Selling with "Security Strings" Attached???

[kittymom]

Does anyone have any specific things they do in order (to attempt) to ensure, when selling a horse, that the horse is forever protected from ending up in "the bad place?"

We purchased a pony a couple of years ago and the seller and I came up with a written agreement that clearly specified that he would never be sold before first giving her the option to have him back (in our case, we would return him to her free of any compensation from her.)

Having adopted a horse from Saddlebred Rescue, Inc. and knowing the fate of so many horses that fall into the wrong hands, I am so leary of ever selling a horse. I know that legally, this is a hard thing to tackle so that's why I'm asking for practical advice. It seems that the "grand" horses of our industry almost always have a guardian angel that sees to it that they forever remain safe, but so many others that have had caring former owners, seem to fall thru the cracks.

Any advice would be appreciated!

[Mainmom]

I too have a horse from SBR and have thought about this at length. I think we can 'say' what we'd like when we sell a horse, but the reality is, when you sell a horse to an individual, the horse is in their possession, and having taken money, we as the seller are sort of "out of it". In a perfect world? before selling a horse, the present owner would contact prior owners to give a heads up thus the possiblity of the horse falling through the cracks. In a perfect world.......

I know in my heart of hearts that my wonderful Big belonged to someone who loved him, spent time with him, taught him manners and gave him a very good start in his training.
Of course he went on to spend some time on the road prior to coming to SBR and then to me. There could quite possibly be someone 'out there' who wondered what happened to the gelding they once loved so much........I would so love to tell them.

ETA, I'm not sure it's possible or even the right thing to add "strings" when we sell.

[smurphy0806]

What would be great is if other registries besides the quarter horse would add a greener pastures list!!! Does anyone else remember this? It was posted months ago.

I think it was for the QH. But I may be wrong. It was basically a list on the back of the papers that if that horse ever ended up in a bad situation you could list your name as a contact. You had no obligation to take the horse back. But at least you could try to help.



I know there is a list online that a lot of breeders use. If a horse from their breeding program falls on hard times they list their contact info as a possible solution.
Kross?? Didn't you use this site? Do you know the link?

[asb_own_me]

If there were a solid legal way to enforce these "right of first refusal" clauses, I think it would be common knowledge by now. Past legalities, you end up having to rely on the word of the person who buys the horse. Which does not help many of us rest easy at night :no:

[smurphy0806]

What would be great is if other registries besides the quarter horse would add a greener pastures list!!! Does anyone else remember this? It was posted months ago.

I think it was for the QH. But I may be wrong. It was basically a list on the back of the papers that if that horse ever ended up in a bad situation you could list your name as a contact. You had no obligation to take the horse back. But at least you could try to help.
?

http://www.aqha.com/news/2009PressReleases/03132009greenerpastures.html

here's the press release.

Hint to ASHA - I would even PAY for this ability!!!! I hope you guys implement this SOON!!!

[D_BaldStockings]

Nobody likes threats

I would say your best option is not a string but a pot of gold athe end of the rainbow type offer, like
a euthanasia reimbursement,
no questions asked free rehoming if aged or infirm,
instant 1 month board loan in case of job loss -horse to revert to you if financial situation isn't changed,
free retirement home,
auction alternative agreement

...and then you must keep in touch with whomever has the horse monthly or every 2 months in a friendly manner.

There is no perfect solution, but the more interactive and reasonable you are the more likely they will contact you if life goes sideways on them.

[SmartAlex]

...and then you must keep in touch with whomever has the horse monthly or every 2 months in a friendly manner.


As someone who frequents COTH and reads all the horror stories there... I would say keeping in touch doesn't even do it. You have to SEE the horse. There was one recently involvoing a hoarder, told the former owners (who were out of country and couldn't see first hand) that the mare had an accident and was euthanised. Come to find out, she was taken by animal control. The mare was somehow restored to the rightful owner, but was so poor she ended up having to be euthanised in their care. We could all go on and one about the deceitful and down right wrong scenarios we have heard. All you can do is keep in touch... and pray.

[Mainmom]

Is there someplace that ASHA publishes on a regular basis a list of registered horses when their ownership/papers are transferred? Much the same way property transfers are printed in the local newspapers.


I love the greener pasture concept, awesome!

[mlinky]

There are two issues, knowledge of what is going on with the horse, and enforcement of the contract.

The only way to know what is going on is to be in the area and see the horse regularly. A transfer with ASHA only occurs when someone actually pays to transfer the horse with it's papers. Problems generally arise in other circumstances, not when someone cares enough about the horse to transfer the papers.

Second, if someone breaches the contract, the legal damages are generally the value of the horse, which would be minimal in most situations where the problem is likely to occur. Therefore, people feel free to ignore the contract.

I have been thinking about it and have come to the conclusion that the best answer is including significant liquidated damages in the contract. However, these can be hard to enforce in many states.

[3mares]

I have had a total of three horses in my life and I still have them all. I will until they die. That is my security!

[kittymom]

I am so grateful for the number of responses to my inquiry. Even though no one has the perfect answer, I think if we keep up the dialogue about this subject, we may improve the odds of achieving what we're all interested in doing.

It's too bad that horses can't have a paper trail similar to houses and cars-no one buys a car without getting the title, etc. We also need to factor in the ignorance of some people who may not realize that they're selling their horse to a dealer somewhere down the road and don't contact the former owner about re-purchasing the horse.

Maybe we all would feel better if AHSA could have a place on the reg. papers that offers first right of refusals, etc.

What about tattooing as an id? Could a horse be tagged back to a former owner whereby a dealer couldn't send it to slaughter without that person first being contacted?

Just some thoughts but I really hope we can keep this subject alive~ this can benefit everyone--first and foremost the horse, but also people who would consider selling (thus helping the trainer's bottom line with commissions) if they knew they could get some protection.

2mares~I sincerely applaud you--I also have at least 6 that I've offered this kind of commitment to but I really want to try to solve this issue if not for myself, for others.

[SmartAlex]

What about tattooing as an id? Could a horse be tagged back to a former owner whereby a dealer couldn't send it to slaughter without that person first being contacted?.

There was a discussion somewhere.. probably on COTH, can't remember, where it was suggested that there be a universal NO SLAUGHTER brand (visible from up on the chute)and then the horse would have a microchip or tattoo with it's ID info and who to call. I would support that 1000%. The only glitch I can see is if the person listed as the one to take it back were deceased, there would have to be some provision made for where the horse went.

That wouldn't solve out right abuse, but it would help.

[D_BaldStockings]

Isn't it interesting that it is illegal to slaughter a horse in the USA, and also illegal to ship one out of the country with intent to slaughter, yet we all still refer to certain brokers as kill buyers and talk about horses going on the truck...
Obviously there is a major reality disconnect between what goes on and what laws are made and enforced.

Expecting a horse to get rescued out of the chute due to a no slaughter ID? I don't see that happening.

And a Kill Buyer is just going to toss the papers in the trash, you will never know the horse was sold if you don't have eyes at the auction.

A visual ID (freeze brand, tatoo, etc) beats a microchip -only until the papers get lost. Then someone has to care enough to read the chip.


Sooner or later you have to trust people to do the right thing: most of them do. You can also chat about them with their vet, trainer or farrier; most know if they still have horse X or they have cut back financially and may need to sell or the horse is a nutcase and daddy says it must go.

Don't know who those people are? Well, maybe a little background info on your buyer when you sell the horse is requested.
Keep in touch. There are horse people all over the world, if you ask, someone local can do a drive by no matter how far away the horse travels.

[kittymom]

Perhaps chipping or tattooing is the ONLY way to try to get things changed. Then perhaps the kill buyer would pass on a horse. Let's say a horse is in someone's backyard and the owner calls a kill buyer to come pick it up. When the buyer arrives and sees this tattoo they say "thanks but no thanks-can't process that one." ????? Likewise, let's say a horse goes thru an auction and the auctioneer must announce that it is a no-kill sale. The tattoo could reference a microchip that could contain the details of what needs to happen next. With today's technology, anything should be possible.

What do you guys think?

[rhettdgn]

I'm not sure where your getting the information that it is illegal to slaughter in the US or to ship a horse with the intent to slaughter across the border???........Um.....there is no federal law that bans slaughter in the US. The USDA eliminated the funding for inspectors in the slaughterhouses, so if there is no inspection....there is no slaughter for human consumption. There a few states that have passed laws banning horse slaughter in their states though.

The law regarding the transporting with the intent to slaughter has not been passed and is still sitting waiting for the next activity to happen. There have been a number bills that have been offered and are held in limbo within one committee or another. This is not against the law. It is against the law to transport horses intended for slaughter via double decker trailers though.

Now with the EU documents, 6 month QT w/ health records and excluding any horses that have received prohibited medications, I am hopeful that things change in a big way.

So, neither is illegal......but we can hope!!!!!

I see how quickly a rescuer can read a tattoo and find out who the horse is, but with other breeds it's done with alot of painstaking dedication and work to match up markings and so on. I would love to see a tattoo reference and also a universal symbol within the tattoo to exclude the horse from being a slaughter candidate. If not....just give every horse that you have owned and injection of the many medications on the EU prohibited list. :scared:

[smurphy0806]

Unfotunately tatoos don't always work. I remember Sirius from SBR. A standardbred who had a lip tatoo that if I remember no one, even on ABR, could ID him or even guess at the tatoo. If only things were that easy.

While something on the papers won't protect a horse from a kill buyer at an auction, it may protect the horse from ending up at the auction in the first place. I would hope so at least. In years from now it will be interesting to hear about AQHAs greener pastures success stories. I hope the stories will be posted.

Still waiting for other breeds to come out with a similar option. I can only imagine how much good publicity this concept brought the QH!

[D_BaldStockings]

I'm not sure where your getting the information that it is illegal to slaughter in the US or to ship a horse with the intent to slaughter across the border???........Um.....there is no federal law that bans slaughter in the US. The USDA eliminated the funding for inspectors in the slaughterhouses, so if there is no inspection....there is no slaughter for human consumption. There a few states that have passed laws banning horse slaughter in their states though.

The law regarding the transporting with the intent to slaughter has not been passed and is still sitting waiting for the next activity to happen. There have been a number bills that have been offered and are held in limbo within one committee or another. This is not against the law. It is against the law to transport horses intended for slaughter via double decker trailers though.

Now with the EU documents, 6 month QT w/ health records and excluding any horses that have received prohibited medications, I am hopeful that things change in a big way.

So, neither is illegal......but we can hope!!!!!

I see how quickly a rescuer can read a tattoo and find out who the horse is, but with other breeds it's done with alot of painstaking dedication and work to match up markings and so on. I would love to see a tattoo reference and also a universal symbol within the tattoo to exclude the horse from being a slaughter candidate. If not....just give every horse that you have owned and injection of the many medications on the EU prohibited list. :scared:

Well, it is better to know than to guess wrong; thanks for the update even if the news is bad. I just googled the legislation I was thinking of and pending is a very long, long, endless? time as far as getting legislation through the system.

Even if the horse is drugged, I am afraid they will test the carcass, not the live animal. Unless there is some rescuer actually there ready to take the live horse -and pay for it; the Asian market or pet food is highly likely as an outcome.

Technology is available NOW to microchip and tatoo/freeze brand and also have those marks /note added to the registration papers. You can write any sales agreement clauses you wish that are legal. You can keep an emergency fund to bring back your horse.

You have to follow up on your own horses. The responsibility and possible embarassment or being thought of as a nuisance -is yours.

[rhettdgn]

I have seen instances where the tattoo could not be made out easily....and a few times not at all. There have been many times where a rescue will go to an auction and relay the tattoo....or a few versions of possibles and the database can pull up who the horse is, who owned the horse, it's lifetime earnings.....It's pretty cool to see. Within a few minutes the front lines person knows who the horse is. That is a great happening indeed. That is how the Paragallo horses were found.....and look where that led!!! That tattoo on those 3 or 4 horses that Christy got saved approx. 200 horses that were being neglected at the farm in NY. So......the case for it is stronger than against it in my book.

Maybe a tattoo/freeze brand that notes a non-slaughter symbol, but also has a symbol noting the horse is microshipped which can lead a person to the registry that holds the info/safe haven notation on the registration???? You know..... have one visual to lead to a database or something that gives more detailed info. Now, with that sort of system, think of how something like this could very well save someones beloved retired show horse from meeting a bad end. You would be able to see the tattoo, note the microchip, access the info. from the microchip and call the person listed......the horse can be saved or bought at the auction and that takes the pressure off let's say.....US...having to gather funds, find homes, gather more funds for QT and shipping.......Boy, maybe I'm pulling out of the pitiful state I have been in and looking through rose colored glasses as it's a new day, but there are alot of positives there!!!

Never will I succumb to fully being pessimistic.....the optimism keeps creeping back in!!!! We have to believe there is a simple way to make things better.....We will keep striving for improvement (I am hopeful anyway!) LOL

[D_BaldStockings]

That sounds like a very good chain that is buildable -hope we can get that done?

[wilkinak]

If I came upon a horse I was interested in, and there were there these strings attached AFTER I had it bought and paid for, I couldn't run away quick enough. If you are that concerned about the critter, keep it and pay for it yourself. Other than that, the apron strings are cut once the check is cashed.

I have read the text of the bill that was mentioned, and God help us if it's passed. You could then be prosecuted for the actions of others. Give that a long hard thought before you jump on that bandwagon.

[SmartAlex]

I think the branding and tattooing or microchipping has possibilities. If NOTHING else, it would at least give the angels slogging away at the auction and dealers week after week a group of horses to focus on. How great would it be for SBR, AC4H or other rescuers to walk through the sale barn and actually be able to make phone calls... "there is a bay horse here with a "No Slaughter" mark, and a tattoo referenced to you in the No Kill directory... do you want him back?"

As I'm typing this, my brain is also cooking up fraud scenarios that could branch out from this, "pay pal me $500 and I'll fish him out and deliver him tomorrow" then no horse shows up, but I don't want to completely discount the idea strictly on those possibilities.

[rhettdgn]

If I came upon a horse I was interested in, and there were there these strings attached AFTER I had it bought and paid for, I couldn't run away quick enough. If you are that concerned about the critter, keep it and pay for it yourself. Other than that, the apron strings are cut once the check is cashed.

I have read the text of the bill that was mentioned, and God help us if it's passed. You could then be prosecuted for the actions of others. Give that a long hard thought before you jump on that bandwagon.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by strings being attached????...Do you mean that would take the option of selling the horse to a ....killbuyer and sending it to auction if you chose to?? The no slaughter symbol would have a person attached to it in a database...it would not have to be YOU. I believe that the only string that would be attached would be a willingness to make a phone call saying that you don't want the horse and haven't been able to sell it. (At least that is what I was thinking while I was typing "out loud".

I'm not sure also which bill you are referring to as to the possibility of facing prosecution for actions of others,...can you elaborate??? There are a number of bills relating to banning slaughter and the transport for human consumption and so on....You lost me there!

Smartalex- I believe that when you paypal funds to someone, there is a memo or description for what you are sending the funds for. If there was a description of what the dollars are for.....it is potentially a federal fraud charge waiting for that person. There are safeguards with paypal as well. I would hope that one would try to confirm the legitamacy of a rescue or person associated witha rescue when and if a call was received. Someone really doing this front line rescue is pretty upfront and honest and will give details about who they are and what rescue they work with. I see now that there may be a potential of a unscrupulous character exploiting an owner, but most times it's the real deal. There has to be a way of having a reference for this....???

[wilkinak]

Once I own a horse, if I decide to sell it to a killer that is my business, not the previous owners. You may not like that, but you no longer own the horse. Unlike most on this site, I think one of the worst things that happened was the passage of the slaughter ban. Regulate it yes, prohibit no.

HR 503, which thankfully has not passed, would have made it illegal to sell a horse for slaughter. That's fine & dandy, except that if your buyer is less than forthright, you would be in violation of the law. This fine bill would also have made it possible for the governmment to confiscate any horse at an auction that was "sore." While the intent may be to limit the games played with big lick walkers, that's not what it said.

[SmartAlex]

I would hope that one would try to confirm the legitamacy of a rescue or person associated witha rescue when and if a call was received. Someone really doing this front line rescue is pretty upfront and honest and will give details about who they are and what rescue they work with.

I agree, if I were receiving the phone call I would want to check that I was speaking with a 501c(3) organization and there are checks that can be made. But we all know there are a lot of fruit bat hoarders out there masquerading as rescues who are excellent at playing people's emotions. One way of safeguarding would be making the data base accessible only to the 501c(3) organizations.

[rhettdgn]

Once I own a horse, if I decide to sell it to a killer that is my business, not the previous owners. You may not like that, but you no longer own the horse. Unlike most on this site, I think one of the worst things that happened was the passage of the slaughter ban. Regulate it yes, prohibit no.

HR 503, which thankfully has not passed, would have made it illegal to sell a horse for slaughter. That's fine & dandy, except that if your buyer is less than forthright, you would be in violation of the law. This fine bill would also have made it possible for the governmment to confiscate any horse at an auction that was "sore." While the intent may be to limit the games played with big lick walkers, that's not what it said.

I have to say, respectfully, that I cringe at your comments. While you are perceiving the "decision" as being your business and not the previous owners, I sort of think that is a spiteful way of looking at it. Sort of like the idea of "One prsons trash is anothers treasure." If you have no use for that particular horse what would it matter to make a phone call to whomever is listed and say come get this horse...? If you have the local "disposal" man come and get the horse from your farm anyway....It's just a different number to dial.

There is no ban on slaughter on the federal level, although some states have legislation in place. With the documents being released from the USDA as to how slaughter was "regulated" it's pretty gorey to look through the 900 photos of how the industry conducts their business "humanely". Now if we talk about a horse that poses a danger to any and all around him.....to have that horse put down immediately is truly the ONLY answer for any respnsible horse person. As well as a tragic/severe injury. As to the TWH and soring.....that is another "animal" altogether. I do not agree with the practices of those who do this and/or silently stand by and accept it as normal or standard operating procedure. It's a torturous practice and if the professionals and owners could handle fixing it themselves and all, then the feds wouldn't have had to step in and try to inspect, test and stop it as they do... Years ago, I stood near a warm up ring and watched the big lick horses warming up and got my very pale grey show jods spattered with blood as one went by.......I was an Eq rider back then and still have the jods!!

Have you looked at the photos or read any of the investigative reports on the trucking/auctions/slaughter???? I used to think that it was being dramatized until I started really reading and looking at the materials, not only the anti side, but pro side too.

I don't want this to really focus on slaughter as the true discussion was about selling a horse with a sense of security......a topic that has bothered me since owning my first horse and selling it. Contracts are so easily broken, but I think about the horses and ownership quite differently than the BT/BB so, that is that.

[wilkinak]

I didn't say it was pretty. You may think I'm heartless; I'm OK with that. I prefer realist. And realistically, it is very hard to know where they ultimately go without imposing on another's property rights. So you can't really know unless you keep them yourself.

A friend of mine had this happen with a collie he was given. Some woman gave him the dog because she couldn't keep it and his shepherd was almost dead. He eventually replaced got a new shephard, and after about a year or more, he found he couldn't keep the two of them. Rather than just shoot the collie, or let it wander; he took it to the SPCA. Two weeks later this woman shows up and raises cain because the collie is gone. No one had heard from her since she had dropped it off. "You should have called me!" no one even remembered where the dog had come from. How much did she really care if this was the first time in over a year she had been by?

There are some horses out there that are dangerous, and there are people who end up in a postion where they can't take care of them. I would rather see a bad horse do some good in its life and feed someone, rather than just be a drain on scarce resources. If someone lost their job, and has a half dozen horses and a family to feed, should they also lose all value in those horses because horses have to liquidate in a hurry? Should they keep them for months trying to sell them, send them to an auction, or give them away? Is that your decision to make?


I'm not advocating that the big licks go back to what they were, but I do think it's a bit scary when the Feds start writing laws about confiscating personal property on suspicions, or on whatever a DQP think. Some of the ones I've seen were a bit out there. Besides, if you have a horse that was sored and is healed, what are you supposed to do with it? This really is another subject, but what do you do with a sound, scarred horse? You can't show it & some people would like to throw you in jail if you sell it.

[SmartAlex]

If someone lost their job, and has a half dozen horses and a family to feed, should they also lose all value in those horses because horses have to liquidate in a hurry? Should they keep them for months trying to sell them, send them to an auction, or give them away? Is that your decision to make?

They can surrender the horse to the person who registered it in the No Kill registry, or have it euthanised. THe horse comes with an implanted Easy Out. How many people would love to "get rid of" a horse if they only knew who would want it back or how to reach them?

[rhettdgn]

I guess we are looking at this from two completely different sides. Leave out the way things are right now....

If you purchased a horse and it carried a NS tattoo and was chipped-the owner would be in a database for you to contact. It's not a circumstance of "can't find the owner" or "having to follow a chain of owners" the person listed has made a committment to take the horse back, period. You have a home waiting whenever you would choose to move on.

Like Smartalex says...an easy out solution.

With the new European mandates...many a show horse or performance horse WOULD NOT even be a candidate for slaughter due to medications, treatments, steriods that are totally prohibited on any level to be in the meat.

As to the TWH...you own a horse that has been sored, but is healed, but your not an advocate???....Well, if you don't advocate such a practice and a trainer did that to YOUR horse, wouldn't you file charges against him? (If you do not know or authorize such a practice) If you did know, but choose to let it happen and then worry after the fact, when the horse is done showing.. "What do I do with this horse that carries EVIDENCE of this." Well, it's sort of simple in my mind, you broke the law. Period. So, unfortunately that is why the government passed the law to begin with. That sort of mindset is like...."Oh s@%! now what do I do, anyone that sees this horse can tell." Uh..ho!
Poor horse, worked his tail off, survived and still worked through getting sored his whole career, he carries scars and THEN betray the poor thing by loading him on the truck to poison all those people that will EAT him. (The medicines and chemicals that are used to sore, most likely are extremely harmful to any person eating those horses) Just to say...you wish the animal to not go to waste. How about a persons life or health? Chronic illness with all the medical care needed......expensive.......now that's a waste, not only for the human being, but the almighty dollars for the care. And please do not take the tack that I'm being dramatic. Think about all the caustic products that get topically applied constantly and also ingested and injected.......

[D_BaldStockings]

For whatever reason, you will have people who send the horse to auction or call the KB, YET, if the KB's and auction houses themselves were provided with the chip readers and could see a profit in notifying on a chipped horse, that would at least get the horse in a better place.

There are plenty of horses who have gone paperless to sale on nothing more than an owner's annoyance; childish, petty, but humans are faulty.

Facing up to human failings is part of the process.

[SmartAlex]

So, being my own devil's advocate... what if the registered No Slaughter contact is either deceased or hasn't updated their info and is unreachable? I suppose there would have to be a procedure where that No Slaughter brand could be marked officially Null and Void, but any system like that is going to have processing costs involved.

[rhettdgn]

Since we are talking about a hypothetical program.....I certainly don't have an answer for that!! Just tossing around the idea of the tattoo/microchip. Kittymom was the originator of the concept here and I agree with the idea like totally!!

There would have to be something in place. I think keeping something simple is the best way. If it is too complicated, many won't bother to go through the process would they?

How would you work out the deceased owner issue???

We could go through all the troubleshooting issues we could think of collectively and see what we could come up with for answers to the various situations......??

In as far as I see, it would be pretty cool to ID a horse at an auction just by checking a freezebrand or tattoo. I can see how some would get very nervous about this possibility as the horse would carry it's ID forever.....soo....that would check up people as the accountable for their actions issue could very well arise if the horse was found at a feedlot or the slaughterhouse. so, I see the "backdoor" market being very closed and even more secretive than it is now. I can see a great debate due to this particular scenario.

[D_BaldStockings]

Slightly off topic, but you need to really be sure there is a reasonable expectation of reuniting (I'm talking cost -the horse will not get back to whomever for free in the real world) before expecting overfull rescues to jump into this additional work?

Just food for thought but a read through the euth thread on COTH racing forum may give pause.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=220606

-It is not illegal to sell a healthy horse at auction, any auction. Only obvious extreme neglect or broken limbs are going to "get someone in trouble" with humane orgs/the law.

Saving without funding is NOT a good idea.

[wilkinak]

[QUOTE=rhettdgn;60469]I

As to the TWH...you own a horse that has been sored, but is healed, but your not an advocate???....Well, if you don't advocate such a practice and a trainer did that to YOUR horse, wouldn't you file charges against him? (If you do not know or authorize such a practice) If you did know, but choose to let it happen and then worry after the fact, when the horse is done showing.. "What do I do with this horse that carries EVIDENCE of this." Well, it's sort of simple in my mind, you broke the law. Period. So, unfortunately that is why the government passed the law to begin with. That sort of mindset is like...."Oh s@%! now what do I do, anyone that sees this horse can tell." Uh..ho!"

Rhettdgn, first you assumed it was my horse; it wasn't, and second, you assumed I (or my trainer) did it; not so much. A friend purchased a former big lick horse, recently off pads. He was a little gimpy to begin with because of the drastic change in shoes, but basically OK. When they went to show him, they had trouble getting him through DQP because of what previous owners and trainers, whom they had never met, had done. So he can't be shown in flat shod pleasure classes, and can't be bred. Had the bill that I orginally mentioned passed, they would be at risk if they ran him through an auction. As it is they are at risk if they take him to a show, even though he is sound. My point was that these things have unintended consequences, that aren't expected or thought through. These people bought the horse to to have something for their daughter to show and save him from the big lick world, and are now SOL to some degree because they did the right thing.

I don't have a problem with DQP in theory, but I do see some problems with the practical side of tightening the rules having been around situations like this.

[jshay]

Wilkinak, you are the EXACT reason why people like the original poster are trying to keep track of their horses they sell.

If you have a DANGEROUS or old horse, do the responsible thing and put it down. The vet hospital in my area does this for a very low cost, I think we had a very old one who had to be euthanized several years ago and it was $40 at the clinic/hospital.

[kittymom]

As usual, jshay is exactly on the mark. That is what I would do in that situation. The hard part is to sell a younger horse and keep track of it throughout its lifetime. Like I said earlier, if it stays in the show horse "loop" so to speak, a person can track it online thru asha and also thru auction consigment info. It's the ones that fall out of the mainstream that cause me this concern.

[jshay]

Well, this whole thread kinda hits home, because I am scared to sell anything, it seems so easy for them to get in the wrong place....and I have a whole bunch in my field that most would take to a "sale" but I just keep them, I only hope I live longer than them....my vet was out today for shots and she was amazed at how good my 26, 19, 18 and 15 year olds looked.

BTW, I have all my dogs microchipped....and my brother has his Aussie as well.....well Aussie took off one day to herd something and lost his collar.....ended up at dog pound and we found him there, they had not checked him for his chip. I asked about it, they said they had not gotten to it yet, but I always thought they did that right away??? Anyhow, if dogs in this situation are not checked for chips, I have serious doubts that anybody would check a horse, unless the govt mandates it, which is longshot.

[D_BaldStockings]

Exactly true jshay, about the checking aspect vs. neglecting to do it.

On the other hand unchipped animals are almost impossible to trace, think of all the chestnut geldings that go through New Holland, shipshewanna, etc. etc.; if you demand that a suspect animal be scanned it could prove to be yours -if it was chipped = definitely might give some a bit more reason to hesitate, it could buy the horse time, which can make all the difference.

[jshay]

Do New Holland and Shipshewana have the wand to check for microchips? I am curious...and if they have the wand, do they check?

If most sales do, then I will chip everything i breed and sell.

[rhettdgn]

They probably wouldn't check for a chip. but I bet a shiny new dime that the rescues would invest in a wand if it made it easier to find owners that were listed offering a safe home. It could make a big difference in horses being reunited and getting safe. It could reduce the number of horses that are at rescues with no way to I.D. them.

As of October(yes, this October) horses will have to be held for 6 months QT-if they hold a lefetime health record as the new mandates from Europe will go into effect in April 2010. At least that what it says is the mandate...as to the enforcement of it....we will not be able to predict that part!