnay]

DUH!!! I should have known that they do actually have a trot. I guess I never thought too much about it. That farm is right down the road from me and YES, Im going to take Char there. My first job was caring for 4 walkers and had a friend who is/was a celebration player everyear. I have noticed how friendly they are and WILLING! I have much faith in the breed and the lovers of it. Saddlebred, any breed for that matter, should be standing up for the TWH"s. I know the ASB folks are. I never saw any soring or scarring before and I just wanted people to see what I saw yesterday. A good caring owner and a breeder that is also appaled at what has happened. Like I said, I may never actually get one, but I have big respect for the breed and the dedicated people who would rather win fairly or not at all. :yes:

[walkinghorseowner]

A lot of colts not under saddle will trot in the field. Not all but a percentage of them. Most of them will go to swinging under saddle. I had one boarded here that could easily have passed for a saddlebred, looks and all. Don't know what he did under saddle since he left before he was started. Had a set of hocks on him and right up under himself. But under saddle trotting is counter productive to walking, since the walk is based on the lateral gait the pace.