Is being low backed a huge disadvantage for a show horse?

[iheartasb]

Hi

I'm new here and have a question..

I've seen a very nice saddlebred who is for sale,very sweet and sound.He is a good boy has won some equitation classes at open shows.The only issue he has is a low back.I was wondering if this would be a problem health wise later on or could it be a disadvantage if I show him equitiation or academy.Thanks for any help in this direction.And i forgot he is 14 yr old now.

[vlayne]

Lordosis doesn't affect a horses' soundness or cause back pain, as long as you are using a saddle that fits the horse properly.

In academy and equitation, the horses' conformation is not judged, and a low back horse is often the horse of choice for those divisions because they are easier to ride and can make the rider look better.

If you are showing in performance classes (non-equitation) then yes, a low back will be included in the judging and will knock you down in the ribbons. Some low back horses win, but it is because their performance is so much better than every other horse in the ring.

[3kidsandahorse]

There's low back and then there's LOW backed. If it looks like an elbow in a drain pipe, it's LOW. :tooth:

There are many different pads to raise/pad the saddle that help to camoflage a low back. It also makes it more comfortable on the horse, depending on where the saddle sits in relation to the curve.

My first horse was fairly low backed. 2 pads, 1 a specific low back pad, kept him comfortable. I wouldn't put a bouncing 200+ lb person on him but he could handle my 150+ pretty well, though I don't (usually) bounce. :tongue_smilie: So weight is generally an issue with lowbacked horses.

Usually their heads are fairly high, so it tends to get a horse noticed. I generally show fairly small time, but with careful camoflage I've rarely seen a horse get marked down for low back. I don't show in strip classes so it doesn't get seen as much either. If you don't show in the stake at Lville, I think you'll be fine.

Yeah, I know it's SUPPOSED to be marked down, but does it really in smaller shows?

[SmartAlex]

Yeah, I know it's SUPPOSED to be marked down, but does it really in smaller shows?

Unless the class is stripped, and so very few are in the small shows, you can't always tell if the horse is low backed. I think most low backed horses would be given the benefit of the doubt under saddle and unstripped, unless the croup actually points uphill. And I've seen some! But then, they're probably penalising the non-level croup, and still not sure it's because the back is low :wacko:

[iheartasb]

He is somewhat like the horse in this video

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/lYEFm_jgBEs/default.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.youtube.com/user/LGilpin&usg=__9ObN_GFjt9RXvex2lVwMcxvooFg=&h=90&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=cw8XkKcKVSeXsM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlow%2Bbacked%2Bsaddlebred%26hl%3Den%2 6sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[silvia]

I saw I think at least three equitation horses at Louisville this year that were low backed and won. So I don't think it's a disadvantage.

[roadpony]

As previously mentioned, if you plan to show him in equitation or academy, it won't matter one bit; conformation is not judged in those classes. Low backs are a conformation fault, so be sure not to show him in classes where the horses have to be stripped.

[3kidsandahorse]

Unless the class is stripped, and so very few are in the small shows, you can't always tell if the horse is low backed.

Which classes are stripped? I know Lville but where else.

[vlayne]

Any USEF show that holds a CHAMPIONSHIP class. Stake classes are not stripped, so many shows call their championships "stake" to get around this rule.

[SmartAlex]

All the shows around here (western NY) used to strip their Championship classes, both the A rated, and the non-rated shows. I don't know if they do anymore I haven't stayed to watch a Championship class in the past 8 years or so. I think shows are getting away from it because it costs time.

[pbs]

I have a 18 year old gaited horse in which I showed very successfully for many years it has never effected is soundness. Personally I like a horse that is soft because they usually have the best head sets. A horse has to drop their backs to raise up they already have that done.I wouldn't be afraid to show him one bit.

[Supreme69]

I have seen the video of that horse before and really liked him! The low back horse always have these super headsets.(from what I have seen)

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

[iheartasb]

The one I'm looking at also has a superb head set !

[silvia]

Which is why they are still being bred, and why they now penalise for it in the ring in strip classes.

[vlayne]

Low back horses also have trailing hocks and do not get up underneath themselves very well. And they do not all have good headsets - if the neck doesn't have the correct hinges, they can't flex it. Doesn't matter how low their back is.

[pbs]

Not a of them " trail their hocks" as you say, it took alot of shoeing changes to keep my horse from pulling is shoes at the rack, he would get up under himself so much.

[D_BaldStockings]

Low or soft back counts heavily against any horse that is not a ridden saddle seat show horse in a Saddlebred show.

Whether it badly affects a horse's health or ability to carry a rider for long periods has been debated without any real conclusions. Most non-saddle seat people see it as a weakness and lower the value of the horse accordingly.

Within the Saddle seat SB shows I think it is weighted equally with a horse's performance, which often depends on a high head carriage and lots of front motion so there you have it.

The rules do not reward it. Judges, on the other hand, give their own opinions.

If you like the horse and are not showing at high levels you will likely get on well. If you can't stand to look at it that is another thing and you will not be happy even if the horse is a stellar show horse. It is up to you.

[iheartasb]

Well I did go and see the horse in person and boy I was going to faint when I saw his back without an saddle !! IT was like an elbow in a drain pipe !! The horse was fantastic and it broke my heart that I could not get him but boy !i"ve never seen a horse back like that.:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :

[3kidsandahorse]

Well I did go and see the horse in person and boy I was going to faint when I saw his back without an saddle !! IT was like an elbow in a drain pipe !! The horse was fantastic and it broke my heart that I could not get him but boy !i"ve never seen a horse back like that.:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :

Why couldn't you get him? He's 14, I'm assuming he's in great shape, and you can add pads to cushion his back.

[iheartasb]

Why couldn't you get him? He's 14, I'm assuming he's in great shape, and you can add pads to cushion his back.

He just looks so wierd without a saddle !:sad: The folks at my hunter barn where I would board would kill me if they saw him !They would think I am abusing him as his back incline is really steep

[attafox]

I have to applaud the OP for innately understanding that she is also promoting her breed of choice. With so many pre-conceived notions out there amongst other breeds, this is definitely one occasion that you want to exhibit a structurally correct individual. It is always better to not have to start with an explanation - as some either won't stop and ask, or worse yet, won't ask at all.

You have a wonderful opportunity to showcase the breed while at an all breed barn. Congratulations on a very mature thought process.
:clap: :thumbup:

[3kidsandahorse]

I see your point. Our barn has several low backed horses so we don't think much about them. But you are in a different situation.

Good luck on finding your next horse!

[Paddy's Girl]

I had my Paddy (massive lowback) at the state fair in NY and when a man came up and asked if his back was like that because his rider must be really really fat. :glare:

I loved that guy but I will not own another for the same reasons you described. (And I spent almost as much on custom pads as I did on his show saddle. )

[iheartasb]

I have to applaud the OP for innately understanding that she is also promoting her breed of choice. With so many pre-conceived notions out there amongst other breeds, this is definitely one occasion that you want to exhibit a structurally correct individual. It is always better to not have to start with an explanation - as some either won't stop and ask, or worse yet, won't ask at all.

You have a wonderful opportunity to showcase the breed while at an all breed barn. Congratulations on a very mature thought process.
:clap: :thumbup:


THanks!! :) :) :

[sdlbredfan]

I have to applaud the OP for innately understanding that she is also promoting her breed of choice. With so many pre-conceived notions out there amongst other breeds, this is definitely one occasion that you want to exhibit a structurally correct individual. It is always better to not have to start with an explanation - as some either won't stop and ask, or worse yet, won't ask at all.

You have a wonderful opportunity to showcase the breed while at an all breed barn. Congratulations on a very mature thought process.
:clap: :thumbup:

Absolutely! Especially in mixed breed barns, having the best conformed and best behaved Saddlebred possible is such a good idea.
Jeanie

[D_BaldStockings]

Absolutely! Especially in mixed breed barns, having the best conformed and best behaved Saddlebred possible is such a good idea.
Jeanie

While this is true, we must remember that this horse lost a job over his conformation, his owner lost a sale and our OP was pretty shocked...

A sad situation all around due to breeding away from the standard in an attempt to get a 'better' show horse.

:sad:

[3kidsandahorse]

While this is true, we must remember that this horse lost a job over his conformation, his owner lost a sale and our OP was pretty shocked...

A sad situation all around due to breeding away from the standard in an attempt to get a 'better' show horse.

:sad:

Do people really breed for low backs? Or do they just take what they're given and find a use for it?

[attafox]

I would argue that breeders have bred for a higher neck set, and the compensatory item that happens (sometimes) is the low back.

And Mary, the horse hasn't lost his job. Yes, there was not a sale, but horses lose sales on the basis of conformation on a daily basis. We all "try" horses and reject them for any variety of reasons. This is no different than any other sale process.

[3kidsandahorse]

I would argue that breeders have bred for a higher neck set, and the compensatory item that happens (sometimes) is the low back.

Or is it that the low backs AFAIK are associated with high heads, and those are valuable?

What should be done with low backed horses when they appear? I'm not a breeder, but if I recall the low back comes from Sultan lines. How many horses can claim NO Sultan blood?

I think we've had this discussion somewhere else in the past.

[D_BaldStockings]

Or is it that the low backs AFAIK are associated with high heads, and those are valuable?

What should be done with low backed horses when they appear? I'm not a breeder, but if I recall the low back comes from Sultan lines. How many horses can claim NO Sultan blood?

I think we've had this discussion somewhere else in the past.

Lowbacks are not due to 'Sultan' lines alone, the fault is spread throughout the breed and most horses have 'cousins' that have produced low backs on occasion. Please be careful about blanketing a bloodline with a fault without genetic factors, so many good horses come from a diversity of bloodlines.

I don't think going into the bloodline aspect here is appropriate - a search could be made for the other thread...

Attafox, in this case a very specific conformation fault, which in a minor expression is seen as desirable in the SB show horse venue and is being bred FOR, stopped the sale of this horse to a NEW SB fan.

I say the horse DID lose a job when the OP decided not to buy due to the swayback: Ambassador in a non-saddle seat boarding situation and companion and riding horse to an enthusiastic supporter. She felt unable to enjoy the horse in that setting and you agreed and applauded her choice.

I also think she made the right decision, but I will not miss a chance to comment on what I feel is bad for the breed's future, and why.

[vlayne]

Attafox, in this case a very specific conformation fault, which in a minor expression is seen as desirable in the SB show horse venue and is being bred FOR

This I disagree with. Breeders do not breed FOR a low back. They breed FOR a long hingey neck. They breed FOR a sloped shoulder. They breed FOR strong hocks.

If a low back appears while they are breeding for the other traits, they deal with it. The horse may be missing one or all of the other desired traits.

A low back does not automatically mean a good headset. I've seen plenty of low backed horses who can't set their heads worth a d@mn.

[attafox]

I'm not a breeder, but if I recall the low back comes from Sultan lines. How many horses can claim NO Sultan blood?

I think we've had this discussion somewhere else in the past.

That's why they are doing the DNA study to try and isolate the gene. However, it is throughout the ASB, not in one particular line. Memories' Citation, Fountain of Youth and Chief of Greystone are/were all low or soft-backed individuals, two of which were breeding stallions. None of those three have Sultan in them, and you have to go way back to find relations.

And Mary, the OP will find a Saddlebred that will fit the bill that she needs. It's just not this one.

[D_BaldStockings]

This I disagree with. Breeders do not breed FOR a low back. They breed FOR a long hingey neck. They breed FOR a sloped shoulder. They breed FOR strong hocks.

If a low back appears while they are breeding for the other traits, they deal with it.

If you show 5 breeders pictures of a horse, some will call a back soft, some will say normal but flexible, some will say low.
Those who say normal or soft will breed that horse happily where a long, hingey neck is also apparent. There are no faultless horses, but encouraging breeding of faulty individuals without at least recognizing a fault is a recipe for unpleasant surprises.

As far a breeders dealing with the more extreme variant of the fault, some of the solutions are less than ideal.


I'm sure the OP will find a great SB to fit her needs, there are so many of them out there!

[vlayne]

Well, the fact that you can breed low to low and get straight, and vice versa, perhaps makes breeders more willing to take chances with breeding low backed horses. There's no proven formula yet on how it crops up, let alone how to AVOID it.

[D_BaldStockings]

Well, the fact that you can breed low to low and get straight, and vice versa, perhaps makes breeders more willing to take chances with breeding low backed horses. There's no proven formula yet on how it crops up, let alone how to AVOID it.

You are quite correct, there.

Unfortunately the incidence of this fault does appear to be higher in our breed than in most others, and breeding low-to low and getting straight is stacking the genetic deck of cards unfavorably for the next generation of breeders to deal in my opinion. The more possible jokers in the deck the more likely they will be dealt in the next hand.

A breeder can breed to get one great show horse and a lot of discards, or they can try to breed horses that consistently produce into the future. Neither policy is any guarantee of success, and great performers are what set the show world on fire.

Different perspectives on a very expensive hobby. Sometimes there are no right answers; we all just have to respect each other and yet hold fast to our own opinions.

[scrtwh]

You are quite correct, there.

Unfortunately the incidence of this fault does appear to be higher in our breed than in most others, and breeding low-to low and getting straight is stacking the genetic deck of cards unfavorably for the next generation of breeders to deal in my opinion. The more possible jokers in the deck the more likely they will be dealt in the next hand.

A breeder can breed to get one great show horse and a lot of discards, or they can try to breed horses that consistently produce into the future. Neither policy is any guarantee of success, and great performers are what set the show world on fire.


Absolutely true. Lordosis, in the majority of other breeds, is considered a deformity. Breeding is a crap shoot at best and in a "perfect world" the best would always be bred to the best with some fingers crossed.

[vlayne]

Absolutely true. Lordosis, in the majority of other breeds, is considered a deformity. Breeding is a crap shoot at best and in a "perfect world" the best would always be bred to the best with some fingers crossed.

Well unfortunately some of our "best" come with lordosis. So this, IMHO, harkens back to the judging standards.

Lordosis is the most godawful deformity possible. Other conformation faults such as crooked legs, straight neck, etc create a horse who cannot perform on par with his peers, and thus doesn't make it in the ring to begin with. But it's a case of form to function... the low back, unfortunately, creates a horse who can most likely perform BETTER than one who is conformed perfectly. And therein lies the problem.

[Devil's advocate here]Since the low back creates a horse who can BETTER achieve the desired showring look, should that not become the new breed standard? Isn't a "standard" that which makes performance easiest and most attractive? Sure the horse is ugly without a saddle, but put a saddle on and who can tell?! Really, let's quit pretending we all want flat backs, when the low back horse can do it better.[end advocate speech]

[D_BaldStockings]

Well unfortunately some of our "best" come with lordosis. So this, IMHO, harkens back to the judging standards.

Lordosis is the most godawful deformity possible. Other conformation faults such as crooked legs, straight neck, etc create a horse who cannot perform on par with his peers, and thus doesn't make it in the ring to begin with. But it's a case of form to function... the low back, unfortunately, creates a horse who can most likely perform BETTER than one who is conformed perfectly. And therein lies the problem.

[Devil's advocate here]Since the low back creates a horse who can BETTER achieve the desired showring look, should that not become the new breed standard? Isn't a "standard" that which makes performance easiest and most attractive? Sure the horse is ugly without a saddle, but put a saddle on and who can tell?! Really, let's quit pretending we all want flat backs, when the low back horse can do it better.[end advocate speech]

now, Tiffany,
That is just naughty thinking!

Here's one: "Since there are few WGC in their teens, maybe we should breed horses with fast constitutions -rapid aging genetics, that invariably drop dead suddenly at age 12 because we don't care about them except as show performance horses during a narrow window of years."

Don't get me started about how straight shoulders give you lovely sewing machine FH action so why don't we change the standard to prefer those, too?

Hopefully we are also breeding in the best interests of the horse as a horse, not just because we have the power to effect interesting and damaging changes on the beasts.

[Mona129]

I'm trying to understand this more from an outsiders perspective. If I have this right, if the horses are stripped and lordosis is found its faulted heavily correct? which means its a fault and incorrect. A breed standard is there to improve the breed meaning correct conformation and correct movement. Not one or the other. Why would anyone breed a horse with an obvious genetic fault? Why breed a horse known to carry a genetic trait that is considered a fault in the breed? There are plenty of others to choose from that atleast do not show that they have the fault because their backs look like a P trap. Just stop breeding horses who have this. and if you have a pop up, geld it. Correct movement derived from incorrect conformation is still incorrect.

D i agree, stop breeding it. Attafox, I agree with applauding the OP, I wouldn't want to try to answer those questions either and I HAVE had to. Those of us with other backgrounds (general horse population) who happen to love ASBs have a hard time explaining why breeders would EVER breed a horse who looks like that and frankly I don't think it makes sense either. :glare:

[3kidsandahorse]

Why would anyone breed a horse with an obvious genetic fault? Why breed a horse known to carry a genetic trait that is considered a fault in the breed? There are plenty of others to choose from that atleast do not show that they have the fault because their backs look like a P trap. Just stop breeding horses who have this. and if you have a pop up, geld it. Correct movement derived from incorrect conformation is still incorrect.

Do people actually breed for this? Or does it pop up occasionally? We have geldings (well lots of geldings, actually) but 3 of them are low. We don't breed them. Our broodmares aren't lowbacked, our stallions aren't low backed. So where are they coming from?

[Mona129]

I am not saying breed FOR it but breed it period. A lordosis horse imo, should never see the inside of a breeding shed, hingey neck or not.

[D_BaldStockings]

Do people actually breed for this? Or does it pop up occasionally? We have geldings (well lots of geldings, actually) but 3 of them are low. We don't breed them. Our broodmares aren't lowbacked, our stallions aren't low backed. So where are they coming from?

So where are they coming from...?

We have yet to determine the genetic origins of this fault. But as always, when breeding look to the whole family (cousins, great uncles, etc.) If ANY are low backed, the genes are 'in the lines', hidden. We also don't recognize for the most part that saddlebacked or soft may be the same as genetically low, just at the other end of the expression spectrum (no proof of that, but...) How often they will combine and the foal is low is anyone's guess.

Like a surprise pinto when high white sabino genes get together even though one parent shows almost no white and the other had perhaps a blaze and stocking.

At this point the theory is that excluding visual lowbacked horses from the gene pool should reduce the number of low backs produced. Unfortunately no one is willing to volunteer just how many lows their stock produces, so there are few statistics and they are incomplete.

Hopefully the genetic markers will be found and then we can at least suspect that certain crosses will result in fewer low individuals. Until then I wish everyone luck, especially the horses.

[cfk]

So, within this discussion and ones in the past, has anyone been willing to enumerate the bloodlines that seem to have a proclivity for producing soft/low backed progeny. With many years of excellent record keeping and simple observation, do breeders have a "good idea"? And how about the mares?

[SmartAlex]

I think this horse has been dead long enough for me to call him out... Edna May's King. I'm not sure if he got it from his sire or dam, but if you crossed the lines of his son's Anacacho Shamrock and Anacacho Denmark, even many generations down the line, you could see some extreme examples.
I'm not saying he is the originator or the sole line, not by any means, but that is the line cross I would be most wary of.

[D_BaldStockings]

Waaay back yonder, Sherman Morgan, son of Justin (Morgan breed foundation sire), sire of the great Blackhawk to whom most Morgans and Saddlebreds trace in many lines was low backed.

More recently both Supreme Sultan and Wing Commander have sired low backed horses.

Now if you would like to try and find horses without any of those or their ancestors or decendants in their pedigrees....would it have enough GOOD points to want to breed it? Would it even be registered Saddlebred?

When two nice individuals are bred and a surprise happens, everyone goes on a 'witch hunt'. You don't cut horses out with cookie cutters, breeding is risky. Just be prepared for the possible, and hope for the exceptional combination of good genes to come through.

By the way, there are low backs in the ancestry of most breeds, including TB and the European WBs, but they were not heavily used / it was not appearing along with a highly desirable trait that WAS being bred for.

I won't say I'd never breed a low backed mare if she was one of the few remaining examples of a tail female line that was in danger of dying out.

And as for straights that have low offspring, yes, I'd probably take another chance with that mare, too. (after all, I thought she was good enough to breed into the future generations, so there must be many offsetting good points there.) But breeding is expensive and too many low backs to support would definitely mean I'd have fewer foals annually and be trying different sire lines.

note: I'm too poor to breed anything right now, but if there was funding for it, that is how I'd proceed.

[cfk]

And D_I have an exact opposite instance. A beautifully bred mare, a very close relative of Longview's Paladin , who was extrememly lowbacked. All of her offspring were beautifullly, perfectly straight , had fabulous headsets, great motion, show horse attitude and became nice show horses.
I can't remember...was Edna May's King a lowbacked individual? I've seen many pictures of him and read of him often in the old books and magazines but don't know that I ever heard that mentioned.

[SmartAlex]

Almost any photo from that era would most certainly have been retouched. I don't know if he, or Anacacho Shamrock or Anacacho Denmark were actually low backed, but I can just about guarantee you that they were all carriers. That is where Sultan (grandson of Anacacho Denmark) and Wing (by Anacacho Shamrock) certainly got it from. And cross the two lines as was done to get Champagne Fizz, and you get not only a low back, but a very steady producer of low backs.

[cfk]

My father-in-law is a retired geneticist. I keep trying to get him to play with this. He just rolls his eyes - all things "horse" are a total waste of time as far as he's concerned...sad, he grew up in Stanford, KY in the '30's. You'd think he'd have more of an appreciation! I just find it extremely fascinating in theory. In practice, people get their dander up real fast! (I have found many shots from the '20's and 30's that aren't retouched....but no definitive answers. Even then, it could be disguised)

[vlayne]

I was always told VVS was a major source of it. I have no idea if this is true or not...

[D_BaldStockings]

Inheritance is from the ancestors, through the parents.

Genes don't suddenly come into existence for the most part and finding written references to lowbacked horses in the 1700's is far enough back for me to believe finger pointing to modern sires or dams isn't going to really help, especially with the amount of rumor and hearsay that abounds.
If you have a combination that doesn't produce low backs, quit experimenting!
On the other hand, be sure you can afford the cost of producing lows if your horse's family has some in it.

Most faults require one or several genes from BOTH parents to express themselves, so don't look to one or the other parent -it is both of them combined.

[maytime]

While on this topic, is there any statistical or anecdotal evidence that lowbacked mares have any more difficulty foaling than straightbacked mares? Reproductively speaking, would the reproductive system of a lowbacked mare be compromised or altered in any way due to her physical abnormality.....angles, size, etc.? I do know of one quite lowbacked mare that died while foaling, though she'd produced several healthy foals prior to that instance. I've often wondered if there is extra cause for concern with foaling out a lowbacked mare.

Similarly, I have "heard" several times from several folks that lowbacked horses may have a higher risk of colic (I am assuming due to perhaps an abnormal digestive system in some way?). One trainer I talked to says he really watches how and what he feeds his lowbacked horses.

My "lowbacked" filly (out of a straightbacked mare - Gallant Guy a few generations back though - that I bought in foal to a stud who was phenotypically and genotypically at risk of producing a low back) is a TUB! Wide ribspring and she has always looked like a little pudgeball). I have never had an issue with her in that regard. She is just a wide, chubby little tub and an extremely easy keeper. I have seen other lowbacked horses that look similar, including several WCs. Hope this is the right place for this.

Tim

[kmmed1]

Many years ago, Mrs. Weldon was looking at the two year olds that had been brought in and started. The trainer was very high on one colt in particular, but Mrs. Weldon took one look at him, and said to get rid of him. The trainer asked why, he's a nice colt? Mrs. Weldon replied "He's low backed, Will Shriver does not sire low backed horses."
So the colt was sold for $1500, and he left Callaway Hills.
22 World Champion titles and 13 National Equitation Championships were what he accomplished by the end of his career.
Happily retired at DeLovely Farm, I'm of course referring to the incomparable Callaway's Will Gillen.
I'd have to go look at his breeding, but Willy had other siblings who never accomplished what he did, or sold for as much money as Willy did during his show ring career.
I don't condone the breeding of low backed horses, but I know they have their uses.

[D_BaldStockings]

...and selling them off for nothing (pretending it didn't happen) is how many 'does not sire low backed' have been 'proven'.

I am not casting aspersions on anyone standing a stallion; admit publicly to your horse siring a fault and pretty soon your stallion loses part of his book to another no more deserving horse whose owner either doesn't know or hasn't yet had lightning strike his operation, or has managed to keep the news out of the news.

Keep hoping for markers to be found so we can all make better (though never perfect) choices. And do your homework before choosing your mates. Look at all the family you can.