value anticipation

[Simon Fredricks]

In the current economic climate it is essential that breeeders have a sobering
anticipation of the value of ASB horses. To do that it is necessary to accurately
evaluate the Demand for the Product and to assess the confidence of the potential
buyers. Those are the criteria that are needed to prognosticate the future of the
ASB market.
Those who sell real estate talk about the "highest and best use" of a property. For
the ASB horse it is the show ring. All this blather about the secondary market and
selling the ones that don't make show horses to be sport participates not withstanding.
We can have a sincere and even profound love for the ASB without having to make
a monthly monitary donation to breed them. But they can NOT be long bred by serious
breeders if there is not a demand for the product and a buying public that
has confidence in the future of their value.
With the current climate of a poor demand for the middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000)
it is going to be difficult to maintain the number of breedings per year.
It appears that today the buying public has very little appetite for buying a quality prospect
and that is sobering. The demand for a showhorse already successful in the showring
at a very cheap price will not sustain the market.
Only a significant increase in a demand for the ASB coupled with a return of confidence
in their value by the buying public can sustain serious breeding programs

[mand_asbfan]

middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000)


I don't know... maybe its me but I consider a horse that costs as much if not more than my annual salary the upper market....

[SmartAlex]

With the current climate of a poor demand for the middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000)
it is going to be difficult to maintain the number of breedings per year.
It appears that today the buying public has very little appetite for buying a quality prospect
and that is sobering. The demand for a showhorse already successful in the showring
at a very cheap price will not sustain the market.

The key to increasing the market for your "middle market" is hooking new people with the lower market. As in $5,000 horses. We are not talking about people who are out buying their first house. We are talking about a first horse. Everyone I know who was not born into the show horse world started with a few horses to ride around the farm. These people went on to buy farms, hire trainers (live-in ones, not the public barn scenario), and breed large numbers of horses. They have been value added members of our industry. You really really limit yourself when you target your growth to an audience who can afford the luxury of a horse who's purchase price is somewhere in the range between their car and their first house.

Secondly, most people who start out riding around the farm are not capable of, nor interested in maintaining a "show horse". That's when we get into all that blather about the secondary sport horse market. But, I'm not even going to bother turning down that path.

[D_BaldStockings]

In the current economic climate it is essential that breeeders have a sobering
anticipation of the value of ASB horses. To do that it is necessary to accurately
evaluate the Demand for the Product and to assess the confidence of the potential
buyers. Those are the criteria that are needed to prognosticate the future of the
ASB market.
From the breeders’ perspective:
1. What is the product?
2. Who are the buyers?
3. What is the relationship between cost of producing my product as it now is presented vs. buyer demand for that product as presented?


Those who sell real estate talk about the "highest and best use" of a property. For
the ASB horse it is the show ring. All this blather about the secondary market and
selling the ones that don't make show horses to be sport participates not withstanding.
The highest and best use of a property depends on
1. Buyer demand for types of properties.
2. Seller ability/willingness to package properties for those market types.


We can have a sincere and even profound love for the ASB without having to make
a monthly monitary donation to breed them. But they can NOT be long bred by serious
breeders if there is not a demand for the product and a buying public that
has confidence in the future of their value..

Producing a product for a non-existent or declining market is an exercise in futility.
Either
1. Change your product stance/perception to take advantage of an existing growing market
2. Pump funds and excitement into the declining market to turn it around
3. Reduce production severely and produce something else.

With the current climate of a poor demand for the middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000)
it is going to be difficult to maintain the number of breedings per year.
It appears that today the buying public has very little appetite for buying a quality prospect
and that is sobering. The demand for a showhorse already successful in the showring
at a very cheap price will not sustain the market.

The buying public for show horses is driven by trainers. They tell their clients which horse to buy. Trainers make money on turnover of horses = commissions, keeping their clients in the ribbons = in lessons and training and showing from their barns. Prospects are a more costly investment for trainers and amateur riders than even novice or low level trained show horses.
If product “A” the untrained show prospect is unsaleable, then product “A+” the started show horse must be explored for cost viability. Or product ‘B’ the just misses prospect needs to be started for other PROFITABLE disciplines.
Current marketing avenues –like word of mouth, are being leapfrogged by e-business, blogging, youtube, viral marketing…I don’t even know or understand most of the next generation’s marketing ability, but it is lightning fast and effective.

Only a significant increase in a demand for the ASB coupled with a return of confidence
in their value by the buying public can sustain serious breeding programs

Breeding programs can no longer be stand alone enterprises if the pool of trainers wanting to buy for clients dries up.
That involves a huge shift in thinking and the way the horse business will evolve.
As well as a great product, really great marketing, involving knowledge of the modern client base growing out of the next generation is absolutely necessary.

During Depressions and Recessions, Hope, Excitement, Laughter and Exhilaration are pretty big sellers. Escapist entertainment and fantasy are big sellers. As entertainment, Saddleseat show Saddlebreds can be peerless. I think Exhibitions need to be reinstated and expanded to other venues outside the Saddlebred-only show. Or especially the existing Horse show and fair expos around the country.

There was a time when the great Pacer Dan Patch toured the country from a private railcar to give exhibition miles and was a huge crowd pull. Montrose needed a police cordon to get to the show ring. Rex McDonald, even more recently Wing Commander, Denmark’s Daydream, Skywatch and Imperator had people crowding in to see great rivalries.

In Europe today, Dressage Freestyle now has much the same pull. As does Natural Horsemanship exhibitions.

I’m not saying do dressage or do NH. I am saying look at their marketing. Look at the marketing giant of Nascar.
How available is information about them?
How well publicized are they?
How intimately into their barns and lives can bystanders get?
How good are they at infecting others with their passion?
How good are they at presenting the simplicity (HA!) of what they do?
How easy is it to get involved at a novice level?

This is how to grow whatever market interests you.

Buffalo Bill’s Wild West show was a huge success in it’s day. The audience changed, the romance of the west faded, movies were invented, the performers aged out. The point is that extravaganza was replaced by other entertainment, not because it was poor, but because the audience had moved on. The audience is FICKLE, always on the move and must be captured to keep a leisure activity in the profit zone.

(boy I hope this quoting attempt worked and this post is somewhat readable)

[SaddlebredMom]

With the current climate of a poor demand for the middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000) it is going to be difficult to maintain the number of breedings per year.

middle market ( $50,000 to $100,000)
I don't know... maybe its me but I consider a horse that costs as much if not more than my annual salary the upper market....



Ouch -- Me too. :ohmy: Maybe the classification of that range as "middle market", especially in today's tough economic times, is a big part of the problem (no disrespect intended Dr. Fredericks).

[virtualasb]

This is what has prompted me to go over to the dark side and purchase the homozygous pinto stallion, Prince's Kelley McBride. I think this will open up some markets and let me keep breeding a few colts a year. How many times have we seen finished 2-3 year olds in double bridles bring $2500 at tattersalls and a pinto untrained with basically no pedigree bring $10,000. This is a product that people evidently want. I love my Sky King colts but if they are average as many are and every other studs too. Then they are going to eat me alive in expenses before I can sell them even as a riding horse. At least if it has spots then it can be sold even if it is average. 2 other things that have ruined our markets IMO is shipped semen which sends costs so high and does not get people out to the farm to see colts and mares and maybe buy one. Second is tail sets on pleasure horses. This has killed us. Too much work for the working man that may not be able to work his horse but a few times a week. This division has been destroyed from What Irene zane intended years ago. And dont get me started on that uncut tail class at Louisville. That's about as dumb as homemade soap as my dad would've said!!

Wendy

[Spartacus]

Wendy
Spot on with the note on the collection of semen. That should be changed by the Assoc. to help the breeders especially with todays market. The breeders have to do better than just dollar cost avg'.ing in order to stay open for buisness. I think in the next few years, maybe even sooner we may be wondering were the prospects have all gone. Also, telling prospective breeders of wild costs does not help either. Breeding operations need the mare care funds to keep going live cover should be the norm not the exception the THB have made a great buisness plan off of this and the ASB had better get back to this or be gone. Finally, I would have put the mid range at $15,000 to $35,000 for a 2yr old unfinished colt, and that is unfinished; put work into the colt with wearing leather and driving is a plus and should be compensated just the same.

[Breezy]

When you're looking at markets you should understand the market you're analyzing. To keep the real estate theme Dr. Fredricks is talking about the market in alarge city the rest of you are talkig about Peoria. Some of the major barns consider mid market as 50-100k other barns think more like 15-25k. With an industry that is shrinking regionaly to mostly one state. Is why lesson programs are so important also retaining customers to the state they live in. Also writers on this thread should work with their congressional reps to get tax laws changed so breeders investors and owners have some capitol gains help like it used to be when young horses were good investment.
Wendy hope your new income stream works well

[kross]

Fredericks I've decided you live a world the rest of us would like to exist in.

[sdlbredfan]

Wow, this is a great topic and I agree with all the responses, but not the original post that started it. The comments "I've decided you live a world the rest of us would like to exist in" and the responses to the OP's 'middle market' out of ballpark figures were excellent and sum up the 'real world' assessment very well. The OP obviously inhabits an alternate reality and diferent plane of existence than the majority of those who love Saddlebreds do. (He is indeed blessed to be in that rarefied economic stratum, however that is NOT the 'real world' that the Saddlebred horse must fit into, in order to avoid extinction.)

[Fairfax]

The largest jumper show in the world is held in Calgary Alberta at Spruce Meadows, a private facility. The National, one of three international shows, is held in September. Equi-Fair, Smart Dogs, International bands and musical groups, three tents of horse related products from around the world (Mercedes makes a horse trailer? who knew) and booths representing ethnic groups, Dutch, German, English, Portuguese, Danish...usually around 50 plus groups. Attendance: 325,000 for Thurs-Sun. Prizes are in the millions and horses arrive from all points of the world. They attract horse iindividuals and non horse individuals and this bodes well. There is a challenge of the breeds...Saddlebreds are seen by thousands during the competition against, Arabs, Morgans, Paints, Qh, Ponies etc.

Immediately after...stables report an increase in interest and sales of horses increases "to previous non horse owners". Not just in the area of Calgary but with many of the advertisers at the show from different states and provinces.

Associations, be they Saddlebred, Arabian AQHA etc advertise to themselves...they attempt to entice current horsemen from one breed to another.

They need to promote to non horse owners. Advertising should appear in Oprah, Robb Report (I used it many years ago for my Afghan Hounds with great international success), or any other medium that is NOT a horse publication.

According to FOX, the median income in the U.S. is currently $26,974.00 per year. Middle class is $60,000-270.00.00 and upper is split into two catagories of $300,000-10 million and then 10 million plus.

There are always going to be great sales and medium sales and clear out sales. Each one meets the needs of specific sellers and buyers. Many farms are still reporting weanling sales in amounts of 10,000 to 50,000. I am sure some of this is due to the success of the All American Cup.

Saddlebreds are unique over most other breeds. There is a market for TRAINED representatives from 5 years to 20 years. The equitation and lesson programs are the reason for that success. We are lacking in attracting young males to the industry however the young ladies are sure holding their own in open and breed specific shows.

I live on the Montana border. Far from the center of the Saddlebred universe. However, I have had visitors from South Africa, 16 states in the U.S., 10 provinces and England and Germany. They come for the B & B and leave with information regarding Writing On Stone AND the American Saddlebred. One family from South Africa have acquired a Saddlebred in their home country.

Advertising is not just the responsibility of an association. It is up to each one of us to determine our extent of involvement in promotion.

I agree that the show ring is the arena of competition most breeders aim for. When we breed for the top, we must acknowledge that many Saddlebreds will not be in that league. Therefore we must also develope alternative markets. Dressage, Endurance, Competative trail riding are all emerging areas for Saddlebreds. Prices in my province are generally 5,000-25,000 for a 5 to 8 year old riding trained horse. That is in the current market.

There is a market for the Saddlebred. From family owned companion to investor at the top of the game. There is an untapped market in the upper wealthy. We must promote to them as do select travel resorts, car manufactures, jewelry stores and clothing designers.

The market is not to blame. It is our inability to reach that market that can be improved upon.

Leo

[Thunderstruck]

While I am as concerned as anyone about the state of our breed, I'm wondering if we aren't doing it to ourselves. That $50,000 - $100,000 being the middle market is shocking...especially to those who didn't grow up in the sport. It's even shocking to me since I took a 24 year break from it and came back in 2003.

The prices of our horses are FAR outpacing inflation over the last 30 years. In 1973 my Mom and Dad purchased my first "real" show horse, a junior walk-trot mare, for the grand sum of $7,500. That was a pretty "normal" price for a mid level horse. She eventually was Louisville or near Louisville quality although we never made it there (us country folk just didn't travel far for shows back then) and we won pretty much everywhere we went. If you adjust $7,500 for inflation you get around $32,500. To get a horse of her quality today you'd have to pay in the $50,000 - $75,000 range...maybe higher. That's double the rate of inflation at the high end and most people's salaries and benefits aren't even keeping up...especially now when we aren't even sure we'll HAVE a job next week or next year.

While I symphathize with the breeders' position I have to wonder if they are doing everything they can to make sure the market is out there. Top Dresssage and Hunter/Jumper prospects sell for as much or more than our Saddle seat prospects, yet we are virtually ignoring this market. Trail riders and people that just want a backyard horse are the perfect market for the ones that just can't hack it as show horses...yet we end up dumping the vast majority of them at auctions were they go god knows where because the people that are out there looking for a good backyard horse don't even know what an American Saddlebred is!

I DO have the appetite for a quality prospect...but I have been priced out the market. I have to take "not so quality" horses and do the best I can with them. To use a car analogy its fun to take my Chevy Malibu and blow the doors off some guy in a Porsche...but I'd rather be able to afford the Porsche. I used to be able to...now I can't and adjusting the salaries then and the famly total now for inflation tells me I should be able to afford a more expensive horse than I did 30 years ago and I can't even come close!

Sorry breeders but reality bites, and that's the way it is for me...your potential buyer.

[silvia]

The most expensive stud fees are still only four figures. Where are these prices coming from?

[attafox]

I have to take issue with the statements regarding shipped semen. Being out here on the left coast, we have very few studs to choose from. Shipped semen allowed me to breed my mare on an affordable basis (rather than the cost of shipping her to West Virginia to the stud, mare care, keep her there rather than slip the foal on the return journey, etc.). If it weren't for shipped semen, we'd have an even more KY centric breed than it already is.

[Paddy's Girl]

The whole original post boils down to one thing in my mind.

Better to blather and search for an alternate route than to pontificate and stop on a road waiting to be re-built.

[ASB Stars]

The whole original post boils down to one thing in my mind.

Better to blather and search for an alternate route than to pontificate and stop on a road waiting to be re-built.

Well said!

However, my question to the OP would be "when did you notice?"

I would seriously doubt that selling horses in the "mid-range" of 50-100K became an issue to the OP, when he was selling the first generation of his breeding program. This would comprise the produce of Denmark's Radiant Society. I tend to think that, when selling the second generation, the "problem" of having to look for buyers of horses that were not the equal of the first generation, surfaced.

The notion that we are going to be able to move forward without diversifying our marketing, is absurd. There is not one successful corporation out there right now that has not had to investigate producing their products in a broad range of price points, in order to survive, let alone prosper. Even the luxury car makers have re-structured their price points- and how about those used cars, with the fabulous spin on the value, and warranty?

Sadly, people like the OP- who currently has no dog in this fight, btw- are attempting to turn back the progress that has been made in bringing the ASHA into the 21st century. Considering that it had to be brought forward from the 19th century- this has been a labor Job would not envy.

There is no way to go back to the "good old days" that the OP was so successful in- regardless of what the "good old boys" want us to believe. We MUST choose to go forward, and forge new trails for this breed, if we want to have these fabulous horses for the future. This means finding new markets which support the efforts of the breeders, and every single horse they produce...but enough blather, for now.:whistling:

[SmartAlex]

I have to take issue with the statements regarding shipped semen. Being out here on the left coast, we have very few studs to choose from. Shipped semen allowed me to breed my mare on an affordable basis (rather than the cost of shipping her to West Virginia to the stud, mare care, keep her there rather than slip the foal on the return journey, etc.). If it weren't for shipped semen, we'd have an even more KY centric breed than it already is.


I agree :thumbup1: I was going to ask Wendy and the other poster to expand on how they feel shipped semen is hurting us. Maybe it is hurting the sale of colts, which is what I think Wendy was getting at. Because I am not going to the farm to see all of the great prospects available in addition to what I am trying to breed on my own. As for number of breedings, I disagree. The last three colts we've bred have been AI. The first two because the appropriate stallions were more than a day's travel away. The third and most recent, the stud is nearly in our back yard, but the mare wouldn't settle the first year with live cover, so we did AI with the stallion right there at the same facility. I would have gone broke trying to get her settled with live cover.
Now, if you're going to argue that AI is OK, but shipping is not, then you still run into cost constraints. It would up my costs to haul the mare 500 miles, board her for 30-60 days regardless of live cover or AI.

[longshanks]

The big words and fancy language used by Mr. Fredericks sounds impressive, but I can't help but feel like he is totally missing the mark. Perhaps taking some marketing classes would be time well spent.

[Simon Fredricks]

If you are not the lead dog pulling the sled the view never changes.
I thank all the contributors to this thread It has for me been informative and
educational.
I have always admired and respected those who are capable of hands on involvement
in their breeding endeavor and most often live on the land with their horses. That is
the true experience. Their perspective and mine are different. I could not provide the
time or physical effort that daily care requires. So my breeding contribution was
always funding the breeding endeavor and directing the operation and making
the breeding decisions. Therefore I always required Board and Training from
others and that shifts the cost and then the required return on investment upward.
The alternative is to have your own facility and hire professional help. My cost
analysis led me to believe you don't save any money but you add the troubles of
ownership.
Breeding was a magical experience and gave my family much pleasure.
The ASB was for me a breathtaking spectacular and beautiful creation.
For me the ASB as a SHOW horse was the highest and best expresssion of its
potential. If that is being part of the old boy network-I am. Other expressions
of use has never thrilled or interested me.
So-I wish you all well and hope that time and circumstances are kind to you all.

[vlayne]

For me the ASB as a SHOW horse was the highest and best expresssion of its
potential. If that is being part of the old boy network-I am. Other expressions
of use has never thrilled or interested me.

Honestly, what interests the manufacturer is completely irrelevant. What interests the BUYER is much more valid a concern. And, when a successful company suddenly finds itself without customers, they are left with but three choices - they either close their doors, try to find new customers for the same product, or add a new product that might attract the old customers AND new customers.

Which seems to make the most sense, from a business standpoint? Well, it depends on your goal. Since the goal of most breeders is to ultimately sell horses, it would seem most logical to attempt to broaden the customer base - and the broadest possible base will require more than one product. This means finding buyers for Product B, the "not quite good enough for prime time" colt. Not buyers who want to use it as their main means of transportation, because there is no profit for the breeder in that. Instead, buyers who will spend JUST AS MUCH as the buyers for Product A do.

Whether or not Product B is "of interest" to the breeder is irrelevant. Inevitably, they will show up in the pool of colts on the ground, most likely outnumbering Product A. Getting the most retail dollar for them makes the best business sense, and will allow the continuation of production of Product A.

And $50,000-100,000 is NOT the middle market. Not even close. A horse priced in that range should be showing on the green shavings. Therefore, if that were what most of us were spending for our show horses, that would mean most of us would be warming up on Stopher's Walk come August.

[SmartAlex]

And it isn't just marketing Product B, how about marketing the "waste product".
Remember when we used to get shavings for free to bed the stalls with... you know, "just come and pick it up, and we're happy to get rid of it"?
Now, we have to buy it bagged or pelleted, or beg/borrow/steel what won't fit in the truck when it is shipped to the stove pellet people. Absolute BRILLIANCE! Saw mills are making as much, if not more on the waste product than they are on the lumber.
Now, how many of them are saying... "No, I refuse to look into finding a buyer for my pine shavings because The Only Thing That Interests Me, is these beautiful Doug Fir beams"

WT>>>youknow? :confused1:

[Teon]

The Saddle Horse evolved from quality stock intermixed to produce the ultimate in riding horse quality in disposition, performance and beauty. I have always found that marketing quality sells it's self. The ultimate is a show horse expressing the qualities in which it was bred for and perpetuates the goals which were first set out in the development of this breed.
Some of us may forget..."You may have spent $5,000.00 and won $100.00 but you had a Million Dollars worth of fun".

To choose to breed and what to, is a passion. To crunch numbers in any way or form in the horse business requires a little imagination to be profitable. I know I can set up a Kool-Aid stand at the corner and possibly make more money on a hot day. But then where would I be. You have to have Quality first. You have to be lucky within your best guesses, having money or not sometimes don’t play into the reality. It is much easier to sell a $100,000.00 horse then it is to sell a $5000.00 horse. The highest caliber Saddlebreds are becoming rarer and will always command a higher price. I think in the end we all get it.

[rhettdgn]

In my very humble opinion: Your idea of "high caliber" is the horse trotting through the gait at Louisville. That is more of a personal preference than a broader statement of "high quality". I'm not attacking your opinion, I am a diehard 3-gaited fan. I have ridden in a cutback as far back as I can remember. I feel that this breed is way more capable to perform in all disciplines, not only in the realm of Saddle Seat.

I think that the ideals of keeping this an "eliteist" type breed/in the same discipline is a dis-service to the breed as a whole. The history is just that...history. We need to feel confident that "quality" is being produced and market these horses in all the very many disciplines in which they are able to excell in, not only the "Louisville" show horse.

How many Saddlebreds earn the WC status on a yearly basis? Compare that to the number of registered foals every year and you get about 10%! So what about the rest of those horses? The high caliber horse is more of a rarity today than lets say in the 70's and 80's due to the decline of the membership and interest within the Saddlebred industry.

It is much easier to sell a 5,000.00 horse that is a decent horse than a big dollar horse. There is a greater demand overall for a reasonably priced horse that is more obtainable for more people.

Times have changed and change we must.....Leo had a great comment as to why do we advertise within ourselves and not in the "public"? That actually doesn't make any sense what-so-ever! Great point as well as so many made.

I respectfully disagree with the "good ole boy" ways and mentality-it will be the undoing of the breed as a whole.

[SmartAlex]

It is much easier to sell a 5,000.00 horse that is a decent horse than a big dollar horse. There is a greater demand overall for a reasonably priced horse that is more obtainable for more people.


We traded a common sort of bald faced ASB filly we acquired inutero to a nice public trail riding stable nearby. That lady rode her for a year on trails, and sold her for $5000 as a grade horse to a family with kids. The mare has a nice life. Had we taken her to TSE, we would have gotten about $650 and she would have been pounding the pavement. Yes, well conformed, sound, sane horses have a market if you set your sights at it.

[D_BaldStockings]

The largest jumper show in the world is held in Calgary Alberta at Spruce Meadows, a private facility. The National, one of three international shows, is held in September. Equi-Fair, Smart Dogs, International bands and musical groups, three tents of horse related products from around the world (Mercedes makes a horse trailer? who knew) and booths representing ethnic groups, Dutch, German, English, Portuguese, Danish...usually around 50 plus groups. Attendance: 325,000 for Thurs-Sun. Prizes are in the millions and horses arrive from all points of the world. They attract horse iindividuals and non horse individuals and this bodes well. There is a challenge of the breeds...Saddlebreds are seen by thousands during the competition against, Arabs, Morgans, Paints, Qh, Ponies etc.

Immediately after...stables report an increase in interest and sales of horses increases "to previous non horse owners". Not just in the area of Calgary but with many of the advertisers at the show from different states and provinces.

Associations, be they Saddlebred, Arabian AQHA etc advertise to themselves...they attempt to entice current horsemen from one breed to another.

They need to promote to non horse owners. Advertising should appear in Oprah, Robb Report (I used it many years ago for my Afghan Hounds with great international success), or any other medium that is NOT a horse publication.

According to FOX, the median income in the U.S. is currently $26,974.00 per year. Middle class is $60,000-270.00.00 and upper is split into two catagories of $300,000-10 million and then 10 million plus.

There are always going to be great sales and medium sales and clear out sales. Each one meets the needs of specific sellers and buyers. Many farms are still reporting weanling sales in amounts of 10,000 to 50,000. I am sure some of this is due to the success of the All American Cup.

Saddlebreds are unique over most other breeds. There is a market for TRAINED representatives from 5 years to 20 years. The equitation and lesson programs are the reason for that success. We are lacking in attracting young males to the industry however the young ladies are sure holding their own in open and breed specific shows.

I live on the Montana border. Far from the center of the Saddlebred universe. However, I have had visitors from South Africa, 16 states in the U.S., 10 provinces and England and Germany. They come for the B & B and leave with information regarding Writing On Stone AND the American Saddlebred. One family from South Africa have acquired a Saddlebred in their home country.

Advertising is not just the responsibility of an association. It is up to each one of us to determine our extent of involvement in promotion.

I agree that the show ring is the arena of competition most breeders aim for. When we breed for the top, we must acknowledge that many Saddlebreds will not be in that league. Therefore we must also develope alternative markets. Dressage, Endurance, Competative trail riding are all emerging areas for Saddlebreds. Prices in my province are generally 5,000-25,000 for a 5 to 8 year old riding trained horse. That is in the current market.

There is a market for the Saddlebred. From family owned companion to investor at the top of the game. There is an untapped market in the upper wealthy. We must promote to them as do select travel resorts, car manufactures, jewelry stores and clothing designers.

The market is not to blame. It is our inability to reach that market that can be improved upon.

Leo

WOW!
Leo, this is one of the BEST posts I have seen on the board.

I'm excited to say I've saved and printed it to energize and inspire me to greater personal efforts promoting my horses and the breed as a whole.

'Preachin' to the choir'and looking for 'big fish in shallow ponds' has been my recipe for frustration. Guess I'll have to venture out of the comfy church and the kiddie pool, into the great big ocean!
There are worse things than risking a ducking or a non-believer's backlash, I (and maybe we all) need to step out of that comfort zone and get busy.

Thanks!
Mary

*******

Dr. Fredericks,
I am glad you started this thread. It is past time for some stimulus for growth for our breed or breeders will opt out. Time is of the essence; no one can regain lost bloodlines if there is no breeding.
Your posts are always timely and honest expressions of your point of view on important issues the Saddlebred supporters need to address.

Thank you for your insight.
Mary

[SaddlebredMom]

The largest jumper show in the world is held in Calgary Alberta at Spruce Meadows, a private facility. The National, one of three international shows, is held in September. Equi-Fair, Smart Dogs, International bands and musical groups, three tents of horse related products from around the world (Mercedes makes a horse trailer? who knew) and booths representing ethnic groups, Dutch, German, English, Portuguese, Danish...usually around 50 plus groups. Attendance: 325,000 for Thurs-Sun. Prizes are in the millions and horses arrive from all points of the world. They attract horse iindividuals and non horse individuals and this bodes well. There is a challenge of the breeds...Saddlebreds are seen by thousands during the competition against, Arabs, Morgans, Paints, Qh, Ponies etc.

Immediately after...stables report an increase in interest and sales of horses increases "to previous non horse owners". Not just in the area of Calgary but with many of the advertisers at the show from different states and provinces.

Associations, be they Saddlebred, Arabian AQHA etc advertise to themselves...they attempt to entice current horsemen from one breed to another.

They need to promote to non horse owners. Advertising should appear in Oprah, Robb Report (I used it many years ago for my Afghan Hounds with great international success), or any other medium that is NOT a horse publication.

According to FOX, the median income in the U.S. is currently $26,974.00 per year. Middle class is $60,000-270.00.00 and upper is split into two catagories of $300,000-10 million and then 10 million plus.

There are always going to be great sales and medium sales and clear out sales. Each one meets the needs of specific sellers and buyers. Many farms are still reporting weanling sales in amounts of 10,000 to 50,000. I am sure some of this is due to the success of the All American Cup.

Saddlebreds are unique over most other breeds. There is a market for TRAINED representatives from 5 years to 20 years. The equitation and lesson programs are the reason for that success. We are lacking in attracting young males to the industry however the young ladies are sure holding their own in open and breed specific shows.

I live on the Montana border. Far from the center of the Saddlebred universe. However, I have had visitors from South Africa, 16 states in the U.S., 10 provinces and England and Germany. They come for the B & B and leave with information regarding Writing On Stone AND the American Saddlebred. One family from South Africa have acquired a Saddlebred in their home country.

Advertising is not just the responsibility of an association. It is up to each one of us to determine our extent of involvement in promotion.

I agree that the show ring is the arena of competition most breeders aim for. When we breed for the top, we must acknowledge that many Saddlebreds will not be in that league. Therefore we must also develope alternative markets. Dressage, Endurance, Competative trail riding are all emerging areas for Saddlebreds. Prices in my province are generally 5,000-25,000 for a 5 to 8 year old riding trained horse. That is in the current market.

There is a market for the Saddlebred. From family owned companion to investor at the top of the game. There is an untapped market in the upper wealthy. We must promote to them as do select travel resorts, car manufactures, jewelry stores and clothing designers.

The market is not to blame. It is our inability to reach that market that can be improved upon.

Leo


WoW, so many excellent points and all of them right on the money (no pun intended ;) ). You hit each nail right on the head. :thumbup1: The "$50,000 to $100,000" Question is -- how long will this message continue to fall on deaf ears . . . :001_rolleyes:

[ihfarm]

We traded a common sort of bald faced ASB filly we acquired inutero to a nice public trail riding stable nearby. That lady rode her for a year on trails, and sold her for $5000 as a grade horse to a family with kids. The mare has a nice life. Had we taken her to TSE, we would have gotten about $650 and she would have been pounding the pavement. Yes, well conformed, sound, sane horses have a market if you set your sights at it.

In the last year I have had better luck with trading than actually selling for the dollar amount. I also felt that I got more of the horses value out of the trade than if they had paid me outright in current economic client. Plus, I was able to check out that they went to a good home.

[GottaDrive]

Canadians are grand supporters of equestrian sports. They have a 4 in hand arena driving competition at the Winter Faire that fills the auditorium with butts in every seat. I'm talking about a big sports arena in Toronto. Doesn't much matter about breed or whatever as long as they go fast and around/through obstacles ... yea hoo! Arena driving takes work and time. Training horses, learning to drive them, working with your navigator/back steppers. Practice, practice, and practice. Fastest time including time faults wins! They know how to have fun! And, you can't buy a win. Somehow we've forgot how to have fun the USA.

[ihfarm]

The key to increasing the market for your "middle market" is hooking new people with the lower market. As in $5,000 horses. We are not talking about people who are out buying their first house. We are talking about a first horse. Everyone I know who was not born into the show horse world started with a few horses to ride around the farm. These people went on to buy farms, hire trainers (live-in ones, not the public barn scenario), and breed large numbers of horses. They have been value added members of our industry. You really really limit yourself when you target your growth to an audience who can afford the luxury of a horse who's purchase price is somewhere in the range between their car and their first house.

Secondly, most people who start out riding around the farm are not capable of, nor interested in maintaining a "show horse". That's when we get into all that blather about the secondary sport horse market. But, I'm not even going to bother turning down that path.

I agree with you on limiting your market. I also agree the more you expand the market or attract new people to the breed, the better off the breed will be.

In my area, people like to be more do it yourself (parent/child) including horses and showing. They tend to spend $500 to $3000 on their first horse regardless of the breed. They take lessons and usually board or care for their own horse. It is becoming very popular to haul your horse to lesson place and take a lesson (1 to 3 times a week). The lesson itself is social gathering. They will often pay a show coaching and/or grooming fee (for assistance on adding the actual grooming touch ups). If they hire a trainer, it is for a tune in spring for the horse (30 to 90 days), start the colt for them, or ask you to teach them how to maintain/train their own horse. It is a trend I am seeing locally.

[silvia]

Didn't Harry Calahan go onto the market for $300,000 or so? Doesn't seem so 'waste product' to me!

[vlayne]

Didn't Harry Calahan go onto the market for $300,000 or so? Doesn't seem so 'waste product' to me!

That was the price I saw advertised. Of course there is no way to know what he sold for unless Linda feels like sharing that publicly.

[ASB Stars]

Look, I turned down a blank check on Borealis, several years ago. It doesn't matter to this kind of mindset. It is only ONE.

The reality is that if the breeders are not taking a beating selling horses whose only flaw is that their neckset will not suit the current show ring paradigm, they can afford to keep rolling the dice on getting that WC. This isn't confusing.

What is challenging is getting closed minds to accept this. I cannot tell you how proud I am to be a member of this Trot community- where the open minded will take a public stand. Bless each of you!

Ask yourself this- as the OP who posed these questions happens to have been the owner of ONE exceptional mare. How many mares can you think of, who have that kind of record, have existed in the breed? I thought of a few, today, but, in the total history of the breed, there have not been but a handful.

That would tend to alter your reality.

[kiminky]

And it isn't just marketing Product B, how about marketing the "waste product".
Remember when we used to get shavings for free to bed the stalls with... you know, "just come and pick it up, and we're happy to get rid of it"?
Now, we have to buy it bagged or pelleted, or beg/borrow/steel what won't fit in the truck when it is shipped to the stove pellet people. Absolute BRILLIANCE! Saw mills are making as much, if not more on the waste product than they are on the lumber.
Now, how many of them are saying... "No, I refuse to look into finding a buyer for my pine shavings because The Only Thing That Interests Me, is these beautiful Doug Fir beams"

WT>>>youknow? :confused1:

SmartAlex,
This is the point that is so difficult for some people to understand. I dont understand why :blink: . I have a 4 yr. old mare in my barn right now, that is "waste product". That was very hard for me to write because she is lovely. She is gorgeous, kind, game, talented with her legs, very trainable, loads of quality, no faults, no bad habits....I could go on and on. She's that nice. She doesnt have the freaky, upright neck that would make her a star in the traditional show ring. Her neck is beautiful, just not freaky. Thank God her breeders did not choose to send her to a life on the road. They want what's best for her. She is going to make someone a wonderful hunt seat pleasure horse, dressage horse, whatever direction she is pointed, she will shine. And whoever buys her will have a fun and pleasant journey as she develops. I have known so many through the years like her. It's a very sore subject for me. I have a horse that has all of the qualities to be a star in the show ring, but he's mine and I choose to enjoy riding him western and doing dressage on him. That is after I work 12 customer horses (traditional show horses and prospects). I dont understand the prejudice between disciplines. I just dont get it. I will stop now, because I can get on a roll and cant say what needs to be said as well as the rest of you. Just count me as one trainer (and former breeder) who appreciates every thing that the ASB can excel at.

[Renae]

What I get out of what Dr. Fredericks is saying is-

The Saddlebred is best at the saddle seat show classes. Better than any other horse in the world (How many other breeds emulate the Saddlebred look in their classes?). This venue is what makes this breed special. The sport horse venue may offer a valid seconadry market, but the Saddlebred is not the king of that market and the buyers in that market are biased and fickle. If they are going to buy a Saddlebred for a sport horse event they are only usually doing so because they can't afford a purpose bred horse, if not a Saddlebred they probably would go for an off the track Thoroughbred or Standardbred. If the Saddlebred is going to thrive the venue that it performs best in also needs to thrive and every effort should be made to promote saddle seat riding at every level. You enjoy saddle seat riding and you want to do it on the best horse for it you buy a Saddlebred. The person buying a Saddlebred to show in saddle seat classes at 4-H shows will probably pay just as much as the person buying a Saddlebred for training level dressage. But when that 4-H shower loves saddle seat and wants to move on in the sport they will probably buy a better Saddlebred. The dressage person, well if they want to move on in their sport they may have been enticed enough by "brand loyalty" to buy another Saddlebred or they may choose to buy the common model, the Warmblood. Saddle seat riding needs to be kept accessible to all levels, good instruction needs to be available to all interested individuals, I can tell you from personal experience that the general public enjoys watching saddle seat riding. Promotion of saddle seat riding will go hand in hand with promotion of the Saddlebred. Fail to promote the primary purpose of the breed and spend more effort promoting its "secondary" purposes and you will lose your most loyal customers and won't create any new customers that are most interested in the breed's best and highest use.

[kross]

I think what upsets me about this whole topic is the fact that the industry is being considered in such a state by the very people who put it into such a state. (not you Dr. Fredericks)

At what point in the ASB history did the only determination of an ASB's value become if it could perform at the KSF? (don't get me wrong that is what I am breeding for but if a colt of mine isn't going that direction it doesn't make it valueless to me) At what point in the ASB history did the being a trail horse, a cow horse, a h/j, endurance, dressage or any other use a person could have for this magnificent animal become meaningless?

While breeders of yore and even today were/are playing the number games and sending countless horses that would have excelled in those disciplines on the trucks they were killing the very things that would have kept the breed viable today. The first time horse owner isn't going to spend 50-100K on a horse, but they certainly would have aspired to it. The 4-H rider isn't going to spend that amount on a horse but if the SS discipline had been kept alive and well and family friendly they would have aspired to it. The H/J/Dressage person sneers at the concept of our breed in those disciplines today because they were well trained to believe our horse couldn't do it, who/what trained them to think that way?

As far as I see it the top forgot to feed what they feed off and the breed is paying the price in one way or another for such folly.

I will continue to breed because I love it and I think all of us here know that if we wanted to make a small fortune in the horse business we needed to start w/a big one.

[attafox]

The primary purpose of the breed is to be a saddle horse. Since when does that mean "saddle seat?"

[kiminky]

My biggest concern here is that our industry does not offer enough venues for the ASB. The Arabian, Morgan, Walking, Racking, Quarter horse, etc. all offer a division for every horse of their breed and every level of rider. They all have embraced a "sport horse" division within their regular divisions. Heck, the Walking horse people have even come up with dressage tests designed for the gaits of their horse. The Walking horse will never have a place in the "real" dressage ring, but they have created their own market. I guess what gets to me the most is that we dont promote this "waste product" even within our own industry.

[maytime]

Part of the problem is - if I want a "Louisville" horse, it (with the exception of 2 western classes), it HAS to be saddle seat.
We are the only breed I know that basically offers only ONE discipline for the breed at its national showcase.
We are caught in the Kentucky State Fair mode still......landlocked into those dates and had to wait to even get two western classes added. And now two juvenile park classes added. We can't afford to wait for another discipline to be thrown a few token classes at Louisville every few years...other breeds are eclipsing us in that regard.
We do it to ourselves. IMO we have NOT ONE venue to properly showcase the best of EVERYTHING our breed has to offer.
I think we will continue to be elitist and "one trick ponies" to the outside world as long as we only show them ONE aspect of our breed at our national showcase.
I know KSF has the World Champion trademark. Is that what keeps us at Louisville? Our WC show should show EVERY discipline our breed can excel at. Yes, if we need to find a different venue with multiple rings simultaneously CELEBRATING our breed's strengths over a 10 day period, maybe we should do that - or quit griping.
Definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The Morgans, TWH, AQHA, etc. have the right idea IMO.....a national/world show where a breed enthusiast can find a division to enter in which his/her horse excels.

An analogy was made in the Saddlebred mag comparing the Louisville horses percentage (10%) to would-be singing stars that hit the bigtime. We seem to think only the Louisville quality saddleseat horses have value, and others should be pointed to other disciplines. IMO that's like telling a kid who will not be a singing superstar "maybe you'll be good at sports, or small engine repair" when in reality that kid might be perfectly happy with an inexpensive karaoke machine, singing in the church choir, etc. We are not providing consistently - in all parts of the country - the venues for the less than stellar saddleseat horses. A lot of the smaller one day shows in the Southeast seem to be lightly attended. I hope we don't decide just to show to ourselves in coliseums and arenas. That would not be good.
JMO

Tim

[ASB Stars]

Part of the problem is - if I want a "Louisville" horse, it (with the exception of 2 western classes), it HAS to be saddle seat.
We are the only breed I know that basically offers only ONE discipline for the breed at its national showcase.
We are caught in the Kentucky State Fair mode still......landlocked into those dates and had to wait to even get two western classes added. And now two juvenile park classes added. We can't afford to wait for another discipline to be thrown a few token classes at Louisville every few years...other breeds are eclipsing us in that regard.
We do it to ourselves. IMO we have NOT ONE venue to properly showcase the best of EVERYTHING our breed has to offer.
I think we will continue to be elitist and "one trick ponies" to the outside world as long as we only show them ONE aspect of our breed at our national showcase.
I know KSF has the World Champion trademark. Is that what keeps us at Louisville? Our WC show should show EVERY discipline our breed can excel at. Yes, if we need to find a different venue with multiple rings simultaneously CELEBRATING our breed's strengths over a 10 day period, maybe we should do that - or quit griping.
Definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The Morgans, TWH, AQHA, etc. have the right idea IMO.....a national/world show where a breed enthusiast can find a division to enter in which his/her horse excels.

An analogy was made in the Saddlebred mag comparing the Louisville horses percentage (10%) to would-be singing stars that hit the bigtime. We seem to think only the Louisville quality saddleseat horses have value, and others should be pointed to other disciplines. IMO that's like telling a kid who will not be a singing superstar "maybe you'll be good at sports, or small engine repair" when in reality that kid might be perfectly happy with an inexpensive karaoke machine, singing in the church choir, etc. We are not providing consistently - in all parts of the country - the venues for the less than stellar saddleseat horses. A lot of the smaller one day shows in the Southeast seem to be lightly attended. I hope we don't decide just to show to ourselves in coliseums and arenas. That would not be good.
JMO

Tim

There is some really brilliant stuff in here, Tim. Thanks for this!:yes:

[silvia]

A Saddlebred competing in Grand Prix dressage or World Cup showjumping won't have it recorded in its show history wins nor will it be counted towards something like broodmare hall of fame for the dam.

[GottaDrive]

Kim is correct with her observations. I've been working in my area to add carriage classes to ASB shows. It is very difficult; and, many of the horse shows want fewer rather than more classes. Fortunately for our breed, outside of the upper midwest horse shows appear to be adding new classes and divsions.

[Samigator]

This is a very interesting thread- keep it going.

I don't have much to add other than to agree with some of the following points:

1. The middle market (in my mind) is not 50-100K. I think it is more accurately in the $15-60K range. It depends on who you target for your market- if you are targeting the top 1% wealthiest people, then maybe those initial figures are accurate, but how can you expect the breed to grow if you limit yourself by only allowing the wealthiest 1% of people to participate? First horses, yeah, $5,000 or less. Most people I know wouldn't pay more than $10K for most any horse. So we are killing the industry by commanding such ridiculous prices for some of these "mid-level" horses who are supposed to not even be capable of competing at Louisville. Going to a weekend B-rated show and paying $1K just to be able to ride in a few classes is totally unreasonable to most of the population. Once again, costs are limiting the breed to the wealthiest few percent of people whow can afford to do this. I know lots of people (myself included) that would LOVE to get out there and compete our Saddlebreds every weekend but the cost is a huge deterrant.

2. Breeders- I realize breeders make no money on selling young unbroke prospects, but you need to take that gamble in breeding to get the few who are exceptional quality that you can bring more $ for. Or I agree, find a suitable avenue for the "waste product"

3. I totally agree with the lack of variety of disciplines that Saddlebreds have, especially at L'ville. I can't believe that they don't even have a hunter class! There is something REALLY wrong with that lack of variety of disciplines. Not to mention even I would probably get bored watching saddle seat over and over and over again. C'mon, you say they're so talented and versatile, let's see something ELSE they can do!

4. Other breeds- Totally agree that other breeds have made it easier to participate, and offer more avenues than their one show class. Plus it seems as though ASB SS is the only discipline that requires such extreme characteristics as neck set and motion at EVERY level- I can hardly tell the difference between some CP horses and some 3G horses! Okay, something is wrong with that? I thought that's why we had CP is so that lower quality horses could compete? Maybe we need to add in new classes for horses who don't meet that perfect ASB prototype and find a new way to let them compete- there are lots out there! Ugh, don't even get me started on that. . . I brought my hubby's trail TWH to a show a couple years ago, it was his first show ever, he was plain shod, nothing special, and we got 2nd place out of 10 horses- that just CAN'T happen in ASB's. I'm not saying that TWH's are of less quality overall, but I think that what we expect in the show ring for ASB's makes it nearly impossible for anyone who doesn't have that $100K horse in training year round with a pro to compete.

[ASB Stars]

I truly understand that L'ville is packed with classes, and adding any is a real challenge.

What I do not understand is why they cannot combine some of the equitation classes- from a management perspective. I realize the pressure that is brought to bear by several big name equitation "franchises", to keep all of these classes in, but, at some point, perhaps they powers will be will see the need to show case all of the different things that an American Saddlebred can do- and at the World Championship level:thumbup: !

[rhettdgn]

Maytime-You make some very excellent points. Why is it the world championship offers no diversity?

Is it due to the fact that it is used as a showcase for the "Peacock" and that is all that is wished to be exhibited and judged?

Some very compelling aspects that have me thinking about the "big picture".

I'll tell ya, I'm all for the Peacock whether on the green shavings or at our local shows being cared for and trained by the amatuer/owner or Mom/child team. I believe there is a good spot for every horse. I do not wish for anyone to get the impression that I am against the saddleseat discipline at any level. Look or reflect on the range of just that discipline....a 400,000.00 top caliber performance horse right down to the "please give him a good home"...freebe. They all have a place. That freebe can make a person's (adult or youngster) dreams and asperations come to fruition, just as much as the investor that wishes to get the youngster that will be crowned at Louisville one day.

The horse itself needs to be an individual and be evaluated and directed toward what they are uniguely talented and show potential for.

In todays breeding barns, an open mind will bring the "ging" in the door!! This isn't rocket science and I just don't not understand the "breeder" or "trainer" that would not have the desire to maximize the rewards for the work that they do and the animal's that they get paid for to get that full potential from. Or is it just as easy to throw in the towel on the "lesser" of the performers and send them to auction so after two years of stud fees, vet care, foaling, raising the foal for two years, start training.......and get a return of what.....1,500.00 or less!!! Well, that's not very lucrative. Then you find out that the youngster you bred and raised, pulls a buggy or works fields for a while and ends up at NH and maybe...just maybe.....gets saved by a rescue. Now that brings a great deal of positive "mojo" and prestige to your particular breeding facility!!!! What if prospects were evaluated and became the next regional or national champion......doing sport or eventing or even dressage!!!! A champion is still a champion!!! Couldn't one assume that the peers getting beaten by this individual will ask "Where did you find that horse?" Now, they come a calling YOUR breeding facility and inquire about prospects YOU have produced that will beat that colt you had bred 6 years prior.............Now doesn't that make good business and marketing sense? On top of the fact that the horse is doing EXACTLY what he/she is uniquely built to do!!!!

It goes back to what V-Layne commented on about the reaction to her comment about youngsters being more suited in a discipline other than the Saddle Seat, Park/3-G or even 5-G categories and they give her that..."I can't believe you said that.....insulted look!" Well, hello!!! If the professional can't see how obvious that is.......how can they be a highly qualified "professional"?

Are the trainers just not able to distinguish the difference or are they just too narrow minded to look at things on a larger spectrum? I don't mean this to be judgemental, not my motive........I am wondering if they just do not have a broader knowledge in order to make this sort of judgement.

Or maybe...ego? That may also be a potential issue as to the "tunnel trap" that seems to be quite normal. Let's say...we have a very large breeding operation. They produce very well bred babies every year with the breeding manager, and the ladder of trainers. Would this facility have a person that is from.....let's say the dressage world.....come to their farm and offer their opinion as to which foals look to be excellent prospects for their specific discipline? Or someone that does other disciplines. Boy, it just may be very interesting to be that fly sitting on the fence watching and listening to that conversation!!!!

In a perfect world.......that would be amazing to actually happen though now wouldn't it?


Samigator-You actually had a great deal to add. Excellent points! Is that you and your boy in your avatar? Your totally gorgeous!!!!! So isn;t your boy!!!!

[kross]

A Saddlebred competing in Grand Prix dressage or World Cup showjumping won't have it recorded in its show history wins nor will it be counted towards something like broodmare hall of fame for the dam.

A friend of mine had a mare that everyone of her foals won the country pleasure CH at KSF (I believe there were 5) and she doesn't count as anything either.

Maytime I don't know how to explain this because it is something I just understand when looking at a horse...while there are horses that could be less than stellar SS horses for many of them putting them that direction is flat out torture for them, they are not built to be in that frame. I for one would rather immediately aim a colt I believed wasn't a SS horse into a discipline I believe it could be a star in.

But for me my point wasn't about aiming horses at any discipline, its about finding a purpose for each and everyone of these babies other than a European dinner plate. By finding these purposes we strengthen the entire industry by strengthening the base. We can all aspire to be at the top (whatever our version of the top is) but we can never forget to tend the roots.

[kiminky]

Kross and Maytime , see I told you you could express it way better than I can. Thanks, you said exactly what I meant :laugh: .

[SmartAlex]

This isn't rocket science and I just don't not understand the "breeder" or "trainer" that would not have the desire to maximize the rewards for the work that they do and the animal's that they get paid for to get that full potential from. Or is it just as easy to throw in the towel on the "lesser" of the performers and send them to auction so after two years of stud fees, vet care, foaling, raising the foal for two years, start training.......and get a return of what.....1,500.00 or less!!! Well, that's not very lucrative. Then you find out that the youngster you bred and raised, pulls a buggy or works fields for a while and ends up at NH and maybe...just maybe.....gets saved by a rescue. Now that brings a great deal of positive "mojo" and prestige to your particular breeding facility!!!! What if prospects were evaluated and became the next regional or national champion......doing sport or eventing or even dressage!!!! A champion is still a champion!!! Couldn't one assume that the peers getting beaten by this individual will ask "Where did you find that horse?" Now, they come a calling YOUR breeding facility and inquire about prospects YOU have produced that will beat that colt you had bred 6 years prior.............Now doesn't that make good business and marketing sense?


Yes yes yes.

Are the trainers just not able to distinguish the difference or are they just too narrow minded to look at things on a larger spectrum? I don't mean this to be judgemental, not my motive........I am wondering if they just do not have a broader knowledge in order to make this sort of judgement.

I'm going to get my neck in the noose here :hang: and make a broad generalization: The Saddleseat trainers I've worked with or known well, whether they were working ASB, Morgan or Arab, are totally in love with the extreme Saddleseat image. They are not "into" the horses who won't make that cut. It isn't the knowledge, it's the interest. I'm not criticizing this, because their passion and expertise has made them successful. I don't think the key is to get the winning L-ville trainers to broaden their vision, as much as it is to support the trainers making a living in the grass roots shows where they may have horses in all the divisions. You know, like kiminky. Of course, this means we have to support the people paying their bills, which are the $5-10,000 people who want to go to the all breed shows, and may *gasp* keep their horses at home in the off season and ride them around the farm.

[vlayne]

If I were a big breeder, I'd have a "colt day" every year, late in the fall of the crop's yearling year (so they'd be coming two-year olds), and I'd also include any older colts that had been left out to grow for another year or two.

I'd invite my SS trainer, my Dressage trainer, and any other trainer (CDE? reining? trail? endurance? jumper? come one come all!) and have them watch each long yearling to evaluate them as prospects for their specific discipline. There would certainly be overlap, some colts are bound to be appropriate for more than one discipline - and I would have the final say as to which trainer to send them to. Once each yearling had a "future" that's the trainer they'd go to when they were old enough.

After a few months of work, we'd reevaluate, especially those that were on the fence. Are they in the right hands? Is this work they are enjoying so far? Do they need to be pointed in a different direction? Tails would not be cut unless the colt showed serious promise as a KSF contender (and not just as a junior horse). Otherwise, if they needed to be "up" they would be hand stretched and bustled/set, without surgery. This would allow the horse to easily move into a different life if needed.

I think this type of "business plan" would maximize my return on my investments, and would hold a much brighter future for each foal I produced. Even though I have no passion for reining, or dressage, or jumping... I would have a passion for my HORSES. And seeing them doing something they were born to do (not BRED to do - BORN to do) would have to satisfy my passions as a breeder. Otherwise, I should not be breeding horses.

[kross]

Yes yes yes.



I'm going to get my neck in the noose here :hang: and make a broad generalization: The Saddleseat trainers I've worked with or known well, whether they were working ASB, Morgan or Arab, are totally in love with the extreme Saddleseat image. They are not "into" the horses who won't make that cut. It isn't the knowledge, it's the interest. I'm not criticizing this, because their passion and expertise has made them successful. I don't think the key is to get the winning L-ville trainers to broaden their vision, as much as it is to support the trainers making a living in the grass roots shows where they may have horses in all the divisions. You know, like kiminky. Of course, this means we have to support the people paying their bills, which are the $5-10,000 people who want to go to the all breed shows, and may *gasp* keep their horses at home in the off season and ride them around the farm.

Smart Alex I don't think you put yourself in a noose at all. The truth of the matter is one can not be excellent at everything. To be good at any of the disciplines requires dedication and focus on that discipline. But that doesn't mean you can not recognize the value of or have respect for the other disciplines. As a breeder knowing what the other disciplines are looking for in a horse means a market outside of what we are considering the market. I understand not because I participate in them what the other disciplines are looking for so when I have a horse show up in my breeding program that doesn't fit as a SS horse I'm going to go out of the ASB world and market my horse to those disciplines. I personally would rather see our breed succeeding in the "real world" of those disciplines than the bastardized versions that the other breeds have made for theirs.

[SaddlebredMom]

The most expensive stud fees are still only four figures. Where are these prices coming from?

I haven't seen anyone chime in on this yet, and I think it's a very viable question with tremendous impact. Our breeders are saying they can't keep their heads above water because of the imbalance between breeding costs and diminishing sales. So where is that break even point and what are the costs that push it over the edge and into the red? Is it the basic care and feeding? Or is it the breaking, finishing, and training? Or is it something else? What is it that tips the scales to make breeding non-economically viable??

[SmartAlex]

OK here's the numbers on the shoe string budget end:
Stud fee was $750. First year the mare reabsorbed. Try again year two with AI, Regumate and Caslicks. When the foal hit the ground, we had about $4500 in the whole process. Plus at least $2000 for feeding and maintaining the mare for two years. That's $6500 at foaling. Let's say we forget the first year costs and upkeep, and knock that down to one successful season at $5000.

So, we have a $5000 suckling. For a range, let's say I paid a $2000 stud fee instead, so I have $6250 suckling. There's your minimum range. $5000-$6250 the minute he hits the ground. And that is with everything going smoothly. The only way we could have gotten any cheaper is to pasture breed.

Weanling $5500-6750
Yearling $6000-7000
2 yr old not backed $7000-8000
Send it to a L-ville trainer for 6 months at $650-$800 a month plus vet and shoeing 2 yr old $11,500-13,400.

And all you know at this point is that the horse is rideable and has the talent to make a show horse. Turn him out for a year to grow, add another $1000. So, You bring your three year old back in, and send him to the L-ville trainer. The trainer cuts his tail $1,500. Puts a beginner shoe job on him $250. And charges you first months training up front Now, you have $14850-16,950 invested in your 3 yr old colt, and we haven't even figured in the gas and any boo-boos he may come up with.

The trainer works him for 3 months, adds a commission to the price. You better be talking a starting price $20,000 for a started three year old or you are losing money.
Of course, these are just my numbers. You know, the gal with the rescue mare and the $750 stud fee. Just imagine the overhead some operations could add to the bottom line with embryo transfers and actual purchase price of a mare with a show history.

[D_BaldStockings]

I haven't seen anyone chime in on this yet, and I think it's a very viable question with tremendous impact. Our breeders are saying they can't keep their heads above water because of the imbalance between breeding costs and diminishing sales. So where is that break even point and what are the costs that push it over the edge and into the red? Is it the basic care and feeding? Or is it the breaking, finishing, and training? Or is it something else? What is it that tips the scales to make breeding non-economically viable??



Every step of the process is an added expense and a possibility for failure.
If you are lucky enough to get as far as a nice foal on the ground you are looking at the best price point age-wise to sell it. Only if it is tip top SS quality is it worth growing it out past weaning. And only if it continues the same is it worth training for a hopefully very much higher price -and to the small but dedicated market of wealthy fanatics who will get your production to L'ville where the recognition is.
People will not risk leather on a colt that can't raise up.

The rest would be considered chaff, not grain.
If a horse goes on the truck, it is as if it never existed, write off the loss and move on.
If it goes to Tattersalls, NH and Rescue, that may or may not be embarassing depending on your circle's position regarding the chaff; painfullly annoying, at best.
Part of the mindset is getting a problem solved quickly and with minimal stress, time and financial input = a good business decision. It overlooks the bad business decision of highest and best use via monetary return when that is outside the discipline striven for in the breeding program.
People are people, remember. If you ask a surgeon, a nutritionist, a massage therapist, or an psychiatrist FIRST how to solve problem X, you will get 4 different and probably good answers that address aspects they are expert at. It will not occur to them to recommend or explore the other avenues and their interest vanishes if the problem isn't within their ability to solve.

The huge pot of gold foals are what are remembered, and what the breeders reputation will depend on. If a breeder is lucky, he will breed 3-6 foals and get one. If he is less able, there may be 30 foals that just miss the mark in one way or another.

[SmartAlex]

So let's expound on Mary's post using my numbers. Say the breeder breeds 6 foals, gets them all started, and then at 3 yrs old culls five of them.

20,000 x 6= 120000 cost. Five of them go on the truck for $500 a piece. Now you have to get $117500 out of the one left to break even. That may be a bit extreme. You might not put the 6 months in them as 2 yr olds, or bring them back in at 3. And you wouldn't have to add in sales commission.

So, you are talking about six that you got to the point of backing when you culled the five that wouldn't make it. Now we only have to get $65000 out of the good one to cover costs.

Oh, and one more thing... we still didn't pay anything for the mare, or hire any help to clean stalls etc.
I have no misgivings about what it costs to create these L-ville horses. Like Stars says below... we need to maximise the revenue back from the "non-L-ville horses".

[ASB Stars]

Which is why we need to maximize the breeders benefit on every single foal that they raise. The only way to do this is to diversify our marketing, such that our horses are seen as viable option by riders in other disciplines, as well as SS.

Regarding purpose-bred stock- these horses are bred to be ridable, trainable, beautiful and great thinking athletes. What other possible purpose is there?

[sdlbredfan]

Kross, you said it so well, in fact I think this is the best of many great comments on this thread! (referring to the "But for me my point wasn't about aiming horses at any discipline, its about finding a purpose for each and everyone of these babies other than a European dinner plate. By finding these purposes we strengthen the entire industry by strengthening the base. We can all aspire to be at the top (whatever our version of the top is) but we can never forget to tend the roots.")
Amen! Those of us who 'get it' know you are preaching to the choir but I hope some of those who do not yet 'get it' soon will.
Jeanie

[sdlbredfan]

Wow, Vlayne's idea of a colt day is fabulous!

[Samigator]

Wow, Vlayne's idea of a colt day is fabulous!

absolutely!

[D_BaldStockings]

When did it all start and how did we get here?

It is all so simple…
1. Breeders after the Civil War desperately needed recreation, excitement, restoration of their pride and competition –Sporting events are war without it’s gore. Horse shows became the competitive venue of choice for non-racers; horses already were proven tough, longlived, fertile, good tempered, all the other useful and livestock attribute values. Now they went for splendor, awe inspiring, something that would make the educated, horse owning audiences’ jaws drop and eyes pop!
2. A registry was formed to track successful pedigrees and encourage a ‘unity of direction’ for breeders that split the breed off from ‘can’t trot’ types and also from ‘non-gaited’ types. At this time multi breed shows had lots of carriage classes and divisions, lots of under saddle classes including high school, and no jumper or hunter classes, or trail –you jumped and went over obstacles when you went foxhunting, or in your daily work, period.
3. Great rivalry developed between the Missouri and Kentucky breeders as to who had the better horses. St Louis and the Kentucky State Fair being the biggest in the nation for Saddle seat horses. Some time around the advent of Bourbon King, the KSF was named World’s Championship Horse Show and winner points from this show began to be tabulated to rank stallions. The Sire Rating system grew out of this.
4. Before WWI Anglomania swept the country and everything English was better than US made. From food to fashion to behavior to dog and horse breeding to where to marry your daughter – an English title, of course- values shifted seismically in the US. Suddenly low striding TB types became the preferred park mount. Hunting became a show event and led to the specialization of Jumping. The Olympic games were restarted and Dressage was first introduced to the US (with little interest at the time). Saddle seat was slowly leaving the ‘approved’ mainstream without realizing that the current had shifted ever so slightly.
5. Following WWI the US turned it’s back on Europe and the rest of the world. Huge changes in societal values led to one of the first youth cultures and sports hero worshipping eras during the 1920’s and women got the vote. After the crash, the depressed 30’s gave fantasy and the movie industry great opportunity to influence on a massive scale and many spectator sports were beginning to be less important than actors and performers. Media began to realize it’s power to slant events was marketable. Reshuffling the financial deck put many Saddlebreds on career paths in the movies, on ranches, in hunters and jumpers and dressage, and workmanlike jobs. They proved their versatility even as the registry and show community turned their backs on the common Saddlebred.
6. The 50’s saw a resurgence of interest in the recreation of riding and Saddle seat flourished once again, yet not really at the level of expansion of other disciplines like western riding (and QH), and the opening of the Olympics to non-military teams split the equestrian community into ‘recognized’ Olympic events and the second tier which eventually became viewed as lesser, obsolete, quaint, antique .. one reaction to this was the formation of the UPHA supporting the Saddle seat style. The Saddlebred Association and UPHA have been strongly entwined ever since and there is great concern that ‘non SS disciplines’ are at odds with the core value of the early registry and promotion of the SS style horse. Points for breeding/registry recognition are only given for recognized Saddlebred division wins heavily weighted to the biggest shows in the SS division.
7. The 50’s also saw a determination in Europe to restore their horse breeding program within the Olympic disciplines to the world’s finest- Much like the US after the Civil War, pride was at stake. No one can deny their young rider and young horse development programs have worked and they are now consistently producing the winners they need, perhaps even bending the disciplines involved to their standards -, but that’s another story.

Literature doesn’t lie; it represents the public temper more than you might think. Saddlebreds are written of favorably in general horse books by knowledgeable authorities up until almost 1915. Then they just disappear. Authorities of the 50’s onward are dismissive (they aren’t a breed, just one of many mongrel gaited types incorrectly trained and popular in the southern US), have no knowledge of the breed outside the SS venue ( a Saddlebred just missed going to the Olympics in the late 30’s –early 40’s I believe) (There are NO movies about SS or Saddlebred horses, though they have acted in most of the films made in the 30’s through 60’s and beyond) Or completely in denial (Our finest natural jumper champion was a fluke, everyone would like to have one like her yet no clue could be found in her breeding –by a Saddlebred out of a nondescript mare) and in the same book (Here is an example of a Saddleseat/Saddlebred - this is not a type suitable for our needs and would not do well in our type of riding –field hunting, show hunter, show jumper, child’s riding school mount).

We have done it to ourselves, we have let others do it to us. But the past is past. Forget blame.

What of the future?
Saddleseat can be restored –not easily.
Saddlebreds can shine in other disciplines –not easily
Saddlebreds can be a force in the horse world in their own inimitable way with a positive image and reputation.
The Association can grow both members and registrations with a supervaluable product at the top of MANY disciplines and the ‘chaff’ called schoolmasters bringing along the next generation and encouraging the past generation to enjoy and participate in the equestrian life.
And breeders will be the truest and most worthy beneficiaries of that marketing stance, because far more of their product will sell profitably and they have no reason to reset their goal of the top SS mount, only expand their ability to say “that’s a nice horse, too” with a smile.

[Renae]

I don't know if those drawing comparisions to the Arabian have really been involved with that breed. Arabians registrations are still greatly declining every year, despite adding every class under the sun to their shows. Their big prize money program is stretched very thin, and prior to a recent restructering was almost broke. The average Arabian horse is a late teenager, leftover from the last echos of the boom of the '80s. Class A and Regional Arabian horse shows are marathon events that begin at 8 am, run 2 or 3 rings all day, see a lot of the same horse/rider combos showing back in every class they can until they have enough point to qualify for the nationals for the year and then they don't show at all anymore in that qualification period except for nationals, to the point where people don't show back in championships at Arab class A shows if they have all their points they pack up and go home. So adding all of these divisions to the breed show has caused greater expense for the shows and put more stress on the prize money program without garnering any turn around in the number of horses being registered, and to boot "Arabian dressage horses", "Arabian working hunters", "Arabian reining horses" are very, very seldom horses that can compete with their peers in an actual open event show. Plus in the Arabian world I think the feeling of those who do own and breed and show at the national level in the traditional breed show classes are a minority who are supporting the whole rest of the registry is even greater than it is with Saddlebreds.

[GottaDrive]

I liked a phrase someone used earlier in this thread "purpose bred". Whether we like it or not, the horse industry regardless of breed has evolved to be a tapestry of purpose bred animals, as skills advance beyond training or preliminary levels of any of the disciplines. So what does this gobbledygook mean.

1. There is a very huge market for training and preliinary level horses that can be addressed by ASBs as well as any breed. Prices are markedly better than TSE/Tattersalls.

2. Our ASBs are saddleseat specialists but some can also be world class specialists in other discplines too.

3. I think they make outstannding carrriage horses for ligher turnouts. I'm especially fond of them put to a gig or ligher weight phaeton. (I want a pair but finding a competitive pair is difficult because you want to match size, way of going, color, and at least some markings. Taller order than you think.)

4. They excel at CDE and eventing if training starts early.

5. They make outstanding dressage mounts.

6. They make great parade horses.

7. And, many many make outstanding recreational mounts.

I don't mean every horse works in every situation. Lets say 10% are oustanding in the saddleseat riding style. Another 10% to 20% make great carriage horses. Maybe they don't like being ridden or will not wear an overcheck for harness classes. (Many horses will happily wear a side check but not an overcheck.) The scenario continues until maybe 70% or 80% of the horses are useful enough for someone to feed and take care of them. To me a good carriage or CDE horse is equal in every respect to a show ring performer.

[SaddlebredMom]

You better be talking a starting price $20,000 for a started three year old or you are losing money.


Thanks Brita. That helps explain where the "middle market" figures in the OP come from.

[Samigator]

I was thinking about this today. . . this is my constant debate with pumping money into the Saddlebred industry. Let's say I have a nice, quality ASB- a well turned out AOT keep-at-home show horse who has everything to be competitive at local B shows and at least fit in at A shows (we're imagining here) but lacks that extreme head/neckset that is required to be successful at the larger shows. What is my motivation to show him at breed shows? To bring home a couple of pieces of ribbon on a rosette? We have nothing to gain. . . really. . . I can bring him to local shows for $3 a class, show out of my trailer, and have just as much fun for a small fraction of the cost- plus I can get some very nice high point awards from these. Why should I bring him to breed shows and support the ASB industry when I have nothing more to gain and lots more to lose? I just don't see what the motivation is other than to increase my credit card debt- how is the breed going to target and include people in my situation (and I can promise you there are many) who want to compete but just can't justify it with such alternatives? We have to water the roots to keep the tree growing, don't we? And it is probably people like me who will hopefully eventually try to move up the ladder and buy and compete that nicer, "mid-level" show horse- why make it so hard for us and turn us away?

[snowfool]

Sami - I've been following this thread and thought I would jump in here and answer your question. The reason ASHA state chapters were first put into place in individual states was to promote the Saddlebred on a local level. They were to institute a series of shows and a points award program to help and aid people who might not want or have the interest to show on a national level. Although many local shows have evolved from one day shows to multi-day shows, the theory was that these one day shows would foster a competitive environment locally and give folks like you and I a reason to compete at breed shows. Not all states have chapters but those that do, have established by-laws that they must abide by in reference to promoting the Saddlebred and Saddlebred exhibitors within that particular state. I can't remember what state you're in, but using my state of Georgia as an example, we have a full circuit of one day long shows that consists of about 10 shows. Our awards program tabulates points for all Saddlebred shows within the state now, but originally it was aimed at strictly one day shows (which I think was a more healthy way of point counting but that's beside the point :D ).

Does the system work - in some states it works very well - Georgia has a very good show circuit for local competition. The Carolinas have a great series of shows as well, aimed at the same goal - to promote locally. But I know there there are states that do not have this and if you happen to live in one of those states, you might not be aware of the benefits of a state chapter.

At any rate, I agree that it is enjoyable to do open shows and participate in their awards program - I have done so in the past. But I have always tried to support our local breed shows, both monetarily and as an exhibitor because that is what I feel needs the most support. If you are in a state who's awards program is lacking and not giving you what you would like to see, get involved and try and get to know the folks behind the awards program - it's how you can make a difference to this breed.

[snowfool]

One more thing - if you are in one of those states that lacks an ASHA state chapter, there is no better time than now to work on getting a chapter established. It does take people willing to devote some time and effort, a good attorney to incorporate it, and an application with ASHA, but once it's in place, a chapter is a great tool to PROMOTE the Saddlebred horse locally.

[Samigator]

I'm in Minnesota and we have an active chapter here. We have about 7-8 A or B shows each year right here in MN. But, with the exception of one, all of them require that you have a stall, and are 3+ day shows. Just requiring you to have a stall tacks on $100 before you even get into the ring. . . then the classes and fees really add up from there. For me to go to an ASB show and show in 3-4 classes I'm looking at at least $300 for the show. I still am not understanding why I would want to do that when I can compete against Saddlebreds and earn the breed recognition on the all-breed circuit for $30/show.

If our state had more one-day shows or allowed me show out of my trailer, I'd support them much more, but for the most part, that $100 for the stall is a deal breaker for me.

[sdlbredfan]

Mary, thanks so much for that historical perspective, that is very useful and pertinent!
Jeanie

[mskyar]

Tails would not be cut unless the colt showed serious promise as a KSF contender (and not just as a junior horse)..

I want to preface this with the fact I am not in the ASB business and haven't been for about 10 years, but have paid attention to a lot of what is happening..

Why does everyhorse bred need to show serious promise as a KSF contender? There are other shows out there....yes KSF is the "ultimate" that everyone aspires to, but many will never 'make it there' and many people can't afford to go there, and there is no shame in that.....what has hurt the ASB's and their market, IMHO, is the lack of shows to go to nationwide.....there needs to be shows for the 1st time owners to show at and stand a chance to win, and then shows to graduate to and if they are good enough go to KSF and if not, stay at the other levels. In the "olden" days shows were of many breeds and divisions, (and they still had audiences).....I got hooked on ASB's while being a H/J girl.........IMHO the worst thing that has happened to the horse business is the segregation of the breeds...All H/J, western, ASB shows, etc........No one ends up appreciating what each breed is capable of doing, I mean a nice horse is a nice horse, no matter what his discipline, but most people never get to see that, only their small world...........And sadly I agree with Dr. Frederick that the middle market is 50k to 100k, heck my owner paid that much for horses in the early 80's, albiet that was considered upper market then, but that was almost 30 years ago......So sadly people don't think they have a viable horse unless it can command a price of 50k or higher and be KSF capable and we all know that is not true........

I also think we don't need to being doing embryo transfers, AI and should return to live cover, or AI at the location where the stud lives.....yes it increases the costs, but it also, for lack of a better explanation, keeps the value of the foal up there......I just don't know why you need more than one baby "out" of the same mare in the same year.....

[snowfool]

I'm in Minnesota and we have an active chapter here. We have about 7-8 A or B shows each year right here in MN. But, with the exception of one, all of them require that you have a stall, and are 3+ day shows. Just requiring you to have a stall tacks on $100 before you even get into the ring. . . then the classes and fees really add up from there. For me to go to an ASB show and show in 3-4 classes I'm looking at at least $300 for the show. I still am not understanding why I would want to do that when I can compete against Saddlebreds and earn the breed recognition on the all-breed circuit for $30/show.

If our state had more one-day shows or allowed me show out of my trailer, I'd support them much more, but for the most part, that $100 for the stall is a deal breaker for me.

Well in that case, you have just hit upon a major pet peeve of mine which is the slow disappearance of what used to be known as the Saturday night show. I wasn't thrilled when our board decided to tabulate points on all shows in the state, not just the one day shows, because it rewarded those that could afford the multi-day shows and slammed those who could only attend one day shows. Apparently in Minnesota's case, they don't have a good reason to have one day shows anymore and in my humble opinion, that is a gross negligence and ignorance of why Chapters were instituted in the first place. So Sami - you have my sympathy - all I can say is perhaps you can start a push for at least a few one day shows in your state - I feel for you. You are a textbook example of what can happen to folks who would prefer a one day show and don't have them to attend.

[snowfool]

[I]II also think we don't need to being doing embryo transfers, AI and should return to live cover, or AI at the location where the stud lives.....yes it increases the costs, but it also, for lack of a better explanation, keeps the value of the foal up there......I just don't know why you need more than one baby "out" of the same mare in the same year.....

I'm not totally sold on embryo transfer although it's invaluable if a mare cannot carry a foal to term. However, on the subject of AI, if live cover was insisted upon within our small circle, I think we would see more concentrations of certain bloodlines in certain areas of the country. I feel our bloodlines are becoming too minimalizing already, and would hate to see this encouraged. AI allows bloodlines to be infused anywhere including out of the country. It may work for the Thoroughbred lines because the Thoroughbred registry is so well established and healthy, but I see it only as a detriment for our small breed. Furthermore, take into consideration that when we were breeding mares, we did it on a very small scale - one to two a year. For small time breeders like us, it is not worth the expense to ship a mare across the country for breeding. AI allows us to utilize a stallion no matter where he is located and although AI is not inexpensive, it is still generally less than shipping fees can add up to for a lengthy haul, plus lengthy hauls aren't always healthy for a mare.

[Renae]

Well in that case, you have just hit upon a major pet peeve of mine which is the slow disappearance of what used to be known as the Saturday night show. I wasn't thrilled when our board decided to tabulate points on all shows in the state, not just the one day shows, because it rewarded those that could afford the multi-day shows and slammed those who could only attend one day shows. Apparently in Minnesota's case, they don't have a good reason to have one day shows anymore and in my humble opinion, that is a gross negligence and ignorance of why Chapters were instituted in the first place. So Sami - you have my sympathy - all I can say is perhaps you can start a push for at least a few one day shows in your state - I feel for you. You are a textbook example of what can happen to folks who would prefer a one day show and don't have them to attend.

Minnesota used to have several one day shows, they were not attended well enough to justify continuing to have all of them. I do think that MSHA should be doing a better job of reckognizing members who show in the WSCA circuit.

[vlayne]

I want to preface this with the fact I am not in the ASB business and haven't been for about 10 years, but have paid attention to a lot of what is happening..

Why does everyhorse bred need to show serious promise as a KSF contender? There are other shows out there....yes KSF is the "ultimate" that everyone aspires to, but many will never 'make it there' and many people can't afford to go there, and there is no shame in that.....what has hurt the ASB's and their market, IMHO, is the lack of shows to go to nationwide.....there needs to be shows for the 1st time owners to show at and stand a chance to win, and then shows to graduate to and if they are good enough go to KSF and if not, stay at the other levels. In the "olden" days shows were of many breeds and divisions, (and they still had audiences).....I got hooked on ASB's while being a H/J girl.........IMHO the worst thing that has happened to the horse business is the segregation of the breeds...All H/J, western, ASB shows, etc........No one ends up appreciating what each breed is capable of doing, I mean a nice horse is a nice horse, no matter what his discipline, but most people never get to see that, only their small world...........And sadly I agree with Dr. Frederick that the middle market is 50k to 100k, heck my owner paid that much for horses in the early 80's, albiet that was considered upper market then, but that was almost 30 years ago......So sadly people don't think they have a viable horse unless it can command a price of 50k or higher and be KSF capable and we all know that is not true........

I also think we don't need to being doing embryo transfers, AI and should return to live cover, or AI at the location where the stud lives.....yes it increases the costs, but it also, for lack of a better explanation, keeps the value of the foal up there......I just don't know why you need more than one baby "out" of the same mare in the same year.....

Did you read my whole post?

I would not cut tails on ANY horse who wouldn't be an upper echelon SS horse. That means, all the others, Saddle Seat or not, would have natural tails. Everyone who knows me knows I am very much against tail cutting and it would take a truly special individual to make me cross that line.

Nowhere in my post did I say that only the KSF horses were worthwhile. In fact, the point of my post was to say that breeders who DO adopt that standpoint are shooting themselves in the foot. Cutting the tails on every two year old they have is just one more way they limit a horses' career if they wash out as a SS horse or if the owner wishes to pursue another direction someday.

[mskyar]

I'm not totally sold on embryo transfer although it's invaluable if a mare cannot carry a foal to term. However, on the subject of AI, if live cover was insisted upon within our small circle, I think we would see more concentrations of certain bloodlines in certain areas of the country. I feel our bloodlines are becoming too minimalizing already, and would hate to see this encouraged. AI allows bloodlines to be infused anywhere including out of the country. It may work for the Thoroughbred lines because the Thoroughbred registry is so well established and healthy, but I see it only as a detriment for our small breed. Furthermore, take into consideration that when we were breeding mares, we did it on a very small scale - one to two a year. For small time breeders like us, it is not worth the expense to ship a mare across the country for breeding. AI allows us to utilize a stallion no matter where he is located and although AI is not inexpensive, it is still generally less than shipping fees can add up to for a lengthy haul, plus lengthy hauls aren't always healthy for a mare.

I understand the reasoning behind the AI.....instead of not having at all, maybe limit the numbers some how????? Don't have an answer.......and I think the only reason for embryo transfer should be that a mare that has been bred numerous times and can't carry a baby might be a candidate, but still don't think there should be more than one baby out of one mare in a given year, either carried or by embryo transfer......

[Samigator]

Well in that case, you have just hit upon a major pet peeve of mine which is the slow disappearance of what used to be known as the Saturday night show. I wasn't thrilled when our board decided to tabulate points on all shows in the state, not just the one day shows, because it rewarded those that could afford the multi-day shows and slammed those who could only attend one day shows. Apparently in Minnesota's case, they don't have a good reason to have one day shows anymore and in my humble opinion, that is a gross negligence and ignorance of why Chapters were instituted in the first place. So Sami - you have my sympathy - all I can say is perhaps you can start a push for at least a few one day shows in your state - I feel for you. You are a textbook example of what can happen to folks who would prefer a one day show and don't have them to attend.

Exactly! What a novel idea- honestly, I would LOVE it if we had some 1-day shows around here because THAT is an avenue I could pursue to support the breed. I don't know what it would take to get it done, but I would definately support them if they existed here. I wonder why they have gone out of favor against the longer 3-4 day shows? Is it because of the hassle involved for the big stables to pack up and go to these shows for 1 day? I suppose the 3 day shows are more profitable for show comittees to rent facilities, etc. But if we had some smaller shows, have a little bit more generalized (and therefore bigger) classes instead of a million different classes with 2 entries each, it could all get done in a day, stalling could be optional, etc. Gosh maybe I need to move to Georgia. lol Thanks Susan for enlightening me.
-Leah

ETA: the MN Half-Arab association does a great job filling that mid-level niche here, I have been to a number of shows co-sponsored by the MNHAHA and WSCA (open all-breed circuit) and these are always great shows. Perhaps MSHA could do the same?

[mskyar]

Did you read my whole post?

I would not cut tails on ANY horse who wouldn't be an upper echelon SS horse. That means, all the others, Saddle Seat or not, would have natural tails. Everyone who knows me knows I am very much against tail cutting and it would take a truly special individual to make me cross that line.

Nowhere in my post did I say that only the KSF horses were worthwhile. In fact, the point of my post was to say that breeders who DO adopt that standpoint are shooting themselves in the foot. Cutting the tails on every two year old they have is just one more way they limit a horses' career if they wash out as a SS horse or if the owner wishes to pursue another direction someday.

I wasn't referring to the cut tail situation, just that everyhorse bred doesn't need to be KSF caliber to be considered worthwhile, it was just a general statement (you didn't say that they were the only ones worthwhile).......I was just using that one line, and I think that if you are breeding, KSF quality is what you are hoping for, and if not why are you breeding? We all know that they won't all be that caliber I like the idea that every horse has a job and place to be what they are meant to be, but there are fewer and fewer places for that horse to find his 'niche'. I am not against tail cutting, and if there is a chance you have that the type that might make it cutting younger rather than older is easier and also easier to go back to a more natural carriage if they don't make the grade.....but only cut where constant proper care is available.

[vlayne]

The WI association only puts on one show (a big, four-day "A" rated show) and then has one or two academy shows. They tabulate points from any member show, so lots of the shows in MN and IL (and perhaps other states too, I'm not sure) count for points.

We have a good "B" circuit in the area, but all the shows are in IL. There are no small, one day or weekend shows in WI that I know of.

The WI association doesn't do much at all to promote the breed in the state, or help out smaller exhibitors who have "local quality" horses. In fact, AFAIK, there weren't even Saddlebreds at the Midwest Horse Fair for the last few years - one of the largest horse expos in the country.

[Silly Filly]

I really don't understand how anyone could be against transported semen. We don't do any live cover, it's safer for the mare and the stud, not to mention the stud managers would have to have a much larger farm to house all of those outside mares.

[jshay]

Ditto Silly Filly......eliminating TS will not help.....one previous poster suggested that less people go to farms and therefore do not purchase more mares and colts, but I don't think that is why less folks are buying....I think it is economic in scope, everything, feed, labor, land, transport is just more expensive, while incomes have not kept pace. BTW, I or my sister went to at least 8 farms this year to look at stallions and foals, several of those farms we went to multiple visits to see stallions and their foals, to make decisions....and we did not purchase anything, because we wanted to breed our own mares. We just don't have enough land and labor/help for more mares and the offspring they will produce while we have to wait for them to be marketable.

Quite honestly, we just got our two mares in foal by TS, had both initially checked on the same day, gave them a shot to bring both in on the same day, both mares cooperated and were bred from the same shipment and both got in foal.....(I attribute this to a good, fertile stallion, easy to get in foal mares and a great VET....) BTW, my cost was $300 for the shipment, which will be split in half and my vet bill was $411 per mare for the cycle. I know I would have had more money in shipping the mare and mare care/vet work, plus I really didn't want to send my mare out. I guess I feel, for me anyway, TS is cheaper.

[kross]

I was thinking about this today. . . this is my constant debate with pumping money into the Saddlebred industry. Let's say I have a nice, quality ASB- a well turned out AOT keep-at-home show horse who has everything to be competitive at local B shows and at least fit in at A shows (we're imagining here) but lacks that extreme head/neckset that is required to be successful at the larger shows. What is my motivation to show him at breed shows? To bring home a couple of pieces of ribbon on a rosette? We have nothing to gain. . . really. . . I can bring him to local shows for $3 a class, show out of my trailer, and have just as much fun for a small fraction of the cost- plus I can get some very nice high point awards from these. Why should I bring him to breed shows and support the ASB industry when I have nothing more to gain and lots more to lose? I just don't see what the motivation is other than to increase my credit card debt- how is the breed going to target and include people in my situation (and I can promise you there are many) who want to compete but just can't justify it with such alternatives? We have to water the roots to keep the tree growing, don't we? And it is probably people like me who will hopefully eventually try to move up the ladder and buy and compete that nicer, "mid-level" show horse- why make it so hard for us and turn us away?

Samigator I'm struggling w/this post.

What is wrong or non-supportive of the ASB industry by going to a venue that you can have fun, be a stand-out and doesn't cost a fortune? Not having shining examples at these venues are the type of things that have hurt the breed.

If people would start recognizing the value of their own contribution just by getting out there and enjoying what they have-- instead of this feeling of "lesser than" that I see portrayed over and over again whenever we have discussions about the state of the industry--we could change the state of the industry.

Do you guys realize that we are having to learn American "can do" from a Canadian? :D (sorry Leo couldn't resist)

[attafox]

I'm sorry, but when there are less than a handful of studs within reasonable driving distance of my mare, I just don't think limiting my gene pool to them is correct - and would, in fact, result in a lesser quality individual given the lines (on paper). We're not talking the 60's when California (before tax laws) was horse friendly and Saddlebred heavy.

[ASB Stars]

Have you ever asked yourself who sets the price points? How do we actually arrive at a value on any given horse?

Using the OP's analogy, and the fact that I work in the New Construction industry, I can offer a comparison to marketing New Homes. We look at the "three P's", when ascertaining how we stand up in the marketplace: Person, Price, and Product.

In this case, the person would be the horse trainer. Not only is this person working the horse, they are also endeavoring to sell the horse for their client- we'll say this is the breeder, and that this is the first time this horse has been on the market. The person is going to attempt to set a price to sell the horse. Obviously, they are going to discuss this with their client, and the client is going to have to agree to whatever the person determines to be the price, in order for the horse to get sold.

The price that is being asked for the horse needs to be fair market, but how is that established? Occasionally, we hear of the cronies who are able to bring a buddy with a client in to sell a horse for more than they are worth- but let's just say we're dealing with ethical people here. If you set the price, and show the horse to a number of qualified prospective buyers, and the do not write the check, you have to re-think your price, don't you.

Your product needs to find it's niche in the marketplace. Is this a top prospect? For what division? What level of rider can best use this horse? What level of showing can this horse be expectedto be competitive at?

If your horse doesn't sell, you can change the person- the trainer, and have them attempt to get the same price as trainer #1. Or, you can simply adjust your price for the market. Of course, you may find that your horse does not have the requisite qualities to merit that higher price. In new homes, for example, we have certain amenities which are expected at each price level. The same is true of horses. When marketing new homes, we look at comparables- and so do the appraisers- moreso now, than ever. Analagous to this would be the question, "what other horses, of the same price point, have sold in the past six months?" And then, ask yourself, did the price bear out? When these horses hit the ring, were they competitive with other horses represented to be of the same price point?

Finally, when assessing product, you need to find, as has been mentioned, the highest and best use. If your prospect does not compare favorably with others on the market, at the price point you have been told is reasonable, or does not sell when properly presented to a qualified group of buyers, you need to ask anoher question. "Is this product/horse actually appropriate for this market, or do I need to diversify my marketing?"

In New Homes, if we need to offer a different floor plan, or a different price point (with alternate amenities) in a community, in order to supply to pent up demand, for that type of product, we do it. Otherwise, we'd be sitting with a bunch of lots (raw product) which are running up the interest bill, and eating us alive, but are not able to be sold, because no appropriate buyer can be found.

So, the bottom line is, your trainer is bringing your product to market, advertising it, preparing and presenting it to prospective buyers, and pricing it. That is alot of responsibility, and control. Not everyone can do all of that, and especially not if the product winds up being outside of their specialty. Then, you need to seek out those who can market your product successfully. We need to accurately assess the value of any colt, as early on as possible, and direct them into the best possible situation to maximize the breeder's benefit.

[ihfarm]

[QUOTE=kross;54336]Samigator I'm struggling w/this post.

What is wrong or non-supportive of the ASB industry by going to a venue that you can have fun, be a stand-out and doesn't cost a fortune? Not having shining examples at these venues are the type of things that have hurt the breed.

If people would start recognizing the value of their own contribution just by getting out there and enjoying what they have-- instead of this feeling of "lesser than" that I see portrayed over and over again whenever we have discussions about the state of the industry--we could change the state of the industry.QUOTE]

In several breed assoications they have started recognizing open horse show points, which are recorded for award program for year-end and life points for the horse. Some of the associations include: APHA (paint), Arabian, Pinto Horse, IQPA (quarter pony), and rumor as it the AQHA has added one. I do know in my local area the breeds with a point system (especially the APHA and Arab) have become more popular due to the fact that there is award/point system for them. They are also prompting their breed locally and given the opportunity to add new people to their industry. As long as there is no fee to qualify their show, the open horse shows will sign-up for the program, promote that breeds program (extra advertisement -- on show bills, signs hung up on the show grounds, in the shows ads in advertising the show,e tc...), and gladly sign-off on an individuals paper work. I do know the different individual breeds sometimes charge the individual to be in the program or automatically figured into their membership fee as a benefit. Some of the awards system do include 4-H and pony clubbers.

Don't we need blood (people) to keep going? Plus, it would assist in giving individual trainers, breeders, and instructors good reputations on the local level (or recommendations). Word of mouth at the local level is still a strong advertisement.

As far as going to breed shows that have academy classes (which I, personally, think are good idea) or rated A or B, we must drive a minium of 2 1/2 hours or more. There use to be A and B rated shows within an hour drive from us, but no longer. I will be honest the cost is big deterient in getting parents to want to send their kids. It cost parent $300 min in show fees and the child maybe rides in 2 to 4 classes. The same family can spend $50 to $150 on one day show and the child can show in 4 to 10 classes (some of our one day shows do offer stalls at $15 to $25 for the day). Our class fees in the area are $2 to $6/class. Please note I have not included the cost of gas, hauling, and hotel.

Also in my area we have a circuit that is just a series of open youth shows (which cater to all levels and discplines of youth riders). In the last 2 or 3 years, we have had an All Breed Futurity Develop. You can start in the middle to end of August through to the end of October and go to several all breed futurities in the area (the jackpot and money have gotten bigger)

***On side note I think it is great thread, you have given me a lot to think about. I agree with alot of what is being said. Thank you for the great input.

[Samigator]

Samigator I'm struggling w/this post.

What is wrong or non-supportive of the ASB industry by going to a venue that you can have fun, be a stand-out and doesn't cost a fortune? Not having shining examples at these venues are the type of things that have hurt the breed.

If people would start recognizing the value of their own contribution just by getting out there and enjoying what they have-- instead of this feeling of "lesser than" that I see portrayed over and over again whenever we have discussions about the state of the industry--we could change the state of the industry.

Do you guys realize that we are having to learn American "can do" from a Canadian? :D (sorry Leo couldn't resist)

If I am showing at open shows and not ASB shows, I'm not supporting my local ASHA chapter- I'm not paying for their shows, not attending them, not needing to pay ASHA or local chapter membership fees, not helping them grow, etc. If I am having a difficult time breaking in to the breed world because of the cost of the shows, why would I ever want to invest in one of those mid-market or higher end horses in the future (lets be honest, in an open show the difference between a $10K horse and a $100K horse wouldn't be appreciated as much and may not do any more for earning breed recognition, probably wouldn't get me higher ribbons, etc), I wouldn't be exposed to trainers who could try to earn my business, etc.

I was talking to hubby about this last night, lol, and he has no problem with paying for a nice show horse (if he had the money) and taking that risk (only because he has experienced that one in a million success), but he has a big problem with paying $100 for a stall at a show when we pay $400/month (or whatever board is) for a place to keep our horses. Isn't that funny?

[mand_asbfan]

Definetly agree on the open show program - I had started another thread on this. We need an open show program at the state and/or national level to have a starting place for people interested in Saddlebreds, increase breed loyalty (if I show local/4-H and I have a saddleseat Saddlebred but then decide, hey I want a huntseat horse if I'm in no way "linked" to the Saddlebred, what would drive me to purchase another instead of an Arab/QH/____), and this would provide another more viable option for the non-KSF quality horses.

I think if we could get an open show program and fix up the B shows we would have a lot more participation as showing would be more affordable. We have quite a few B shows in IL but they actually cost more for us to travel to and they have almost the same horses as the A show. I'd like to try and get more B/weekend/one day shows going here in WI.

Our barn usually does a breed demo each year at a local horse fair called Horse-A-Rama. Every year our demo is packed and we hear tons of compliments (they are SOOO pretty!!)... I think we may get a few new lesson kids but none have ever stuck around.... I tend to think this is due to the cost and I hate to say it but we tend to have an "elitest" attitude... I remember some of the girls at our barn laughing about the 4-H kids and their "crappy, ugly horses" - I quickly reminded them that Ginger, her sister Candy, and I have all come up the ranks through 4-H. As a matter of fact, of my 4-H friends one is breeding and showing Class A level POAs, one has been to QH Congress and placed, and another is working for a Class A level Belgian farm - what if we had snagged them over to Saddlebreds earlier???

[GottaDrive]

We have too many people wanting to take money out of the horse industry without putting money in! No ifs, ands, or buts. Unless you also buy, train or pay someone to train, exhibit, and show horses you should not be breeding. Otherwise, what is the point? We do not need a larger pool of babies and prospects/suspects. We have too many as it is.

[Samigator]

mand_asbfan- could you get some 1 day shows in Western WI? lol

I agree, I think we need to do some more advertising- expos, etc, are a great way to get people into the breed.

For some illustration of this point- this is how we got into ASBs. A few years ago I was leasing a QH and showing at open shows, and my hubby went along to a show and saw his first Saddlebreds in one of the english classes, knees high, heads up, they stood out from the rest of the QH's at the show and he loved the energy and elegance they had. I had always liked Saddlebreds as my instructor had one problem child of an amazingly talented, unregistered ASB that she had inherited that I had been able to lease in the past. Suprised that my hubby had commented on these horses, I said, "do you want to see some real Saddlebreds?" and we went to watch a local Saddlebred expo, explaining what the different classes were, what they were looking for, training methods and tools, etc for the beginners to understand the breed. Of course he was amazed when he saw the 5-gaited and fine harness horses and instantly both of us fell in love with the breed. We put our names in a drawing and he won 3 free lessons at a local ASB stable. He went for his lessons (I was away at college) and reported back at how spectacular the stable was, what kind of amazing service he got, and how wonderful the trainers he met were. From there, I leased/bought a project ASB from a friend of mine, he bought me a package of lessons, which prompted me to continue to bring my ASB in for training lessons every month or so, and eventually ended up going to watch more shows, putting my horse in training for a couple of months with them, showing in one or two breed shows, etc. Now I bought a nice young ASB prospect to train myself and hubby and I are both totally amazed by and in love with the breed, just wishing we could afford to be more involved in the breed.

If it happened to us with "free lessons," it can happen to a lot more people. Get the ads out there, show off the breed to people who aren't already involved and make it attainable for them. I loved seeing Saddlebreds on the cover of the Midwest horseman's journal, I showed it to all of my friends in different breeds. I agree with Brita's first post way back, in that we need to hook the lower market in order to sustain the breed as people work their way up that ladder, buying nicer horses over time. But we need to attract NEW people and make it doable for them! Open shows are a great place to start- if not for the people showing their ASBs in local shows, we never would have gotten into Saddlebreds.

Sorry for the novel. I think it's a nice story. ;)

[kross]

Everyone talking about the horse shows... I think one of the biggest wake up calls a person can have as to the expenses of showing is to get involved in the local chapter.

It costs money, a lot of money, to throw a show even a one day event. People want nice facilities, they want nice ribbons/prizes/, they want good judges and good officials, they want everything yet what are most willing to give to get their wants? These things don't just magically appear. The dollar amounts being charged are reflective of the committee trying to meet all of these wants and cover the costs involved. Money made on one show goes to improve or add more shows/classes/etc. Not into any individuals pocket. What goes on in anyones area is reflective of the peoples needs in that area...as in those that are involved are those that are going to have their wants and needs met. It means those people are there not only w/their animals and their show fees, it means they are there w/their time, their effort and they beat the bushes to find sponsorships to make the shows successful beyond their own needs and wants.

I never thought of it when I helped w/the Academy shows in MI because participation in all aspects of making the shows successful is just what we (all the trainers) did, but I'll tell you what being on the board out here and helping run shows is shocking, very unrewarding and I feel the utmost guilt at not being more helpful w/the actual assoc. shows in the other states I've lived in. If you don't want to be a participant at those shows, go be a volunteer--gatekeeper, ribbon presenter, man the silent auctions, find sponsors, vendors,come up w/fundraising events, the list of thing one can do to support something even if they themselves aren't going to be showing is never ending.

The Assoc's can not afford to meet everyone's demands. Instead of saying "this is what we want" go help develop what is already in existence in your area.

[mand_asbfan]

If you don't want to be a participant at those shows, go be a volunteer--gatekeeper, ribbon presenter, man the silent auctions, find sponsors, vendors,come up w/fundraising events, the list of thing one can do to support something even if they themselves aren't going to be showing is never ending.


If you can't do that at least sponsor a class! My trainer now sponsors at least one class a show and divides the fee amongst those attending the show - some customers were mad but if you can fork out the money to go to the show can't you afford to fork out $10-$30 (split) to support the show?

[mand_asbfan]

This thread has so much great stuff in it that I had to make a summary and a list of "to dos":

1. Increase publicity for shows and expos. Provide pamphlets to show spectators with information on the Saddlebred and the classes offered.

2. Increase the Saddlebreds participation in multi-breed events. Specify marketing techniques for non-horse owners and to pull horse owners from other breeds. This includes advertising in non-horse publications. Advertising is not just the responsibility of an association. It is up to each one of us to determine our extent of involvement in promotion.

3. We need to consistently offer and promote more divisions (Huntseat, Western, Sport Horse) at the ASB shows, especially Louisville. Also, we need more classes/divisions that promote different levels of horses and riders (Classic Pleasure, Novice, etc).

4. We need to find a way to incorporate show history data into the current data available to include other events (dressage, endurance, etc.).

5. Organize more B or one day shows and/or allow exhibitors to show out of their trailers.

6. Implement an open show program at the National and/or State level. If local states are not willing to add a whole program, see if they will accept points from other local show associations.

This has got me all excited about the things I want to do!!!! I guess the question is "ask not what your breed association can do but what you can do for your breed association?". :smartass: Just think if each of us can do one "to do" and we get all of our ASB friends to do a "to do" and they get their friends....

[sunridge]

And the debate goes on.... The same as it's gone on my whole ASB life....nearing 40 years now. Guess what? I don't care anymore. I've gelded everything I have. I will NEVER participate in the ASB show ring nor will I ever sell a horse to be an ASB show horse again.

True horsemanship and showing is nearly an oxymoron these days. I will not support a system that totally ignores the well-being of the star player (the horse) for money, status, ego etc.

Until the REAL horsemen return, count me out of the horse industry as it it stands.

[Fairfax]

And the debate goes on.... The same as it's gone on my whole ASB life....nearing 40 years now. Guess what? I don't care anymore. I've gelded everything I have. I will NEVER participate in the ASB show ring nor will I ever sell a horse to be an ASB show horse again.

True horsemanship and showing is nearly an oxymoron these days. I will not support a system that totally ignores the well-being of the star player (the horse) for money, status, ego etc.

Until the REAL horsemen return, count me out of the horse industry as it it stands.

Mary..I am sad to see you toss the towel into the ring

The show ring has changed, as have the requirements for a competitor. The same is true of the Olympics which would be equivalent to KSF. The demands on the athlete are stronger, higher, faster AND lookin good. Only a few will qualify and only a few should.

KSF- Lexington- Rock Creek etc are not for the faint of heart financially nor for those who are not at the top of their game.

I showed many Arabians to National honors in Can and U.S. Now, reality check.. 1970-1980's What I won with then, while great for their days, would not win in todays showring.

I would have two choices. Breed for the ring or breed for myself.

There are more than enough stallions standing at stud who are producing great, that a breeder must decide whether or not their stallion is worthy. Ego aside, I think all of us should look at a stallion with a jaundiced eye. Test him on our own mares and only when he justifies keeping his testicles and putting them to use...then should he be promoted.

AND promoted a breeder/owner must do. That is not just a local gas station bulletin board. A stallion owner is responsible for creating an awareness and demand for his offspring. And they, must prove their worth "in the showring". IF YOU WANT NATIONAL RECOGNITION AND SOME HEALTHY FINANCIAL REWARDS.

The show ring is where we meet the challenges.."My horse is better than your horse". Of course the judge may have a conflict of interest, and the best horse may not win...but then...I know I have won when I shouldn't have and I have not won when I should have..

And, it costs lots of money.

I am amazed by the number of posters who complain about the costs...Big shows are expensive. But there are many charity shows or small shows where one hones their skills, and has an opportunity to evaluate their horse, breeding, etc, against the competition.

A breeder must produce a product that they can live with if they can not sell it OR that has something of value that will create a saleable interest. It is up to we breeders to find our niche..but if we aim low, that is the highest we are going to achieve. Slaughter feedlots are full of those.

There is always an answer to every problem Some are hiding, but they are there. If we can stay focused and positive as individuals, against all adversity, evaluate our horses and their ability to produce with clear vision and honesty..we may have to disband and start all over, make some corrections with our bloodlines, or we may choose to withdraw from the breed. The later, always makes me sad, as the breed looses a person with a particular knowledge granted only to them..but maybe you will stay involved in some fashion. I bet there are a dozen shows that would love to have you as a volunteer .

The show ring is not the enemy. It is our unrealistic expectation that is.

[sunridge]

My reason's are many. As of this moment in time. It's the *Show ring* practices. Actually it was the straw, along with lack of promotion of "Jeez these are just great horses."

They gotta clean up the training practices. Leo I think you left the Arabian breed for many of the same reasons as I but IMO you just shifted breeds. I've taken in alot from other breed and discipline forums and websites. I've been doing my homework for many years physcially and mentally in the horse industry. Seriously the show horse industry, from AQHA WP to heaven forbid, Dressage needs to clean up it act. It's not TWH horse only phenomena.

We as a modern culture spit in the faces of our true horseman ancestors with the training practices of today. (And have improved on some.) Personally that is not and will never okay with me. We should be smarter> read better than that but as a herd bound animal ourselves we simply keep doing and thinking "everybody else does it!" We really haven't evolved a great deal.

Gimmicks and gadgets are not solution but a shortcut.

[Fairfax]

Hi Mary

You are correct. I did shift breeds. I just burned out after 21 dead foals in three years due to SCID...we all tried so hard. Eleanor McColley of R Farm (the original one) put down her 36 mares and 5 stallions one afternoon. USDA told us it was caused by a virus. She had a nervous breakdown...tried to breed Egyptian horses, but her heart wasn't in it.

I see no need for cruelty in training and yes....you are correct that it is in ALL breeds and disciplines. Dressage in Europe can bring tears to ones eyes..and not the good type.

I have always enjoyed the show ring. Win, Draw or Lose. To me, the horses are a passion however they give me the opportunity to meet like minded individuals who share the same hobby with the same enthusiasm and intensity.

I will and do speak out against stupidity (i.e. trainers banging the ring sides during a class to let the judge know that is THEIR student).....This is supposed to be the test...no cheating... and also I speak out against cruelty...and I would, hopefully, not have a horse in training with a known abuser.

In a few years, I will have something to show...until then, I will be greatful for the wonderful horses and people I have met in my journey.

I am sorry you won't be along for the hike....you might want to reconsider. The view of the ring is great...even from the upper peaks of the seat.

[sdlbredfan]

I agree with the "Gimmicks and gadgets are not solution but a shortcut" but sadly the number of trainers who know how to get the job done without them is dwindling over time. I am grateful I learned from someone who actually knows how to train, how to put a mouth on a horse and keep the horse bright and happy, but that makes it harder for me to be able to stand to see mule bits and twisted wire snaffles on babies, among other things.

As the great Walter Zettl has said about current day competitive dressage "I cannot go to those competitions because I cannot bear to see what is done to those poor horses" - which I heard from him firsthand at his clinic at WWU a few years ago, many of the current saddle seat training practices I see literally turn my stomach. Worst of all, they are so unnecessary, as these horses are so willing to cooperate, if given a chance, there is no excuse for some of excrement that passes for 'training'. I do love to see a beautiful Saddlebred, doing anything, and when I do see a saddle seat horse that has the aptitude and appropriate training, I enjoy those 'peacocks of the show ring' very much. I do believe though that there absolutely must be a way to get the horses that are not big time saddle seat type horses into jobs they can do and will enjoy, and not treat them as rejects or culls. (Sunridge, I am very sorry that you did geld your lovely boy, but can understand the frustration that made you do it.)

[kross]

While not all trainers of today are great neither were all trainers of yore. Today, like then, one has to look to find a trainer that meets their needs. Or train the horse yourself in your preferred manner. Gadjets and gimmicks in the right hands are merely aids and in the wrong hands are torture. Same thing w/bits including hackamores, side pulls and smooth snaffles.

The motivitation behind competition is also what has given us the greatest advances in care of the animals. Desire for beautiful coats, keeping a horse sound through vet work and shoeing, comfortably bridled (dentistry), best diets and so on, didn't come from the back yard.

Mary I'm w/Fairfax and Sdlbrdfan, I'm sorry to hear of your decision regarding your own program.

[sunridge]

Many things are true about the advances in vet care. However living where I live I have yet to see them. So most things I take care of myself. Haven't had a real emergency here in many, many years. The gelding of my stallions went badly for both breeding stallions, making sure I will never do THAT again.

You can defend your ways, your trainer ways etc. But I've seen too much. Just as my chosen few will NEVER see a slaughter truck. Even my nice babies that leave here will NEVER see the inside of an ASB show ring if I can help it. It makes me cringe these days. My horses are absolutely stunning on their own. I see absolutely no need to modify their beauty. i.e. tail cutting and clown shoes. As I've said before, I get to see a horse show everyday and there are different winners (depends on who shows the strongest) but hands down my big gelding and former old stallion are the classiest.
Too bad I can't pasture them together and call for a workout.:tt1:

My last sale was the nail in coffin for ASB land. These eventer people have fallen in love with their new horse. Totally blow away by the personality and try. But many still doubt her decision. She's hearing, all the things I heard when going outside the box. Basically the ASB can't do it. That IT ranges from jumping to packing in the mountains. The premier saddle horse in this country should not have this reputation.

I met my best friend at my first show as an adult. She's still active and I go to shows to support HER. My other dear ASB friend was Monty Wallen, I loved watching him ride. He was a brilliant rider. We'd been friends for 30+ years. So I've met some that have impacted my life positively. My other dear friend for life was met through horses. It was the horses, not the show ring. It always should be about the horses. They are at our mercy.

I have a gorgeous yearling filly that is a culmination of all the bloodlines and horses that I've loved. She's an alpha female and going to be a beauty. Will she set the world on fire? Probably not because I own her, but she'll burn brightly with me.

[ASB Stars]

I understand how Mary feels. Within the breed, if you are not out there, doing it, putting horses in training- SHOW horses, that is- you are treated as a second class owner/breeder. Outside of the breed, you fight the good fight to expose the world to the wonder that is the American Saddlebred, and you have to push back against and image that people like the OP perpetuate. And make NO mistake- they believe it- and want to continue to promote that peacock image, at the expense of all else- including the major casualty- the horses.

My horses have accomplished more than I ever thought about being possible. And yet, it is hard to take any public joy in their successes, amidst the negative issues. That is not to say that I do not love being able to share each and every day with them- I cannot imagine life without them.

Like Mary, I am far away from the center of the breed- Kentucky. And even if I was not, I do not have the wherewithall to keep up with that crowd. The training issues she mentions are very real issues for the public, and, for those of us who step back, and actually take a look, they have become harder and harder to defend. The public sees feet and tails- they cannot see the beauty of the breed, beyond those oddities.

It isn't just their loss...it is the horses loss, as well. And mores the pity- we owe them so much more....

[kross]

I must simply be the eternal optimist. All of us here have been through similar situations defending the breed, explaining the practices, having our dreams shattered by someone we entrusted to act in our best interest, feeling like no matter how well the plan was laid there is always something making it difficult.

The best thing I ever did was to step back, remember why I started breeding and realize when it comes to breeding I don't care...I don't care about the state of the industry...I do this for me. I don't care what the public thinks...I do this for me. And when I got that monkey off my back things have been so much better because I only have to prove myself to myself.

____


Stars and Mary I don't want you guys to read this post wrong because I am well aware of what you guys put into your horses and Stars I know what you have managed to accomplish despite huge prejudices from all directions. I just think that sometimes part of the problem we have in the industry is we only want to talk about what is wrong and not what is good....and there is good going on too. Look at what you guys have accomplished for the entire breed by using your belief in your own horses to pursue your dreams... look at all the people you brought in, look at the attitudes you have changed--inside and outside of the breed and the look at list goes on and on.

[3mares]

I still consider myself an outsider because I am not yet back into showing. I have to say, I am not aware of some of the exact situations mentioned here, but I also had a bad feeling about horsemanship these days. I have always felt that you have to have the big, fancy, expensive horse or you are looked down on in the industry. And I am not referring to only the trainers.

However, I attended a small, local show last night and drug my non horse husband along. I knew an instructor that had a child showing in the 5-gaited class. I had the chance to be behind the scenes again with her and her student. I have to say, this was one of the nicest young girl's I have met and you could just see that the mother was spending every penny she had on this horse for her daughter to be able to show. She wore a hand-me-down suit, old bridle, no-name saddle, etc. She and her horse looked average warming up and she went through the gate and everything came together for her. She had a flawless ride and she won her class!

It really gave me the hope that I needed. I have been hoping to be able to show again someday, even if it is at the smaller shows. Seeing this nice girl have so much fun and win her class without putting a bunch of money into it gave me the hope that I needed. Maybe next year for me. Even if I had the horse to compete at the bigger shows, I don't see hubby wanting to spend the money. So, I will be very happy with a smaller show. And guess what, hubby had fun being behind the scenes like that too and was very impressed with the whole thing.

Again, this is a fresh outsider's point of view. I haven't been involved enough to get the same feelings that some you have but I don't doubt that they are valid.

Again, this is just my two cents and since they were positive I wanted to share my experience.

[sunridge]

I never went into the breeding business to "make" money. << is laughing hysterically. It actually started with a dream to expose the public to this wonderful breed and hopefully turn some local folks. Which I have done. But before that I got sucked back into the show ring albeit futurity shows. I went from Amateur no shoes to CH weanling in 3 years. With a free mare and a $250 breeding to a never bred unknown stallion. I find that bazaar. Horse sold for 5 figures down the road. That was easy beans, I had NO attachment to the weanling. In fact I literally only touched that horse the day he was born and the day he left for the trainers. He had one purpose, and poor guy accomplished it for me. I never set foot inside a show ring again. Told myself the day I look at them as dollar signs I'm out but then once again had to be reminded why. I was breeding for show ring.

I continued to breed, for myself and like minded folks. Those that approach horsemanship with intellect and curiosity. An appreciation for hand raised horses allowed to be a horses. I get big eyes and arched necks from treat anticipation not from show ring *conditioning*. I see big huge trots off all 4 corners, nostrils flaring, those necks up, tails flagging because there is a wild turkey or deer or nothing at all in their pasture. A site to behold.

I'm all beat up now, the youngsters are beyond my physical scope these days. I trust but one person to train for me and she's older than I am! Like I said there are many reasons but I draw the line when I damn near have to pay someone to take my well-bred, properly conformed, never had a bad day in their lives youngsters. As it stands I won't outlive the horses I have.

Holy cow how can one person get the word out that the American Saddlebred is even a breed. THAT fact really burns my ___! Regular horse people have never, ever even heard of this breed. America's first registered breed, war horse, frontier horse, movie horse, only horse to grace the cover of SI. How is that possible? ARG! I digress.

Leaps off soap box. Then crashes to the floor. Oops leaping is bad....

[silvia]

I feel pretty enthusiastic about the prospects for the breed where I am. We have several new breeders/owners and I get plenty of enqiries from people interested in information about the breed, having seen us advertise our stallions.

10 years ago we were without fail confused with Standardbreds.

Today about half the horse people I happen to talk to know what a Saddlebred is. About half of those know they are in our state.

So getting there!

[snowfool]

3Mares - I'm so glad you were witness to something so positive - that young lady probably has a very good instructor and a nice horse too - clothing/tack doesn't always win and I'd say that young lady proved that pretty well.

Mary - I don't quite understand your experience with showing a weanling/weanlings in correlation to your attitude so I'm guessing there's a few things that have gone untold? At any rate, my husband and I also showed our yearlings in their futurities in the past but we did not show our weanlings. I personally don't believe in showing a weanling (or about to be weanling as in the case of some) in the manner that they are shown in. I don't care for shoeing them at all and working with them in the manner that is needed to put forth what is considered a "proper" presentation. I know there is an amateur provision in our rules that states something to the effect that if a class is provided for amateurs to show babies, they can be shown naturally, but I've never seen a breed show that was willing to offer an amateur only baby class. So in essence, I'm agreeing with you in that I don't care for the way weanlings are shown. However, once they're yearlings, I'm okay with it - they're generally mature enough to handle the shoeing and the pressure.

We never had any visions of breeding and making real money - we were pretty realistic from the start on that. It was something that we did for pleasure and sheer enjoyment. However, we stopped breeding two years ago because it was too hard to sell the babies to a shakey future - I've always been one to get attached to anything we owned and when the market became so unhealthy, I just didn't have it in me to run such a high risk. At present we have the distinct pleasure of knowing where every one of our former foals are and what they are doing.

Kross - I totally appreciate your post - just please remember that in this market, you have to try a little harder for those babies to make sure they get steered in the right direction. You strike me as a person who probably already knows this :yes: .

I'm beginning to lose respect for the quantity breeders in our breed. That was not the case until the last few years but watching how they liquidate their absolutely less than stellar youngsters, thru Tattersalls or other "throw away" avenues, has caused this. In essence, some of them have become "horse mills" and are still breeding the same numbers as always. Quantity will NEVER equal quality and the larger the breeding establishment, the more "quality" is going to take a beating. I don't know what the answer is to get these larger breeding farms to cease churning out the sheer numbers of foals, but something needs to get thru to them that they're not helping anybody, not even themselves.

This is all just a bit of a ramble this mornning but I guess my real question is - since most (not all) of those that participate on this board are pretty consciencious in breeding practices, how do we impress upon these large breeding farms to CUT IT OUT - STOP THE UNNECESSARY BREEDING, when it is still their legal right to do so?

[kross]

[QUOTE=snowfool;54559]
Kross - I totally appreciate your post - just please remember that in this market, you have to try a little harder for those babies to make sure they get steered in the right direction. You strike me as a person who probably already knows this :yes: .
QUOTE]

Snowfool...I'm going to address the part to me not because I'm concerned about it but to give others some ideas...several yrs ago the OP said to me breed only a few quality mares rather than lots. At first I didn't like the idea, how am I to promote a stud by breeding only a few? I thought about it though,thought about who I am as person regarding my belief system for the horses, the love and attachment (I'm like you) along w/doing the math of not only how much it costs, how quickly those costs add up, but how fast one can go from 10 to 20 and so on w/their horse ownership numbers. I heeded his advice and then added to it... I gave myself the rule unless I could afford to care for a horse for it's entire life (not actually anticipating doing that) I don't need to be creating another one. By doing this the market doesn't matter to me and that is very liberating.

But you want to know the real reason it was most liberating...I'm actually pretty darn good at this courtesy of a great stud. As a sire he gave me what I wanted to create. Crossed w/ mares that I believed in I was never let down and its carrying on through the next generation. The problem lay in the fact that through these horses that I believed in I was creating horses that deserve the $$$ and I had to entrust others to obtain that for me. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Want to talk about a dream burner?

Now it is fun, really fun, because its all about me and my dreams and I don't have to be dependent on anyone else to obtain it.

[kross]

I'm beginning to lose respect for the quantity breeders in our breed. That was not the case until the last few years but watching how they liquidate their absolutely less than stellar youngsters, thru Tattersalls or other "throw away" avenues, has caused this. In essence, some of them have become "horse mills" and are still breeding the same numbers as always. Quantity will NEVER equal quality and the larger the breeding establishment, the more "quality" is going to take a beating. I don't know what the answer is to get these larger breeding farms to cease churning out the sheer numbers of foals, but something needs to get thru to them that they're not helping anybody, not even themselves.

This is all just a bit of a ramble this mornning but I guess my real question is - since most (not all) of those that participate on this board are pretty consciencious in breeding practices, how do we impress upon these large breeding farms to CUT IT OUT - STOP THE UNNECESSARY BREEDING, when it is still their legal right to do so?

Unfortunately I know no way to get this message across. I would like to get this message to everyone whether its horses, small animals or children.

[sunridge]

This is all just a bit of a ramble this mornning but I guess my real question is - since most (not all) of those that participate on this board are pretty consciencious in breeding practices, how do we impress upon these large breeding farms to CUT IT OUT - STOP THE UNNECESSARY BREEDING, when it is still their legal right to do so?

HERE! HERE! Totally in agreement. How I do not know.

[shyrabbit]

America's first registered breed, war horse, frontier horse, movie horse, only horse to grace the cover of SI. ....

I think at least two horses have graced the cover of SI since the Lemon Drop Kid (Smarty Jones being one). But the ASB was the first!:clap:

Trivia aside- Sunridge, I'm buying what you are selling (figuratively). I totally understand having my horses burn brightly in my pasture.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I have two well bred broodmares (one of which is related through the dam's side to a recently retired, multiple division, several times world champion. However it would KILL me if one of my babies ended up in a bad situation (less than ideal trainer, slaughter, etc). I have decided I will breed only the amount of horses that I can care for assuming I own them to the day the die. This will take care of the slaughter issue. But the trainer with a questionable approach? Sure I can control which trainer I place my horses with but once they get sold you have no control.

The whole moral and ethical aspect of breeding is quite troublesome to me. I wonder if there is a place in this 'business' for breeders like me? I think the majority of owners on Trot are an inspiration. In fact, there are several of you I would give a horse to before I would sell them to certain people in this business for 6 figures. I'm just not sure there are enough of us to go around.

[katie]

Enjoying this thread ... Lots of great people chiming in on a very, very serious subject that needs to be addressed.


This is all just a bit of a ramble this mornning but I guess my real question is - since most (not all) of those that participate on this board are pretty consciencious in breeding practices, how do we impress upon these large breeding farms to CUT IT OUT - STOP THE UNNECESSARY BREEDING, when it is still their legal right to do so?

Butbutbut if they do that, then they're cutting out the minute chance of having a baby step on those green shavings! Cause if that doesn't happen, it's not worth it, right? :001_rolleyes:

As I'm driving around the area and seeing more and more babies out in the fields, I always have to wonder ... How many of these kids are going to end up in a show barn (maybe a handful), on the Free Guy's truck (twenty, maybe more?), run through Tattersalls and end up on the road (the rest of them)? I don't see the barns around here opening their doors and inviting sporthorse/alt. discipline people in. I've commented on this before, you all know how I feel. When it comes right down to it, breeding every single thing with a uterus that you can lay your hands on is no better than a puppy mill. Only, they're horses. Not puppies. The general public likes puppies a lot more than they like horses, yanno? We can't keep breeding when we don't have any place for them to go.

Those of you that breed responsibly, thank you. Thank you for not breeding more than you can handle. Those of you that breed recklessly, shame on you!

On a more exciting little note, a hunter friend of mine was at a big driving event a few weekends ago and the lone Saddlebred that was barreling through the obstacle course without batting an eye literally took her breath away. She called me in tears (happy ones) because she was completely blown away by the way this horse moved, behaved and his work ethic. She tracked him down after he was done and said that he was one of the friendliest, most polite horses she'd ever dealt with ... and she's been doing this horse thing for nearly 30 years. She has two WB prospects to sell and is doing some research into finding herself a Saddlebred for the future. Thought you all would enjoy knowing that.

[D_BaldStockings]

On a more exciting little note, a hunter friend of mine was at a big driving event a few weekends ago and the lone Saddlebred that was barreling through the obstacle course without batting an eye literally took her breath away. She called me in tears (happy ones) because she was completely blown away by the way this horse moved, behaved and his work ethic. She tracked him down after he was done and said that he was one of the friendliest, most polite horses she'd ever dealt with ... and she's been doing this horse thing for nearly 30 years. She has two WB prospects to sell and is doing some research into finding herself a Saddlebred for the future. Thought you all would enjoy knowing that.

I am thrilled to hear that!

I'd be even more thrilled if the horse was being promoted in various media to other potential SB buyers as a 'see what you're missing' promotion. Before the event, after the event and through being able to look up those show results in our own database a few months after the show.

So many don't even know the horses are out there doing it RIGHT NOW. Or who they are to send them a congratulations and an attaboy!
Who can we point to as good examples -
is this horse registered?

The Lone Ranger, Spiderman, and Batman need unmasking!

Needs to change.

[shyrabbit]

Those of you that breed responsibly, thank you. Thank you for not breeding more than you can handle. Those of you that breed recklessly, shame on you!



I'm concerned that those people in the position to breed responsibly are rethinking breeding at all given the current market. From this thread I get the sense we have already lost some of our smaller, responsible breeders. As for the other breeders, it's just too easy to 'cull the heard' through a sale or a free truck. :no: It irritates me to no end that some people can breed recklessly and allow others to deal with the ramifications without repercussions.

On an up note, I have one of my broodmares at a friends place in a pasture with her retired 1/2 WB. Now this mare is not the most refined saddlebred but next to the warmblood she looks like a deer.:D Well she loves how pretty the mare is and is now looking for a new horse and is interested in a saddlebred. I steered her to Saddlebred Rescue.

If we can get people interested in Saddlebreds just by seeing them in a pasture or being the lone ASB at a driving event then finding outlets for our breed other than the green shavings shouldn't be this hard!:hammer: If we keep insisting the only outlet for the breed is the show ring I fear the ASB will end up a foot note in Equine history.

[katie]

I'm working on finding out who this driving horse was. I know his nickname and I know an equine massage therapist that works with the driving center that put on the event. As soon as I find out more, I will definitely be posting his praises! Hunter friend also commented on how wonderful his owners were - this guy IS registered, the owners were extremely friendly and talked to my hunter friend for a while. :thumbup:

[Samigator]

just for clarification- what constitutes a large breeding program vs a small one?

[D_BaldStockings]

just for clarification- what constitutes a large breeding program vs a small one?

I don't really know at what number a breeder's program becomes large; I do know at what point it becomes risky, some would say irresponsible:
You can afford X horses and you breed X+1.

Afford includes the meaning "to successfully market", not that you personally must be able to keep the horse until it dies; that would be rather selfish and egotistical.
Getting a horse you breed into a good situation, or being responsible to (I'll use the unpopular word) destroy the unsalvageable yourself is where I am coming from.

Building a network to support your breeding program through good training, finding buyers, promoting, etc., etc. is part and parcel of that and should never be thought of as separate from it.

You can breed fantastic horses with no or bad promotion and all will wither on the vine and come to a sad end.
And breeding nice horses is quite addictive, it can take a while to notice that you have a problem, especially in changing economic times. :oops:

[snowfool]

My opinion on the definition of a large breeder is a breeder who churns out somewhere in the range of 10 to 50+ babies a year. Although any number of babies can definitely be mismanaged, 20 or more horses, which includes mares and foals, takes careful management and planning. Without a good business/marketing plan, you're a horse mill, not a respectable breeder.

[kross]

I'm going to go somewhere between Bald Stockings & Snowfool w/my answer. Instead of calling it a big breeder vs. small breeder, call it Mill Breeder because it can exist in any number.

IMO a Mill breeder is more about an attitude than a #. It's failure to recognize the economy and not adjust numbers for it. It's breeding has uterus/has penis. I think one should breed for the show ring....breeding for anything less than competition (whatever ones discipline) seems like a failure to recognize the reality of our breed--when breeding the best to the best one doesn't always get what they were breeding for...so breeding for less than the best intentionally doesn't make sense. Its a failure to look at the resulting babies and repeating crosses that didn't give you what you wanted thinking the results are going to be different.
Its a willingness to use the meat truck rather than put any effort into finding an appropriate use for the "cull" (I'm not saying the breeder has to be the one to train the horse to that use but create a market or re-home to others that will). Its not letting a baby have it's identity. Its not being able to care properly for the horses in your possession yet continue to create more. (I can remember a breeder telling me they didn't vaccinate because it cost too much...one can give their own shots...but there they were breeding more)
For me the real bottom line between a breeder and a mill is the breeder is willing to do right by the horses they create.

[silvia]

Defining what kind of breeder a person/business is still doesn't make a different to the number or quality of horses churned out. This I believe nobody can change, as it's perfectly legal to do so, there is no penalty in place from ASHA or any other body.

I would rather focus on the actual market - creating more demand, maintaining the existing market, staving off competitors for market share the Saddlebred has or should have.

Create a market and you will sell horses.

I have always angled Saddlebreds here at a bit of a niche market which happens to also be quite a big one! The casual rider who wants to enjoy trail riding, a bit of competition in ANY discipline, on a beautiful horse they can show off to their friends. These same riders also tend to not be interested in the super hot horse like a Thoroughbred, nor are they interested in dealing with the issues for example that a Standardbred might bring, in the retraining area.

How do I know? Becuase I am one of them, along with most of my friends.

A hassle free horse that is BEAUTIFUL and a pleasure to ride.

Not a great deal of other breeds fit this bill as well as a Saddlebred so this is where I pitch. Once there are numbers of good horses out there, people will notice and those owners who decide to be more competitive will find they have a bit of gold in their hands.

[RKR]

Years ago we bred for the show ring, and each foal produced was pointed that way. Marty Mueller joined us and his philosophy was allow the horse to be as good as his quality and talent will allow. THAT meant not all that we produced were even going to get a chance to be a show horse. Some made western horses, hey that's where the Shatner division started, my daughter has a western horse now. She also just sold one of her 4 yr olds to a friend and she is well on her way as a dressage horse. A look through the countryside of southern Indiana and you'll see more than a few trail horses that used to call Ruxer Farms home. Any breeding establishment that heads in only one direction will end up on a street to nowhere. You see it all the time, and unfortunatley the horses that don't make it to the show ring often are so far gone that they have difficulty being reprogrammed and it's the horse that pays the price. There still would be a place for the middle market horse , but no effort is made to bring back the leaky roof circuit, the Kiwanis shows every community had years ago, the county fairs, etc. Just think what could be done (and it's not the ASHA's responsibility)if we started B shows again.....just one at each UPHA chapter a year.....think what that could become. We have arguably the most versatile horse in the world, surely the most beautiful, yet we allow only the top to be showcased. There is only so much market for a Bentley, and you can bet they only manufacture enough to supply the given market, and you surely can't send those that don't sell to the junkyard. And one more thought that I have to share and that's the "big " breeder. I still can't define what that is....you are either successful or not. But in this particular game, if you only have one wrench in the toolbox and try only for the green shavings, you're headed for disappointment. What I would give to go back and try this breeding game again....it was a wonderful ride. RKR

[kiminky]

Bless you RKR. You and I come from a different generation of this industry, one that I long for. Those were the days. I made a living on " the ones that werent going to make it to the green shavings", funny thing is, I took a whole bunch of them and developed them on the "leaky roof" circuit and THEN they made it to the green shavings. Others became stars on the level of circuit that they were most suited for and others became "backyard" mounts. They all had value and a place in the industry. I enjoyed training every horse for every level, lots and lots of times they developed up the levels and far exceeded original expectations. There was also a very healthy, thriving market for the levels that fell "below" the green shavings. That market is fading from view and it is such a shame. I so want to see this industry come back around and I believe that by giving our horses more venues to succeed in, we broaden that market to a place where more owners and breeders feel like they "have a chance".

[D_BaldStockings]

I just have to chime in about NOT breeding, as some think might be best.

Has anyone heard of Shaker furniture? Well this was made by a Christian religious sect whose founders and members believed and practiced celibacy and had NO children. They were admired and respected by others, had a wonderful work ethic, community-centric...

and they completely died out and are no more than a footnote in US history.

We need breeders of good horses.

We must develop and expand markets and get our 'light out from under the bushel"!

[sdlbredfan]

Speaking of expanding markets, has anyone else had a chance to read the back page article by Judy Werner, in the current issue of the ASHA magazine? It sort of missed the boat. The author stated that we need more saddle seat programs, because the H/J and dressage programs are larger in number. I was amazed that it did not occur to her to say 'Let's get more Saddlebreds into H/J and dressage barns'.

That type of tunnel vision, of the Saddlebred as only a saddle seat horse is one of the big factors in the problem of dwindling market. I really appreciate the messages above from Silvia, RKR, kiminky and D Baldstockings...exactly on target on what is necessary to ensure the breed continues to be discovered by future generations.
Jeanie

[silvia]

I would agree that saddleseat programs should be expanded, as it is where a Saddlebred excels and increasing demand there can only help.

The question is WHY are there less people going saddleseat?

Is it cost?
Is it maintenance?
Is it going to another breed or discipline that is more fun and enjoyable?

[snowfool]

Speaking of expanding markets, has anyone else had a chance to read the back page article by Judy Werner, in the current issue of the ASHA magazine? It sort of missed the boat. The author stated that we need more saddle seat programs, because the H/J and dressage programs are larger in number. I was amazed that it did not occur to her to say 'Let's get more Saddlebreds into H/J and dressage barns'.

That type of tunnel vision, of the Saddlebred as only a saddle seat horse is one of the big factors in the problem of dwindling market. I really appreciate the messages above from Silvia, RKR, kiminky and D Baldstockings...exactly on target on what is necessary to ensure the breed continues to be discovered by future generations.
Jeanie

I haven't read her article yet but I think you need to better acquaint yourself with Judy Werner. She is one of the sharpest people I know involved in this breed and I can assure you she does not have tunnel vision. It's a shame her article struck you in the wrong way, but she happens to be a very forward thinking owner and breeder and I have a huge respect for her.

I'm no longer sure about the idea of "selling" our horses to the H/J/Sporthorse world - I think too many of them have tunnel vision and it's going to be a long time before they open their minds to alternative breeds of horses no matter how well suited Saddlebreds are. That's not to say that I think we shouldn't continue trying, but I think there are other venues that might be a little more open minded such as competitive trail riding, pleasure trail riding out of the show ring, and competitive driving.

I do feel that if we could revamp the Saturday night show a bit to bring it alive again, it might interest more people in taking saddle seat lessons; thus creating a need for more saddle seat instruction programs. When I was growing up, saddle seat programs were quite a bit more prevalent than they are now, but then so were the weekend shows and it seems the two sometimes go hand in hand.

RKR - I sure would like to see more of those B shows too!:yes: I never minded showing out of the trailer and can remember having so much fun at those shows. It was a big social time for most people showing and I've noticed in recent years that at a lot of A shows, the family atmosphere isn't there anymore.

[sdlbredfan]

Whatever. I have great respect for JW too, which is why I was so surprised that she did not also recommend getting Saddlebreds into the other programs. It certainly cannot hurt to have more SS programs available, but if one reads the article objectively, which pointed out the relative popularity of H/J and dresssage programs compared to SS, the logical conclusion to be drawn is to put the horses in front of the larger market.
Jeanie (I am very big on logic but I realize not everyone is that way.)
p.s. to Snowfool, your comment "I haven't read her article yet but I think you need to better acquaint yourself with Judy Werner" was totally unnecessary and inappropriate. I am well aware of who she is and what her accomplishments are. Read sentence two of the paragraph in this message again, thank you.
p.p.s. I think I figured out what is confusing people. Some people apparently do not understand that you can respect someone without agreeing with everything they say. Similarly, you can disagree with something that someone says without there being any disrespect intended. I do hope that helps those of you who have been confused about that, as it is an important concept.

[Gus0429]

Here we go again.:hammer: :hammer:

[snowfool]

Whatever. I have great respect for JW too, which is why I was so surprised that she did not also recommend getting Saddlebreds into the other programs. It certainly cannot hurt to have more SS programs available, but if one reads the article objectively, which pointed out the relative popularity of H/J and dresssage programs compared to SS, the logical conclusion to be drawn is to put the horses in front of the larger market.
Jeanie (I am very big on logic but I realize not everyone is that way.)
p.s. to Snowfool, your comment "I haven't read her article yet but I think you need to better acquaint yourself with Judy Werner" was totally unnecessary and inappropriate. I am well aware of who she is and what her accomplishments are. Read sentence two of the paragraph in this message again, thank you.

Well then you have my apologies if you feel it was inappropriate. I failed to read between the lines and see your "great respect" for her.

LOL Gus :D

[attafox]

Whatever. I have great respect for JW too, which is why I was so surprised that she did not also recommend getting Saddlebreds into the other programs. It certainly cannot hurt to have more SS programs available, but if one reads the article objectively, which pointed out the relative popularity of H/J and dresssage programs compared to SS, the logical conclusion to be drawn is to put the horses in front of the larger market.
Jeanie (I am very big on logic but I realize not everyone is that way.)
p.s. to Snowfool, your comment "I haven't read her article yet but I think you need to better acquaint yourself with Judy Werner" was totally unnecessary and inappropriate. I am well aware of who she is and what her accomplishments are. Read sentence two of the paragraph in this message again, thank you.

Jeannie -

Your purported "great respect" of Judy Werner and dissertation on her didn't come up until this post on this topic, so it would be quite logical of Snowfool to nicely point out that you might want to know more about her - since Snowfool posted chronologically before this post (which was in response to hers).

In turn, while Snowfool has graciously offered her apology for something that she could not have logically interpreted from the words as stated in your original post on Judy, I would suggest it quite appropriate for you to offer one in return.

Sorry for the intrusion folks, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[3mares]

I thought the article was great! I am in Northeast Ohio and around here, nobody even knows what saddle seat riding is. I always get asked if I ride western or english, and I usually say neither. English is often assumed as hunt seat and most people don't even know that another type exists.

I was talked in to riding saddle seat by my trainer. I had a 3 year old unbroke arab and I had never ridden. I wanted to ride hunt seat but he thought my mare would be more suited to saddle seat. I did not even know what it was and all of my friends that rode thought saddle seat was stupid. I went along with what the trainer said and she turned out to not be cut out for saddleseat. I then rode her hunt seat and did jumping with her since it was the only thing she seemed to enjoy. Two years later my trainer found me a nice saddle seat horse and I never rode hunt seat again. It just wasn't as much fun to me as riding a horse with a big trot! I still have both of these horses that I am speaking of so don't think I threw one away because a nicer one came around.

To me, saddle seat riding is WAY more fun than any other type of riding. I do have an appreciation for the other types, they just aren't my thing. I also agree that the hunter/jumper world is still too close minded to look into a saddlebred. I think more people need to know about saddle seat. There are a fair number of good saddle seat barns around here but most people I come in contact with still don't know what it is. And of course, after describing it I get the all too familiar response,"Oh, so you just ride in an arena in circles?"

By the way, I am new to saddlebreds so I don't know who Judy Werner is, but I thought it was a great article.

[attafox]

Among other things, Judy is the current President of the ASHA. She is also the owner of Redwing Farm and a prominent breeder in her own right.

Speaking to other points, she was a major driver behind the ASHA sponsoring Saddlebreds at the first Trail Symposium and Battle of the Breeds held in Santa Barbara last fall.

[ASB Stars]

Years ago we bred for the show ring, and each foal produced was pointed that way. Marty Mueller joined us and his philosophy was allow the horse to be as good as his quality and talent will allow. THAT meant not all that we produced were even going to get a chance to be a show horse. Some made western horses, hey that's where the Shatner division started, my daughter has a western horse now. She also just sold one of her 4 yr olds to a friend and she is well on her way as a dressage horse. A look through the countryside of southern Indiana and you'll see more than a few trail horses that used to call Ruxer Farms home. Any breeding establishment that heads in only one direction will end up on a street to nowhere. You see it all the time, and unfortunatley the horses that don't make it to the show ring often are so far gone that they have difficulty being reprogrammed and it's the horse that pays the price. There still would be a place for the middle market horse , but no effort is made to bring back the leaky roof circuit, the Kiwanis shows every community had years ago, the county fairs, etc. Just think what could be done (and it's not the ASHA's responsibility)if we started B shows again.....just one at each UPHA chapter a year.....think what that could become. We have arguably the most versatile horse in the world, surely the most beautiful, yet we allow only the top to be showcased. There is only so much market for a Bentley, and you can bet they only manufacture enough to supply the given market, and you surely can't send those that don't sell to the junkyard. And one more thought that I have to share and that's the "big " breeder. I still can't define what that is....you are either successful or not. But in this particular game, if you only have one wrench in the toolbox and try only for the green shavings, you're headed for disappointment. What I would give to go back and try this breeding game again....it was a wonderful ride. RKR

Bob- it is this type of experience, perception, and love of our breed that is so desperately needed at this time- more than ever before. Please keep sharing- your wisdom is a beacon- and the breeders who believe that they know it all need to take a page from the book of someone who has seen it all.:yes:

[vlayne]

I think today's culture revolves around two things:


Do It Yourself (how about all those DIY home remodeling shows on TV?)
"Natural" Living (going green, etc)


Saddle Seat does not embody either of them. It CAN, if you know what you're doing, but for most folks, it does not.

Either we have to wait for the wind to shift back to "Pay Someone for It" and/or "The Planet Will Be Fine" mentalities, which I don't forsee happening anytime soon, or we have to try to shift the reputation of Saddle Seat, either in reality or in perception.

The advancement of AOT clinics and articles is a good thing. We need more. And we need more award programs for AOTs to help encourage people to go that route (how about including AOT classes in the CH program???). We need more trainers who are willing to have horses trailer in for lessons or a tune up week of training, or have a horse board at their barn instead of only taking training horses. We need to repeal the tailset rule on pleasure horses. We need to add more "natural" divisions that have shoeing restrictions and perhaps tail restrictions (natural waterfall only, no switches, etc).

Dressage, hunt, trail - they all have their TOP level competitors. Those folks have their horses in training, pay top dollar for shows, advertise in every magazine they can - but that is not the bulk of the riders in those disciplines. The majority of the riders are average Janes (and a few Joes) who might show a few times a year at smaller, one day (probably OUTDOOR, out of their trailer) shows, ride mostly for fun and to better themselves and their horse, and simply enjoy having a HORSE.

We don't have those smaller, one day/weekend, outdoor shows anymore! All we have are the big shows and the "Olympics", and to compete there (unless you are a very talented AOT) you have to have the horse in training and spend big $$$.

Let's bring back the little shows. Let's encourage trainers to open their barns to non-training horses for lessons and clinics. Let's encourage the divisions that don't require expertise in shoeing, bitting and shackles to be competitive in. Let's entertain the notion that Saddle Seat CAN BE for EVERYONE, no matter what level.

We are an exclusionary clan and it's going to lead to our extinction. It is time to begin welcoming anyone who will have us and finding ways for them to fit in and ENJOY our seat and our breed.

[Anke]

I would agree that saddleseat programs should be expanded, as it is where a Saddlebred excels and increasing demand there can only help.

The question is WHY are there less people going saddleseat?

Is it cost?
Is it maintenance?
Is it going to another breed or discipline that is more fun and enjoyable?

- Depending on what you want to do with your Saddlebred, the cost for shoeing, other then show packages, pads, etc, should be the same as for any other breed. A keg is a keg is a keg..... and they most certainly will eat the same feed.
- Showhorses most certainly are more expensive to keep then a hunter/jumper/dressage horse because of the shoe packages, tailsets etc.
- There are problems in all breeds, but I feel (IMO) Saddleseat is outdated and for other horse folks, a rather un-natural look with tail/shoes/outfit etc. As an older person I could care less about what they say about my horse, but I can see where this does have an effect on teens and pre-teens who did not grow up in Saddleseat Land.

As for breeding; right now we are picking up the pieces from the uterus/penis 'group'. The breeder can just walk away, we are left holding the bag. There should be severe penalties dished out, not only by the Courts but also by ASHA for these folks. :hammer:

We should not stop breeding, but we need to look at what the market will bear and adjust to that market. If there is a demand for huntseat/jumping/dressage horses, we need to look into that. As it stands, most breeders breed for a showhorse, we all know the percentage of that happening....

So, you breed 50 horses and 5 of those could go to market as showhorses, what do you do with the remaining 45????
Yes, the original 'use' for the Saddlebred is the showring, but we have a treasure, an unknown treasure on our hands and even though ASHA markets the showhorse, I still believe more effort should be made promoting the other 45.....

[attafox]

-Yes, the original 'use' for the Saddlebred is the showring, but we have a treasure, an unknown treasure on our hands and even though ASHA markets the showhorse, I still believe more effort should be made promoting the other 45.....

Anke, love you dearly, but could not disagree more regarding the original use of the ASB. The horse show grew from the beauty of this breed. They were originally bred to be riding horses who were stylish and comfortable and could go for miles. They did this for over 100 years before horse shows came into play - and then they were the ones who won because they were the best riding horses.

If we could remain focused on their original purpose as the best "purpose bred" horse in the world for riding, we could solve a whole lot of problems.

BTW, RKR, I think I've cornered the market on every "Bentley" that Ruxer Farms ever produced ...

[kiminky]

Bob- it is this type of experience, perception, and love of our breed that is so desperately needed at this time- more than ever before. Please keep sharing- your wisdom is a beacon- and the breeders who believe that they know it all need to take a page from the book of someone who has seen it all.:yes:


AMEN SISTER!!!!

[sunridge]

Purpose bred for riding, is my mantra. With all the crazy 100's of miles riding I've done over the years with different saddles I've yet to have a saddle mark ANYWHERE EVER on any horse. A true "saddle" horse.Totally built for comfortable riding, (trotting) horse anyway.

[Fairfax]

Years ago we bred for the show ring, and each foal produced was pointed that way. Marty Mueller joined us and his philosophy was allow the horse to be as good as his quality and talent will allow. THAT meant not all that we produced were even going to get a chance to be a show horse.

This is very important for all of us to remember. Mr. Ruxer "bred for the show ring" (which I agree with) however..not every animal produced was suitable for it due to quality and talent. (which I agree with)

One must have a purpose for breeding. We ponder and study stallions, mares, bloodlines and produce records. We can see where some lines are consistent regarding 3G, Park, Country, Western and 5G. There have been numerous newcomers post questions on this board regarding who they should breed to and the replies are as diverse as the number of posters.

I do not "aim" for a western pleasure offspring. That does not take away from WP and it would not restrict me from showing a suitable mount in that division. I do not breed for hunter..however I have a yearling colt on the property, owned by another breeder who is the personification of that look and way of going. TB people visiting drool over him. And yet a half sister might be ideal for Park..only time will tell.

There is no insult in aiming the breeding arrow towards the stars. If it falls short..well...did it really fall short or, are one of the many other divisions more suitable. By division, that could also mean a trail horse companion.

I am not, however, going to aim my breeding arrow just for trail. I would rather produce a show suitable candidate who never sees the show ring but is a much loved companion than produce a mediocre offspring whose only possibility is that of a trail horse or lawn ornament.

Kross made it clear she is breeding for herself. Period. If, in her opinion, it is good enough for the show ring..she will get it there...but if it isn't...she is prepared to live with it or find a suitable placement. Kathleen is the ideal breeder. AND she is always marketing. She does not expect ASHA, her government, her friends, other breeders or Johnny down the block to sell her horses for her. I am always in awe of her skills in those directions. However, she is not doing anything any one of us is not capable of doing.

Leo

[ASB Stars]

This is very important for all of us to remember. Mr. Ruxer "bred for the show ring" (which I agree with) however..not every animal produced was suitable for it due to quality and talent. (which I agree with) Leo

Leo...I find your posts thoughtful, and quite charming, as a rule.

However, I am so done with people defining "quality and talent" as though only a horse who is destined for green shavings can be imbued with them. Bullhockey. Just plain :001_9898:

I know it is not your intention to be derisive, but we need, as a group, to find other ways of describing the necessary requirements for a successful SS show horse, in today's show ring paradigm. Really.

[sdlbredfan]

Snowfool, I appreciate your apology, and if I am a bit testy chalk it up to being so frequently misunderstood and so frequently having people believe the worst of me and construe anything I say in the worst possibly light. It becomes tiresome after awhile.

I am happy that others whose opinions are more easily understood/better liked have agreed with me that it would be good if everyone involved in raising or training Saddlebreds were to actively look for ways to get them into other disciplines' programs. The whole point of this message thread appears to be to do with marketing. If the buyer/market wants X you do not give them Z instead, you find a way to give them X. Along the way, they may also become interested in Z.

The tunnel vision I mentioned has been a common theme throughout this message thread, and is a view held by many, manifested by the idea that 'if it is a Saddlebred it has to be a Saddle Seat horse'. That is the point I was trying to make. Sigh. I am not sure why I bother to explain...but Vlayne's message number 128 said it much better than I apparently did or can.
Jeanie

p.s. I think I figured out what is confusing people with regard to my commenting on the article I mentioned. Some people apparently do not understand that you can respect someone without agreeing with everything they say. Similarly, you can disagree with something that someone says without there being any disrespect intended. I do hope that helps those of you who have been confused about that, as it is an important concept

[taylor]

ok , call me stupid:o but wear on the website do I put in my info for a
Saddle Seat riding program?

ps
will trina or a mod pm me I am having trouble trying to place an ad.:blush:

[ASB Stars]

I am absolutely NOT Trina, or a mod, but if you go to classifieds, at the top of the page, it will guide you through to place an advertisement.

[taylor]

I have done that and it says I need to log on, and I can't. But, I can still log on here:confused:

[SmartAlex]

The question is WHY are there less people going saddleseat?

Is it cost?
Is it maintenance?
Is it going to another breed or discipline that is more fun and enjoyable?

Speaking for myself... all three.

And some of it is the elitest attitude. When I finally threw in the towel, the last straw was people's attitudes. A few years later, I found Trot, lurked for a long time, then made frineds who made the idea of owning a Saddlebred appealing again. Honestly, this last horse I started, I actually intended to be a Saddleseat horse. He didn't want to be. Rather than trade him in, I did it his way. Now I ride a hunter. I am loving not having to worry about a tail set and a show shoe.

I'm not saying I will never have a Saddleseat horse ever again, but I am am enjoying my horses more by not trying to fit everything into that same mold.

[SmartAlex]

I think today's culture revolves around two things:


Do It Yourself (how about all those DIY home remodeling shows on TV?)
"Natural" Living (going green, etc)


Saddle Seat does not embody either of them. It CAN, if you know what you're doing, but for most folks, it does not.

This is very very true, and also plays into how I enjoy my horses these days. For instance, I have not kept a horse (of any breed or discipline) turned out in a pasture since I was 16 years old. That's getting to be a long time ago!!! :blush: This summer I am finally conditioning my horse, my mother (who boards my horse) and myself to keep my horses turned out as much as possible. It's a big adjustment. I'm having to learn to deal with dirt and flies. :cursing: But my horses are measurably happier so it's worth it.

[kiminky]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;54982]This is very important for all of us to remember. Mr. Ruxer "bred for the show ring" (which I agree with) however..not every animal produced was suitable for it due to quality and talent. (which I agree with)



Leo, You know I love ya :)
But, have you seen Star's photos of her superstar ASBs ? That IS quality and talent. You know, I sent a customer into the ring for one of the very first country pleasure classes
(The horse was braided, I wasn't paying attention :blush:) . He also trotted above level and was a powerhouse. He won. I was young and very ambitious, a win at River Ridge was a big deal. I had no thought for the fact that the country pleasure class was for the horses who didnt have a great deal of knee action (I did not say talent) and who were suitable and shod for the trails. No switches, no braids, plain shod. Those specs didnt last any longer than that first show. Unfortunately, I didn't have any more worry about the future of this breed (it was early 80's) than the man in the moon. I sure do wish we had that class back again the way it was intended to be. I have 3 quality, talented individuals that would be perfect for the division.

[snowfool]

I have done that and it says I need to log on, and I can't. But, I can still log on here

I'm pretty sure you have to create a separate login account to put an ad up. BTW - I'm not Trina or a mod either :001_cool: .

Smart Alex - I've discovered it's all in what a horse is accustomed to as to whether they enjoy a life outside. My broodmares haven't been in a stall in a long time, if ever. They accept outdoor life and live with it. Some of the young horses that are out there remember stall life and beg me to put them in a stall when the gnats get bad or we have bad weather. Then there are my hothouse flowers as I like to call them - they like to go out for a romp that lasts about 30 minutes to an hour and then the bugs and heat remind them that they have stalls with fans and nice hay to munch on, and they paw at the gate, scream at me, and pace until I show mercy on them :D . I think we humans are probably much the same - we KNOW what air condition feels like :tongue_smilie: !

sdlbredfan - sometimes it's really hard to express ourselves on these boards and we have all been guilty of coming across wrong. All's well - no hard feelings on my end :flowers: .

[kross]

In my earlier post I said competition instead of show hoping that others would understand I was talking about all disciplines. By doing this one never has a cull one only has a horse that isn't going to go the direction of the breeders main pursuit, but will excel and have the quality and athletic ability to be desirable to someone that discipline is their pursuit.
As a breeder...I have a 3yr old, I by no means consider a cull, that starts training this fall for H/J... So a couple of questions...should I have redone the cross that created her despite not getting what I actually was breeding for? She is beautiful and super athletic. She has fabulous bone, straight legs, big wide feet, drive off her hind, freedom in her shoulder, the most beautifully shaped neck (it just doesn't go up high enough and I've been around enough to know that wearing the leather isn't going to change that unless I'm into torture) and a head/eye that makes Arab people gasp.
2nd question the current ASB hunter division holds no interest to me (but she would be smoking in it) do I hurt the ASB industry, by taking her to a H/J trainer and when ready showing her on the "open" circuit.

[ASB Stars]

Find a dressage trainer. WATCH them work with young stock. When you find the right one- send your filly there. Everything begins with dressage. There are H/J trainers who use too many bad old gimmicks...really. Start with dressage- you'll get her there.:yes:

Oh, yeah...what is a cull, anyway? Nothin' you or I ever raised...

[sdlbredfan]

Thank you Susan, and right back atcha! ("sdlbredfan - sometimes it's really hard to express ourselves on these boards and we have all been guilty of coming across wrong. All's well - no hard feelings on my end "). I think I just have a really didactic way of writing that does not come across well. Those who actually know me know that my heart is in the right place, and that my intentions are always the best.
Jeanie

[kross]

No one is questioning the quality of anyone's horses here...least of all Star's horses. But she is a perfect example of breeding for the top of competition. She knows which bloodlines to use to create horses that fit not only her ideal and interests but that others will desire. Her culls are WC 3 gaited horses. Fortunately she doesn't load her culls on the truck.

This is what Leo and I are trying to say. Breed for the best...and then be a responsible person and aim that horse in the direction it was born for not throw it away because it wasn't what you were breeding for.

[kross]

Find a dressage trainer. WATCH them work with young stock. When you find the right one- send your filly there. Everything begins with dressage. There are H/J trainers who use too many bad old gimmicks...really. Start with dressage- you'll get her there.:yes:

Oh, yeah...what is a cull, anyway? Nothin' you or I ever raised...

There is no such thing as a cull. And you would love the girl that is going to be her trainer as she is a dressage person. Working w/the vet we do a lot of work at her farm and I've gotten to see her in action...and I adore her. Kind, soft, patient and I've seen her fix a lot of outlaws. (and I certainly don't envy her having to do that on those monster DB's)

[ASB Stars]

No one is questioning the quality of anyone's horses here...least of all Star's horses. But she is a perfect example of breeding for the top of competition. She knows which bloodlines to use to create horses that fit not only her ideal and interests but that others will desire. Her culls are WC 3 gaited horses. Fortunately she doesn't load her culls on the truck.

This is what Leo and I are trying to say. Breed for the best...and then be a responsible person and aim that horse in the direction it was born for not throw it away because it wasn't what you were breeding for.

Thank you, very much, really...but he was purpose bred...he was not a cull...

But a little forward headed, and he'd be a dynamite dressage horse- really!!:tt1:

[kross]

I sure do wish we had that class back again the way it was intended to be. I have 3 quality, talented individuals that would be perfect for the division.

I couldn't agree w/something more if I tried. Don't you think it is an absolute shame that the intent for so many of these classes are lost. Out here at our spring show it was shameful the blatant disregard for the rules. I thik Attafox will attest to that. Not only action devices, tail sets, but flat out ineligibilty to be in a class because of status (pros holding on to their amatuer status) Geez even the academy division.

We were able to address the academy division by creating a division for the kids not w/trainers. But what do you do about the rest?

[kross]

Thank you, very much, really...but he was purpose bred...he was not a cull...

But a little forward headed, and he'd be a dynamite dressage horse- really!!:tt1:

But its so much more fun and dramatic to pretend he was an accident.

[ASB Stars]

I am not at all sure how this can be accomplished.

The UPHA comprises the trainers, and trainers, for the most part, are the judges. They usurped the country division, and made it something it was not meant to be- but you cannot win, unless you do it their way.

The owners need to get serious. They need to support the ASHA- instead of sucking up to the trainers, and adopt a more "professional" attitude. They have allowed the trainers to dictate what wins, therefore, what has value. They dictate the value levels of the horses. They support artificially inflated values. And the owners keep buying into this- literally.

The OPs opinion of values simply supports my contention.:yes:

Wake the hell up!:hammer:

[kross]

I think part of the problem is the interdependency...we are almost incestous.

In the AZ group we have about 8 training barns 6 of them abide by the rules and get the big picture. When the 2 that don't are challenged they just take their toys (horses) and go home or won't come...which of course affects the ability of the show(s) to carry on as participation by all is required to make things work. So on one hand you would like to say good riddance because their behavior does lots to hurt the industry yet on the other you need them to keep functioning.

We have a small independent owner participation, and while I make my cracks about "its all about me" its because there is a long term plan that I believe helps the area I'm in and hopefully in the long run the entire industry, but these are "its all about me" for instant gratification. (Leo & Attafox knows a couple of the players I'm talking about and I think they would agree w/that assessment). Which renders them inconsequential.

[Fairfax]

I have enjoyed reading each and every post. Everyone is correct in what they are saying as it applies to their life and their horses. I am in awe of what ABS has produced, as pointed out to me by several readers.

I am not saying that SS is the only way. That is my focus for me, along with FH. However, I am going to want a cross country riding horse..be it western or hunt..just for my own use and enjoyment.

I miss the B & C circuits. As a child I remember spoon and egg...tandem bareback... just for the kids and the sheer enjoyment of competing along with their friends...these classes had ponies to Percherons.

I miss the family class...Dad, Mom and kids in desending order ..sometimes all the same breed and sometimes not. What a great showcase to other families sitting in the audience.

I remember Mom driving the Shetlands in FH...with a dress that covered the buggy..AND sometimes I could sit beside.

These were all breed, B & C circuit shows where we learned and honed our skills. We had several ASB breeders competing and the audience was THRILLED when they watched the parade class.

Anymore... we are showing to ourselves. We are focused on the win to the exclusion of the fun. We can have both..however again...we as individuals are going to have to step up to the plate and get involved.

I am going to the Coutts Rodeo tomorrow...it is small...about a L or M circuit (A top Z bottom lol)..and there will be a lot of youngers learning the ropes...they don't just start at the Calgary Stampede or Houston Livestock..they work their way up.

We can do the same...starter shows....intermediate.. FUN DAY shows... coaching clinics with shows after..trail rides...competitive trail rides... or..for others...they can enjoy the natural beauty and motion coupled with majesty in their pasture.

I just happen to like the show ring...KSF? I will get there when I am ready...until then...I continue to shovel the stalls and hug the babies.

Leo

[TrotAdmin]

ok , call me stupid:o but wear on the website do I put in my info for a
Saddle Seat riding program?

ps
will trina or a mod pm me I am having trouble trying to place an ad.:blush:

Taylor, ExtendedTrot.com requires a seperate login/registration. There is a button/link to register on the main page of that site.

I am traveling this weekend, but if you are still having problems when I return on Monday I will get you set up.

Thx.

[walkinghorseowner]

"The question is WHY are there less people going saddleseat?

Is it cost?
Is it maintenance?
Is it going to another breed or discipline that is more fun and enjoyable"


speaking from another breed, I have found first the western discipline is just easier for someone to climb into a western saddle and stay on, plus the built in marketing from all the old movies (that are still around), and the diversity of stuff for the younger group (barrel, shooting reining besides just stock seat )..

My exposure to hunt seat/dressage has been the fact that their marketing is so intense. Most of the people I have run into find it unacceptable to consider anything "less" than the "dressage" method of training/riding. They are highly agressive. They spend a lot of time telling people that if you do not do things a certain way,(their way) you will "hurt" the horse.

As far as saddleseat, well it really is not well promoted, and we do little to nothing to defend ourselves against the claims that "saddleseat is unnatural", or "bad" for the horse.
It all fall back to promotion and exposure. Saddleseat needs to get out in front of everyone again at open shows, with people having fun and showing how exciting it is. I just judged an open show (classes for western, gaited, , which I judged, and hunt/jump, with another judge), there were no open english "saddleseat" classes, because there was no interest. They had tried it and no one showed. The gaited classes were english or western your choice, and all but one showed western, and that one person rode hunt seat. If an open show in your area has a class for heavens sakes put something in it.
Saddleseat also again needs to be marketed as an "art" just as dressage is being marketed.

You need afterschool riding programs. Wouldn't hurt to develop "teams" for competition, between schools.

This all has been my experience and exposure on the whole to things.

[taylor]

A thought on promoting Saddle Seat maybe? Anyone within the ASB industry with a judges card or learning to judge should contact their local 4-h and/or open shows and let them know they are available.

ps on my other troubles:001_tongue: Thanks, have things figured out.

[kross]

I think your points are the best of all....

Us instructors do exist...all over the place. Most have decent size lesson programs, there are multiple pure breeds that promote the division (Arab, morgan, ASB, TWH not to mention the DHH, Hackney and Friesians) all w/their own trainers & instructors.

We all have to pay to USEF yet their promotion is aimed at the "Olympic" horses. The marketing behind western can't be touched. Then of course we have the NA phenomonon. I think not only do we have to market SS better and get it in front of people we need a competition of sorts that anyone can not only understand (the difference to the lay person between the divisions is miniscule) but something one can dream about being "famous" (come on we all wanted to be Velvet, or an Olympic rider, or Annie Oakley). We just need a SS version to capture the imagination.

[kross]

Maybe we could do a dramatic saga about a breeder who thought they sold their horse to a good home and then the "trot angels" joined forces to save it from slaughter and it goes on to be a great show horse...sort of the Godolphin Arabian tale modernized. Anyone know of any horses from the past that had such influence on the bloodlines?

[Samigator]

I think not only do we have to market SS better and get it in front of people we need a competition of sorts that anyone can not only understand (the difference to the lay person between the divisions is miniscule). . .

the difference between divisions is miniscule to me too. It's not like I've been in this breed forever, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm watching and it is awfully difficult to tell a CP class from a SP or even a park class, besides the fact that CP horses have to do a couple of extra tasks (stop and extend). Even when you throw in fine harness and 3G, okay so one is pulling a buggy and one has the mane shaved off, but there are an awful lot of pleasure horses that could probably fit into those ranks just as well as the ones who are there already. In reality, there really are not a whole lot of differences between the disciplines like it appears to be presented in the rule book.

[silvia]

One of the things I have always loved about Saddlebreds is their versatility.

Versatility has become a bit of a cheap buzz word, but truly it's a horse you can be competitive on in several disciplines at the same week. (if we are talking fun).

However I don't see where Saddle Seat slots into this. My understanding is that there are no real Saddle Seat classes/division where you can compete in Saddle Seat, and still be able to compete in Dressage, or Showjumping, or endurance.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but even the most basic division requires a longer foot, show shoe, and tail set, to get a look in. Can you realistically expect to ride a Saddle Seat class, and then do a 40km endurance ride the next weekend?

[snowfool]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but even the most basic division requires a longer foot, show shoe, and tail set, to get a look in. Can you realistically expect to ride a Saddle Seat class, and then do a 40km endurance ride the next weekend?

At one time, yes, you could have done this; but as it stands now, sadly, no - our country pleasure division has some beautiful "show" horses in it that are just that - show horses. However, those horses do get taken down plenty of times in the off season to do trail riding. But to be honest, I have never seen competitive dressage horses that could do an endurance ride either while competing in show season. Most show horses of any sort in this country don't cross over a whole lot into other categories, so it's not a Saddlebred exclusive sort of thing. The exception to that of course is combined eventing.

[Samigator]

I did take Social over some small jumps and ran him in a fun show barrels course and relay race in his show shoes. Not exactly the safest or smartest thing to do, but he survived, shoes and all. We were no champions, but versatile, yes. It's kindof like the old statement jack of all trades, master of none. . . difficult to be good at everything when many disciplines require some very different training and abilities.

You know, I saw something today that caught my attention- we were driving back from dinner and saw a huge wooden sign in a local gas station parking lot (I live in the suburbs)- the sign was for a local saddle club, and simply stated that they had a rodeo going on today. It was a simple sign transplanted from their farm, but what great marketing to get such an advertisement out into the public eye. Just think if we advertised our shows a little more. Newspapers, feed mill flyers, or even just event signage, these are pretty easy and cheap ways to spread the word, and you never know, we may get a few more spectators if we advertise a little bit. And ASB shows are actually somewhat user-friendly for lay people. Something that makes ASB shows a lot of fun are the announcers and organists- they help to explain what the goal of each class is and what gaits they are performing, set the mood and keep it entertaining- it really helps for those lay people who don't know what they're watching. so we've got that going, we just need to get people in the doors. . . and be nice to them when they come.

[walkinghorseowner]

Versatility is not all that it is cracked up to be. Even in the TWH, there are sacrifices that you have to make to train a horse to do things like barrels, etc... you do change their way of going, many times making a horse less competitive in the rail divisions, in order to gain prowess in another discipline. So you get a horse that is good at a bunch of things, but not great at any one thing. IMO too many people are "selling" the versatility idea,(and not only in horses, "jack of all trades master of none", always comes to my mind,) and we are not countering with "selling" a horse that is a specialist. You don't see a lot of plastice surgeons doing brain surgery too, and when was the last time your orthopedist did a boob job.
Sometimes you need to make speicailizing a focus. A great kids horse that is a top horse in the equitation field is to be valued, whether he can do endurance or not. The same in any other division. In the breeding shed, it follows that if you raise the bar on any one focus, then you have the trickle down theory. If everyone breeds for outstanding conformation, it should follow that the overall conformation of the breed will improve, no matter whether the horse has that extra talent that it takes to be a top 5 gaited, 3 gaited or not.

[silvia]

To provide an example, at one stage I was leasing my horse and the girl was taking him to pony club every second weekend to do ridden classes including showjumping and cross country. I was training him (road trotting) as well for the Blackwood marathon which was a 16km hilly speed run under endurance rules. He also went to a couple of day breed shows including ridden hack class and the girl took him to a handful of dressage tests. This was all within about an 8 month period. He was competitive in all classes.

Right now he is leased again and is a trail horse about 3 times a week, and I am working him improving my fitness to have a go at saddle seat.

This requirement for show shoes etc might be a sticking point for the 'one horse enthusiast' who at entry level might be interested in Saddle Seat but are unwilling to sacrifice all the other disciplines they are enjoying.

Why not saddle seat without the accoutrements? Wasn't that what pleasure was about - no tail sets, no long feet, no pads? A horse you could compete on and still be able to go out on the trail on a regular basis, or compete in other disciplines. Far more 'grass roots friendly', in my opinion.

edit: walkinghorseowner, I understand that to be competitive at higher levels requires structural specialisation. however my point is that perhaps there is no need to avoid breeding and training that caters to the majority of disciplines, and perhaps there is a need to look at grass roots saddle seat to allow entry level without penalty to owners wanting to also compete in other disciplines. Hook them by making it EASY to try saddle seat - they can always specialise later.

Do you think I came to Saddlebreds becuase I wanted to ride saddle seat? It doesn't even really exist in Australia. I have all rounders, now own several pure and partbreds, have a breeding operation, imported a Saddlebred from the USA and am even having a go at saddle seat. New blood needs to start somewhere.

Same I do now for people interested in Saddlebreds - highlight their spectacular beauty, willingness, toughness, style for ALL DISCIPLINES. And then later, they may turn to more Saddlebred specific disciplines but in the meantime they are buying a Saddlebred to do any discipline, taking market away from Thoroughbreds, Warmbloods etc that we didn't have before.

[Silly Filly]

People still come out of the woodwork to watch the TWH shows, even with all of the publicity that goes along with the breed. Most TWH horses are also shown SS. We didn't go to Germantown this year, but the stands are full of people there too. They buy box seats and sit out in the sun with all of the bugs to watch a show that goes on til almost midnight every night. Explanations?
BTW, please don't turn this into a bash-the-TWH thread, I just used them for comparison, with the tails, padded shoes, and SS.

[kross]

This requirement for show shoes etc might be a sticking point for the 'one horse enthusiast' who at entry level might be interested in Saddle Seat but are unwilling to sacrifice all the other disciplines they are enjoying.

Why not saddle seat without the accoutrements? Wasn't that what pleasure was about - no tail sets, no long feet, no pads? A horse you could compete on and still be able to go out on the trail on a regular basis, or compete in other disciplines. Far more 'grass roots friendly', in my opinion.




But SS does exist w/out all the extras...just not at the big shows. My broodmares are multi-purpose...along w/being broodmares, they taught lessons, went on trail rides and went to shows....while not rated shows still competitive ASB shows (well sometimes they were) They went w/keg shoes in front and barefoot behind and did quite well. ( I used them in EQ, country and open english pleasure classes) My one gelding did SS, western--including gaming, and huntseat incl. beginning jumps and he trail rode...he was a jack of all trades master of none but he got the kids out there (he was a rescue by the way) No one is limiting any one on their uses of their horses.

This is a question I have...Why does everyone act like there is something wrong w/going to these little unknown shows and being the "odd" person? when I first moved to PA I didn't know where any of the ASB stuff was (it turned out it was about 3 hrs away) but before I found it I had thee best time going to the littlest rinky dink shows w/a gelding I had. He was also shod in keg shoes because I loved trail riding him in the mountains (I felt like the Man From Snowy River) He was so big and beautiful and au naturale, that everyone came over to find out what he was. He was the star of every show even if I only took him w/my barrel racing friends to work him off the farm. There was no bias against our breed...everyone was breathless over him. Or maybe I just missed the bias when looking at the excitement in people's eyes that came over to talk about him.
We (my husband as it was his job to be the educator)didn't have to talk and change those that thought they knew "all about" the breed and the discipline, they found out w/living proof they had been misled.


Maybe I'm just really weird in the concept that I have fun while I make what is available to me work for what I want to do. I know I recruited quite a few students from those shows.

[walkinghorseowner]

This year the TWH instituted new rules for our "country pleasure" division. They must be keg shod (stamped manufactured shoe) and the action cannot be over 45 degrees. This is aimed at the "low maintainance" horse, that people have in the backyard.
We also have a circuit going of "fun" shows, put on by the Walking Horse Owners Assoc. Mostly pleasure classes with a few padded classes thrown in. No dressing up, just casual. A good place to take a horse and get him into the ring, or just to have some fun. These are becoming very popular with the folks and it gives people a chance to learn the ropes of showing. It is also a good outlet in to get to show without spending an arm and leg in these tough times.
Why are TWH still so popular to watch. Mainly because you may drive into a backyard one night show and get to see some of the top competitors for the WGC in many divisions.
But we too need to be careful with the limited showing. The best thing IMO that could happen is to put both breeds on a circuit together, and then get the trainers to take top horses to one night shows. You have an audience that only has to "commit" to one night. You have limited expenses for the owners and the clubs putting the shows on. And you return the idea of show horses back to the grassroots. Have good food and a good cause and you will get community support.

[ASB Stars]

Back in the heyday of the breed- which, for me, was the sixties, into the seventies, there would be a big feature in the breed magazines about the junior riders. They would be featured like debutantes- each with a photo of them that looked like the glamour shots piece of that day. A short write up about their aspiriations was attached. Some of that is still done today- but the styles have certainly changed.

This was a kinder, gentler era- going all the way back to the 40's- where the wealthy sent their kids to finishing schools, and they had those debutante balls, and so-and-so's school for girls was just something these girls went on to. That time- largely- is gone. Paris Hilton is not our ASB pin up girl!

I started riding saddle seat because my mother (my fathers farm family called her "country club Jude") started riding Saddle Seat in the mid-west. We had one of those dumb pictures of her, from College, that had appeared in the magazine- and she outlined how her riding was part of her curriculum...etc. It was just not ladylike to ride any other way!

Today, all of the baggage that is necessary to own, train, and show an American Saddlebred saddle seat horse is seen, by many, many people as just over the top. They want to be hands on, and the SS divisions- at the top- just do not work like that. It is not seen as user friendly- and we need to be sure people understand that there are other things you can do with the horses that do not require all of the accoutrements of the SS world.

If they want to try SS- fine- but we need to broaden the horizons for the horses to have greater opportunities- first, and foremost.



Times have certainly changed, and all of the

[SmartAlex]

Smart Alex - I've discovered it's all in what a horse is accustomed to as to whether they enjoy a life outside. My broodmares haven't been in a stall in a long time, if ever. They accept outdoor life and live with it.

Oh my horses are THRILLED! They come in when they want. But they're filthy.
If I don't have time to deep clean them before I ride, then I'm soaking the stuff out of the white saddle pads. Just the fall out from Grey's neck alone gets into all the nooks and crannies of my new saddle. I wear it home on my half chaps... Besides daily wipe offs, it takes me two hours each weekend just to get everything looking clean and new again. The Grey Horse? Well, he never looks clean. And don't get me started on the price of fly spray!

[snowfool]

LOL Smart Alex - I know about the dirt all too well. Our gray broodmare just loves to roll in the red clay around the lake. People have actually mistaken her for a palomino because from a distance, the red looks orangy yellow :whistling: - she looks that way almost all the time.

Walkinghorseowner - speaking of possibly combining TWH shows and ASB shows, I don't know that this will ever take place again on a big scale. Our last combined TWH/ASB show was a very successful Saturday show held at the fairgrounds of a nearby town. It was one of my favorite shows and we generally would haul the horses home after our classes were over and come back to watch the Walking Horse classes. Unfortunately, as time went by, less and less ASB people would support the show. It appears that very few people in my state want to show out of a trailer, want to be exposed to the DQP, want to travel any distance at all for a one day show in the summer, want to show their horse on less than perfect footing, and eventually ASB classes were removed from the schedule for lack of participation. I was CRUSHED to see it happen but had no control over it because it takes more than just this AOT's few horses to make it worth the while. This particular show was put on by a man who at one time managed a circuit of Saturday night shows, all with Saddlebred classes. One by one, he was forced to drop them for lack of participation (we went to almost every one of them).

While those of us here on this board would love to see the re-institution of that type show, we are sadly in the minority. Trainers here in the state were actually willing to support those shows - it was their customers who did not want to go. There seems to be a majority of exhibitors/owners now who only want to go to bonified show facilities, go in their classes as quick as possible, and then go home. I've been extremely disappointed to see this changeover in the last 25 years and I can only surmise that many of the people becoming involved in Saddlebreds these days aren't interested in anything but a quick ring ride and a ribbon.

One more thing too - in the southest there are a slew of multi-day shows to attend that are literally drowning out the small shows. I've been simply amazed at just how many multi-day shows there are and I know it's not this way in all parts of the country, but it's even been a problem a few times in scheduling multi-day shows far enough distance apart to meet USEF distance specifications for points when they occurred in the same week. With so many to pick from, the little Saturday night shows simply can't compete around here.

[sunridge]

What is wrong with "Jack of all trades master of none"? If I weren't a mechanic, electrician, cook, vet, builder, farmer, gardener, groom, stall cleaner, athlete, trainer, breeder, house maid, lumberjack, chimney sweep, wood stove operating extraordinaire I never would have been able to have my horse farm, period.

There is NO shame in the ability to do multiple things, quite the opposite actually. Apparently it is extraordinary.

[Fairfax]

Snowfool...we have also had the same problem both in horses and dogs.

Dog shows used to be benched, which ment the dog had to stay at its grooming set up area for the day of the show. Many newcomers, just wanting to learn about breeds, we confused as they would come in the afternoon and not realize their favourite breed was on at ten a.m. and were now gone.

Sales dropped..Interest has dropped. There is now talk about partial bench shows... Here, in Canada...most shows are three days long..different judges each day and at the same location. This has been presented...if you are entered for a specific day..you must be there by the start of the show..to the end each day EXCEPT the last day when you can leave after your final class.

These is needed for spectators.

Horse shows, while structured differently, need to create a win win environment for trainers, owners , riders AND spectators.

We are now seeing a drop in sales in most breeds due to our ignoring the paying public and potential new owners. Shows need to pack the stands and no.,... it is not as difficult as one might imagine. There are proven techniques, as presented by Spruce Meadows, that have taken an attendance from 2500 to over 100,000 PER SHOW ...

Again..it is not up to the registry..they should make available, pamphlets or information packs for shows to order (in my case, when I had so many hits from an article on my B & B and horses in the Chicago newspaper...ASHA kindly sent me ASB material to mail out with each inquiry).

It is up to breeders, trainers, owners, show committee's etc to market their breed and their facility.

Mary...of course an ASB can do multiple activities, however each one takes time and precision. A young woman, going after the Ms Universe crown down not train the same way a young woman training for the olympics in pole valt, down hill skiing, basketball etc. Each requires different skills and techniques. That isn't to say they can not do anything else..but it they are going to win or even partake at a high level..they must be trained with focus.

Sometimes we try and put our multi tasking personal traits onto our horses.

I would not want, nor expect, a FH prospect to be saddled up and casually go on a trail ride. AFTER its show ring experience is over...sure...why not...but not during.... They, like athletes in any sport need their edge in order to peak at a specific time.

Specialization doesn't mean inability.

Is the show ring the ultimate goal? For many breeders and owners...absolutely..nothing wrong with that. It is, however, not the ONLY goal..that is up to the owner to decide. In your case..you quit breeding and you are riding and just enjoying your horses. This is excellent...May you have many years of enjoyment and succeess...the same with for ABS and Kross..in their pursuits.

Leo

[Fairfax]

Mary...master of none? No thanks.. I would hate to have my doctor tell me he graduated at the bottom of his class, but at least he can kinda do the operation..but do I need my living room rewired and my hedge trimmed because he can kinda do that too

Leo

[walkinghorseowner]

If ASB ares like TWH we have most owner just looking for a quick outlet for their competitive energies. A "hobby" only that requires limited input, commitment and exertion. We are dealing with the instant gratification generation. Then you have the hard core, dedicated exhibitors and BREEDERS. IMO much of the work that needs to be done to make a breed thrive must occur with those type owners and breedeers working together. It is documented that most people only stay in a hobby 5-7 years, horse ownership included. We have discussed in our breed the necessity to have a place where the non world champion contender can show and have FUN. This is the foundation of the breed and the showring. Those folks who may never own a big contender but love to show. Those are the people that will still be there when the million dollar flash in the pan spender has shot his wad and decided to get out and buy a boat.
Another thing we have run into IMO is the too sucessful, too soon. Possibly in my breed more than any other. We can actually take a person who has never ridden, and put 8 weeks into teaching them to sit on a horse, find the right horse and that person can actually win a WC. All it takes is enough money. Many times this produces the been there done that syndrome and out they go in a few years. We need to "sell the challenge", not the blue ribbon.

[kross]

We have discussed in our breed the necessity to have a place where the non world champion contender can show and have FUN. This is the foundation of the breed and the showring. Those folks who may never own a big contender but love to show..

But this exists its just not breed specific. Why do we have to have ASB only shows (or any breed for that matter) If you are into gaming on your horse what is wrong w/taking that horse to gaming events? We are not going to get people into believing our horses can do these things if we aren't at the venues that are meant for these activities. We all know our horses can do anything we want them to do, we don't prove it by showing to ourselves.

We need to "sell the challenge", not the blue ribbon...

This is an absolutely beautiful statement.

[3mares]

I also agree with walkinghorseowner's comment, " we need to sell the challenge, not the blue ribbon". My husband recently expressed a small interest in learning to ride so I took him for lessons. He took a total of two lessons. After each one he commented on how hard it was and that he felt like a mess up there. He also asked me how long it takes to actually get the hang of all of it. After I told him that I spent several years taking lessons, multiple times a week, back to back on different horses, he no longer had an interest. He is of the "instant gratification" generation as he is a few years younger than me.

I have also seen the same things walkinghorseowner commented on, the customer basically shows up, gets on horse and goes in ring and wins. A lot of these riders have only learned enough to get by with no real effort being put out, just money.

I remember my first blue ribbon that I got. I had a terrible ride but I won. I hardly even count it as a win in my mind. It was the next one that was my real first blue ribbon. I had a nice ride and deserved it. The first one, it was just I had the nicer horse, we both had terrible rides. And, it doesn't mean much to me to win that way. I want to win because I deserved to win. I am of the hard-core, dedicated group that was mentioned. I spent my morning brushing my horses, working them, dragging my arena, cleaning water buckets, feeding, cleaning stalls(several times already today), etc. I was in my glory! Sadly, it seems like the hard core, dedicated group is getting smaller and smaller. I see most people wanting the "hobby that requires limited input."

[sunridge]

Mary...master of none? No thanks.. I would hate to have my doctor tell me he graduated at the bottom of his class, but at least he can kinda do the operation..but do I need my living room rewired and my hedge trimmed because he can kinda do that too

Leo

Alas those are the doctors available to me. And usually you can't even see a specialist without a referral. Try to get an appointment with Mayo without. Fresh in mind as DH tried last week.

Well, however it turns out with the industry, hobbyist's that enjoy quality animals without the "show" as a means to an end, will more than likely continue to enjoy horses as the show ring runs amok. So far everyone I know involved in horses the past 20 years or so, are still involved.

I just met a Senior cousin of DH's by accident, as he was driving his CDE Morgan's. He invited us to bring my former FH stallion over to teach ALL of us, horse, husband and myself. They even have a few competitions within 30 minutes of my home!

So yeah " master of none" really is limiting.

[silvia]

Well Fairfax, if master of none is not your thing, all well to you :)

Personally I am really enjoying having about 90% new non-Saddlebred customers knocking on the door wanting to buy or breed Saddlebred/half Saddlebred. This is our first official season, in the middle of a depression, and we just can't handle the enquiries. I have requests to agist, train, breed coming out of my ears - no joke.

We don't have Saddle Seat here. These customers are looking for an all rounder and they can't go past the Saddlebred and it's great looks and presence. They don't WANT to compete to an elite level. Many of them don't have the time - family, kids, work.

My question is, how good would it be if you knew, as a breeder or trainer, that you could have a great market banging on your door wanting to buy those Saddlebreds that aren't going to make it as a top show horse? That you had this market and so didn't need to worry about the top 5% making all the money to cover the expense of breeding/training/disposing of the rest?

[rhettdgn]

Silvia-

That's sounds great to me!!!! Looks like we have to work on getting MORE ASB's out there to you!!!

[jslilley]

Silvia-

That's sounds great to me!!!! Looks like we have to work on getting MORE ASB's out there to you!!!

I'll ride over with them!

I, too, am a firm believer that while many breeders will always strive for something to go on the green shavings or other great show venues, we need to promote ALL aspects of the breed and overcome the stereotype that goes with the peacock so there are places for the ones that don't make it. My husband's horse is wonderful (that's him in the middle of the river in the most recent ASHA magazine trail article), but would have never made it as a show horse. I hear people all the time talk about the expense of owning and maintaining a show ASB and watch non-ASB people cringe. I couldn't afford one good shoeing, let alone the training and show bill. For one show, it was over $175 for one class - and that is just to the show office. And if you bomb that class you are done. Sorry - I want to go have fun and show in several classes on the same horse. I can do that at open local shows and gas and all won't cost me what one class would. I'm going to have more fun at the open show (unless I have a great horse which at the moment is out of my budget) and my horse can still be kept at my house. This breed can and does do that. I'm not saying breed for it - I'm saying know and promote that it can. There will be plenty of "rejects" to fill the need.

On that subject, as was pointed out earlier, not everything with a uterus or testicles should be reproducing (2- or 4- legged). It kills me to hear someone say, "Well, she won't wear leather (ie - she was too crazy to keep a leg over her), so let's breed her. Yeah - that is what I want. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And unless injured young, it kills me at the number of stallions breeding that have never seen a show ring or even been broke. But they are pretty. Again - sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I would rather have a little proof in the pudding before I let it run rampant in the gene pool. I have seen some that did some test breedings to limited mares to see what would be produced, and feel that is a more responsible than just breeding to anyone, but still...

I remember when I was with a humane society in my home state, there was the statistic that if no more cats or dogs were produced for 5 years, there would still be plenty. Luckily, they are cheaper to keep that long than a horse. I know broodmares are a waste to some if they aren't producing, but that is why I firmly believe every horse (again, unless injured young) deserves to see some saddle time. That way they can find another sport such as trail or lesson horse if the breeder needs to ease up on what they are putting on the ground but hate to see a horse just stand around. This breed, as a whole, is too smart to forget much of what it is taught. And a horse that could be trail ridden or in a lesson program could be leased out for a year or two if the breeder just wants to take a break.

I love the breed. It's where I want to be. Don't get me wrong - I have a great Arabian that I will not part with until God says it is time, but he is an exception, not the rule there. I have come across very few ASBs that didn't have a personality that spoke loudly and I love that about them. And this is from a person that has never ridden one in the show ring but would love to some day. But I also want to ride one down the trail and have people gawk and stare and ask, what is that? And the following "You're kidding! A Saddlebred is that level-headed?"

(Putting soap box away)

[D_BaldStockings]

Well Fairfax, if master of none is not your thing, all well to you :)

Personally I am really enjoying having about 90% new non-Saddlebred customers knocking on the door wanting to buy or breed Saddlebred/half Saddlebred. This is our first official season, in the middle of a depression, and we just can't handle the enquiries. I have requests to agist, train, breed coming out of my ears - no joke.

We don't have Saddle Seat here. These customers are looking for an all rounder and they can't go past the Saddlebred and it's great looks and presence. They don't WANT to compete to an elite level. Many of them don't have the time - family, kids, work.

My question is, how good would it be if you knew, as a breeder or trainer, that you could have a great market banging on your door wanting to buy those Saddlebreds that aren't going to make it as a top show horse? That you had this market and so didn't need to worry about the top 5% making all the money to cover the expense of breeding/training/disposing of the rest?


This is the advantage the non-North Americans have in marketing the breed- they can say it’s a great HORSE for whatever you want to do and be believed.

To me, here is the important thing about the Saddlebred: it has the basic physical and mental attributes to enable it to rise to the level of it’s rider/trainer in most disciplines.

There are mighty few Masters of all trades out there, some Masters of several trades and more Masters of one trade –I’m talking owners, here. Masters find that carefully selected for the job Saddlebreds do very well for them in individual fields: Saddleseat show horse, Jumping, Endurance, Dressage, Parade, Film Acting, Ranch Work to mention a few.

There are many more jack of all trades, medium scale type riders, and for them a Saddlebred is the surprise answer to their dreams:
The horse tries to do what is asked with incredible work ethic,
remembers the lessons,
has no in-born physical challenges doing most things asked of it,
is often successful at the rider’s level (whatever it is)
and looks good doing the job at hand.

It’s not such a bad life for a horse.
The problem marketing-wise comes in when you showcase only the ‘virtuoso ballerina’ horse and try using that image to sell the other lights to people wanting to play ‘mud volleyball’ or ‘breakdance’: they simply cannot envision the possibility of the horse getting down and dirty as they can a QH for example.


I don’t think breeders need to change their breeding goals so much if at all. The marketing presence is what has to expand and get more inclusive and more aggressive.

Each of us needs to be proactive and positive about our breed in our own way and about our support for the breed, without stomping on each other individually because we wear different hats.

The lead dog may be indispensable to the team, but it is the team that moves the sled and saves the lead dog if he steps into a crevasse: no one of us can do it alone or in opposition to each other. Teams only work when they work together, are headed the right direction, and everybody gets fed!

[kross]

There is a huge misinterpretation of jack of all trades going on here. And to make it a really simple explanation....

You are not going to go to Helen Crabtree to be a cutting horse rider, Sally Swift to be a SS rider or Monty Roberts to be a dressage rider. They are masters in their disciplines because they are focused on their disciplines....while there is no doubt in my mind that could get anyone started correctly w/good horsemanship if they had a client that wanted to do a different discipline than what they offered I'm sure they would refer them on.

Whatever one's goals are for a horse, no matter the discipline or the level, that horse's entire life is going to be structured for that goal. Including simply enjoying looking at them.

[vlayne]

Wait a minute here....

Can one of you "jack of all trades" proponents please find me a few examples of non Saddlebreds competing at the top levels of their discipline, be it Dressage, show jumping, endurance, whatever, that also excels at a high level at something ELSE?

Do Olympic Dressage horses spend a lot of time doing serious trail riding that I'm not aware of? Or running barrels? Driving through cones courses?

What about reiners?

Show jumpers?

Endurance horses?

No, no, no and no? Hmmmm...

So if OTHER horses of other breeds and other disciplines are not expected to do whatever their owner feels like doing when they wake up that morning, why should a show Saddlebred???

Sure, our show horses might go on the occassional trail ride, might learn how to sidepass or jump a log here or there in the off season - but in their everyday training regimine they do not. Nor do other show horses, of any discipline. Someone's backyard "fun" horse? Sure! But not an athlete that is expected to be at the top of their game day in and day out. I would never expect Kobe Bryant to be the USA National Soccer team's goalie, the Superbowl MVP quarterback and an Olympic contender on the parallel bars in men's gymnastics... he might have the talent to have been world class at any one of those things should he have chosen to pursue them, but once he made the choice of basketball, he had to specialize.

Each HORSE does not need to be versatile. That does not prove anything.

Now, as a BREED (not on an individual horse basis), YES Saddlebreds can be versatile. One horse can excel at CDE while his full sister can be a Louisville gaited horse, and their brother could be toting kids around in the academy program. THAT is the versatility of the BREED.

That very versatility is what is killing us - we have such a large diversity of "types," regardless of bloodlines, that breeders going for the big stake horse are bound to be disppointed more than not!

As a breed, the Saddlebred is perhaps one of the MOST versatile out there. Unfortunately, the powers that be do not see fit to market, and REWARD, that unique feature of our horse.

[silvia]

How many people are in the market for an all-rounder, vs an elite, top of the range competing horse?

Why can't a show saddle seat Saddlebred at a lower level, also be able to compete in multiple discplines?

This gets done every day with for example a dressage horse at a lower level, that is also taken out for eventing and hacking. I'm not talking popping over the odd log, but in an event with placings and a ribbon.

[vlayne]

How many people are in the market for an all-rounder, vs an elite, top of the range competing horse?

Why can't a show saddle seat Saddlebred at a lower level, also be able to compete in multiple discplines?

This gets done every day with for example a dressage horse at a lower level, that is also taken out for eventing and hacking. I'm not talking popping over the odd log, but in an event with placings and a ribbon.

Absolutely! I know of many who do, and are good at that level. If they specialized, they might be better at ONE thing, but the owner is happiest doing what they are doing. And that is the kind of owner we need to attract more of.

[jslilley]

Silvia hit the nail on the head and I think vlayne is agreeing - we need to be able to draw more average people into this wonderful breed so they can see it for it's wonder. And while we need more people coming in and working their way to the top to help the upper market, the lower market is flooded with unwanted horses b/c everyone in the breed with room for one has one and those outside the breed don't understand that it is a great trail horse, play horse, etc. Yes, I am one of those people that wants a horse I can ride down the trail today and maybe take to an open show this weekend and still have a nice looking horse to compete on. My 23 yr old Arab did limited distance riding with me and I think we threw in about 3 open shows while he was competing in endurance one year. That's my kind of horse. I have friends that I am slowly turning to ASBs b/c they realize the breed isn't crazy as they often thought from watching it in the showring and they are replacing their QHs trail horses with them. Again, I'm not saying breed for it - but make sure to develop the market because it is going to be there. The filly I rescued out of the sale this weekend is bred very well - I paid $200 for her. Her problem? She didn't want to go foward in the lines. No one ever put a leg over her or tried a different training method. That type of tunnel vision is what makes me mad! But her new mom is going to give her another shake and really wanted her for her breeding (she has grandma).

[sunridge]

I think we are all saying the same thing. I don't want to show, there are thousands of horse owners who don't. I can attend open shows locally. In one week-end, I trail rode on Friday, did games on Saturday and showed English Pleasure on Sunday all on a 17 hand breed show quality Saddlebred. We had a blast. Received tons of positive comments and laughs. And stuck out like a sore thumb.

Now wouldn't it be great if I could pull this same horse from the field and go to a breed show and show country pleasure, in my 30 year old custom made Saddle Suit that my dad bought for me and bridle that was used on my show mare when I was 17. Mare that was an sister to my geldings dam no less. Again I would stick out like a sore thumb but not in a good way. There would be no tail set, no clipping inside the ears, (the gnats are fierce here). Just a nice horse and an old not so great rider anymore.

At one time I really dreamed this could be done with no embarrassment to myself. The fun ultimate horse.

[Samigator]

Now wouldn't it be great if I could pull this same horse from the field and go to a breed show and show country pleasure, in my 30 year old custom made Saddle Suit that my dad bought for me and bridle that was used on my show mare when I was 17. Mare that was an sister to my geldings dam no less. Again I would stick out like a sore thumb but not in a good way. There would be no tail set, no clipping inside the ears, (the gnats are fierce here). Just a nice horse and an old not so great rider anymore.

At one time I really dreamed this could be done with no embarrassment to myself. The fun ultimate horse.

I'm totally with ya. I thought that's what CP was supposed to be about. . . a horse that could function as a trail horse? Maybe our problem is that we have too many nice show horses- too many nice horses who say, hey, the rules don't say I CAN'T show in this division and since my horse flat walks and stands, what the heck? As I said earlier, a lot of the CP horses I see could EASILY fit into SP, park, or even 3G. I would think people would be up for the challenge of competing in those higher divisions if they had the horse for it, but maybe they're not. That's why CP (which I would assume would be the reasonable division for beginners and AOTs to try to break into the breed game in) is also the most competitive division we have. . . it's mindboggling. I do kinda like the TWH ideas on limiting the divisions- maybe not limiting to a 45 degree knee motion level, but I like the shoeing restrictions- they are a LOT more strict than ours currently are.

[ASB Stars]

The western, and hunt, country pleasure divisions can still accomplish this, I believe, even at the highest levels. The Saddle Seat version, at the highest levels- no so much!

I was a training barn some years back, and they were working a horse. I thought the horses was amazing- trotting way over level, and only wearing a plate. Then I was told that he had been the WC Country Pleasure horse. Oh, man...:mad:

I have a mare who had done nothing but dressage-ever- and hadn't been worked in a couple of years, that I pulled out of the field, rode for a few weeks, and then, took her to Devon in the first Hunter Country Pleasure division held there. It was also her first show. She was Reserve Champion. She sure took care of my sorry butt!:angel:

[SmartAlex]

I'm with you Mary. THAT is exactly what I want too. However, we are losing those shows. I am so so lucky to have a County Fair 40 minutes from here which caters to ASB, Morgan and Arab where I can do just that. Even Saddleseat, and qualify for St. Louis. Stalls are reasonable. Facility is really good. That is the one and only show I go to, and the years I don't go, I sponsor classes. The show is always well supported, but it is the last of a dying breed in my area.

[kross]

I'm going to try it again.

Overall the focus of All training barns of ALL breeds and ALL disciplines is the show ring. Training barns are what bring people into the horse industry, whatever they offer to their clientele particularily those that are entering the horse world for the first time is in all probabality what that person is going to do for their horse pursuits. So if in the ASB world the majority of trainers are SS what do you think they are going to push their clientele to?

While I am capable of teaching a person a solid foundation I am not capable to take them to advanced levels of the other disciplines, I take them as far as I can and then I have to refer them on if their true desire is an other discipline. Since there are no hunter/jumper, dressage (other than Stars), or reining barns whose sole breed is ASB while focusing on those disciplines it is very unlikely that the horse they will eventually own is an ASB. They will purchase the horse the trainer is recommending. If their goal is not the show ring and they want a horse that they can have fun w/going to small shows, trail riding, etc. its a no brainer and eventually they have an ASB in their backyard.

So while the breed is very versatile, those that have the most affect aren't. The assoc. can spend money all day long promoting the versatility of the breed, but if a dressage person shows up at an ASB barn anywhere other than Star's, they are going to be referred on. Not because the trainer doesn't want the potential income or to sell them an ASB but because that is not their skill. Criticising them for focusing on their skill & interest is o.k., why?

What does it take to change?
From this topic I see 2 things... breeders need to find an appropriate direction for every foal they produce (and yes it is their responsibility since they chose to create it) other than the road or slaughter truck.
Those that choose a different pursuit w/their ASB need to stop criticizing the SS discipline. No one is negating your pursuits, why do you want to tear down someone else's? And then get out there and enjoy your horse in whatever manner you choose. Living proof is the best advertisement that this breed can excel in a variety of fields. No amount of print advertising is going to convince people that an ASB is great for their pursuits until they see the horses time after time at the heights of that discipline.

[SmartAlex]

Those that choose a different pursuit w/their ASB need to stop criticizing the SS discipline. No one is negating your pursuits, why do you want to tear down someone else's?

I haven't seen much criticizing going on in the last couple of pages. I love Saddleseat. I want to show Saddleseat. With my personal pleasure horse. In a breed show. So, when the Pleasure Assoc develops a division for me, could the BNT types with the cut/set tails, the super charged engines and the highly skilled farriers, please stay out of it? :001_cool: Certainly there are already enough divisions to fairly distribute everyone.

[rhettdgn]

Sounds like there are sooo many people that desire a "true pleasure" class distinction so you could just take your at home dude to a horse show without the influx of set tails, professionally trained horses and can even keep a bit of fuzz in the ears........

Now wouldn't that be a fun thing to have included?

I did think that the country pleasure division was initially created for this purpose, but has developed into something else.

Maybe the creation of a full-blown amateur division that keeps the trainers and all out of it totally should be devised....How about family pleasure or true pleasure......with no distinction to seat (?)

I wish we still had the little "B" shows here too. I remember the days going to a show and showing in three different classes: Equiation, then pleasure and trail (with obstacles). Whoever accumulated the most points over all from the three classes was deemed the champion of the division. It was soo much fun as a kid.....I had a gelding that wouldn't back more than 4 steps!!.....not soo much fun trying to back up between the poles!!! But I would do the bareback jumping with him and he was like a deer!!! He made up for his one little flaw!!

It looks like everyone really desires a more "user friendly" horse with "user friendly" divisions in which to place them in.

If only things were different, but they can be.......It just needs to be worked on!!!

[Fairfax]

Perhaps it could be presented at the next conference regarding a "family" class EP and WP. This would showcase a clean and groomed individual, however shoeing would be restricted to a flat plate no cut tail no balding etc. No trainers allowed at ring side (this is a passionate point with me anyway...with all of the trainers screaming out instructions and banging on the sides of the ring) and it would give the non competative show person an opportunity to attend and participate.

To think the breed association should support a bunch of classes for "from the pasture to the ring" would be folly..that should never occur...a show ring is for the peacock in its division..but this could be a non pointed fun type class...still judged.. and ribbons presented, and it might encourage some more entries from those who own, but board at home, in a pasture etc.

I am willing to bet that if ASHA creates a division like this and shows make it available..they will not get many entries and there will be more excuses as to why no one is entering...i.e. lack of points...no appreciation.....but maybe they should try .

I expect those, who post on this board that they do not or will not show under current conditions, also won't show under different conditions.

The Arabian Horse Association tried to be everything to everyone and now they are a dysfunctional group and no one is happy... and yet..everyone wants more recognition.

Maybe it is just a cultural thing...kids run in races that no one wins, teams play sports where everyone is a winner (whiner??) and maybe horseshows are going to be next...where participation is more important than performance.

I hope not...kind of defeats the word SHOW..

Leo

[Silly Filly]

For all of you wanting CP classes that keep the professionally trained horses out, why not go in the AOT classes at the breed shows? I don't think I've ever seen more than 3 in those classes around here, and most of the time they don't have any entries.
The 2 shows we go to in Morristown TN have Natural CP classes. Nobody much shows in those classes either. Perhaps we should re-visit my favorite name for this new division....Way out in the country pleasure. No haircuts, no handmade shoes, no stall, etc.

[snowfool]

While I would love to see tail sets completely abolished from the pleasure ranks (excepting Park Pleasure of course), there will always be ASB's that drop down in ranks and still carry their tails well. There is no true way to distinguish whether they're wearing a set at home or if they simply have a beautifully held tail as a carry over from their set tail days. Also, to try and bar Saddlebreds with cut tails is not going to work - many ASB's that have had their tails cut in years past should not be descriminated against as some of those tails go back into a very natural stance. I've had a few horses that gave the appearance of being uncut, but were in fact, cut, and all you needed to do was lift the tail and see the slight bumps from where the tendons healed - plus their tail was more limber. I really believe the only way to ever have a fair and natural class is to go back to barring tail sets on pleasure horses at ALL shows - who knows when that will occur, if ever.

I understand that some of you wish you didn't have to have a show horse "all dressed up" to show, but when have we ever seen a pleasure rail class of any sort, hunter, western, open English, or whathaveyou, that supported a totally natural look? In hunter rail classes, they are braided - both manes and tails. In QH/Paint western rail classes, they are banded and unfortunately for many, tails are blocked. It seems to me that what some of you are desiring has never existed anywhere, with any breed. Clue me in if you have seen this sort of natural class you're referring to - I've not seen one. I do recall one class category that used to be put in years ago called the Go as You Please class. However, that really referred more to your riding discipline more than anything else.

It sounds like what some of you want is a class where clipping is minimal, if any; shoeing is optional; and dress code is less than exemplary; where a Saddlebred better not enter if he has too much NATURAL elevation to his trot for fear of knocking a lesser trotting Saddlebred out of the ribbons, or where a Saddlebred better not hold it's head too high for fear of making a lower head set horse look like a dog. Forgive me for not comprehending what it is you're seeking here but I really don't understand. To me a show horse should at least look like a quality horse with some sort of dress-up code to it.

SF - we posted at the same time - that way out in the country theme is sort of what I had pictured too.

[kross]

I haven't seen much criticizing going on in the last couple of pages. I love Saddleseat. I want to show Saddleseat. With my personal pleasure horse. In a breed show. So, when the Pleasure Assoc develops a division for me, could the BNT types with the cut/set tails, the super charged engines and the highly skilled farriers, please stay out of it? :001_cool: Certainly there are already enough divisions to fairly distribute everyone.

It isn't about the last couple of pages...it is an overall attitude expressed by many no matter their breed regarding SS.

I think if you live in area that could support such a class, you should get involved w/the state chapter, along w/writing the class specs write who can participate. And then it is the groups responsibility to make sure the intent of the class is followed. If the class shows great success it won't be long before other chapters are following suit. Call it monkey see monkey do, but go back to my post that says "your assoc. is only going to offer what it's local membership is supporting, by their particpation beyond just showing up for the show"

We needed an academy division for start up kids for AOT parents out here. The intent was so these kids had a place to get their feet wet, the parents wouldn't have all the expense (just like reg academy) and to keep the playing field level whether it was the difference between professionally trained kids to parents doing the training and/or the difference between using a horse that had to go in the ring a million times and the horse that only had to make one appearance. By the way it was the trainers that made the call for such a class.

So it can be done.

[sdlbredfan]

Yikes, I agree on the tunnel vision thing (plus a large dash of stupidity on the part of whoever was allegedly training the filly), on what Jslilley said, the "The filly I rescued out of the sale this weekend is bred very well - I paid $200 for her. Her problem? She didn't want to go foward in the lines. No one ever put a leg over her or tried a different training method. That type of tunnel vision is what makes me mad! But her new mom is going to give her another shake and really wanted her for her breeding (she has grandma)."

[SmartAlex]

I don't know that we really need more divisions. The AOTR is a good distinction, and I would certainly show in such a class if I were to encounter it. The CP division was popular around here (with AOTR participants) even before it filled with trainer horses. Most of the AOTR people have either gotten better or just given up entirely because they were out classed. Between the AOTR classes, and the hunt seat division, I've managed to stay involved at a reasonable level.

I'm certainly not against trainer horses being in CP. If I need help, I go to a trainer. AOTR vs. regular CP takes care of that issue.

Also, I have never in my life cleaned out the ear on a horse, and I rarely use hoof polish. You can still be very well turned out without doing things like that. It is possible to keep a horse on partial pasture turnout, and still groom them like a show horse. It just takes 5 times as much work at home :o

And I'm certainly not against nice, naturally talented and well trained saddle horses in the division. Particularly when you know the owner keeps them at home and hacks around the fields. What really ruins the whole Country Pleasure atmosphere for me is when you get some spaz-o dropped down park horse with 6 inch toes in there with a catch rider, or a trainers child disrupting everything just trying to get a better placing. It happens. We've all seen it.

[SmartAlex]

The 2 shows we go to in Morristown TN have Natural CP classes. Nobody much shows in those classes either. Perhaps we should re-visit my favorite name for this new division....Way out in the country pleasure. No haircuts, no handmade shoes, no stall, etc.

I'd call it the Country Bumpkin class! I have a couple at home that would fit right in, and I'm sure I have a suit for it :D The coat is plaid and it fits me like :censored: Sometimes I end up turned out for that class and I don't even realise it's happening :yes:

[tommygrl]

It isn't about the last couple of pages...it is an overall attitude expressed by many no matter their breed regarding SS.

We needed an academy division for start up kids for AOT parents out here. The intent was so these kids had a place to get their feet wet, the parents wouldn't have all the expense (just like reg academy) and to keep the playing field level whether it was the difference between professionally trained kids to parents doing the training and/or the difference between using a horse that had to go in the ring a million times and the horse that only had to make one appearance. By the way it was the trainers that made the call for such a class.

So it can be done.
I have had small comments, hesitated to write, & then someone else said it for me, and said it better, so now to quickly jump in:
Saddle seat is not just for a very high headed horse; it is collect through to a light front end, no matter how high, or not, the horses can could go, etc. The saddle is flat, a Lane Fox.
SS is not cruel or unnatural, but just fine for horses and useful to riders. SS riders have been sold a bad rep. I & others ride SS for different activities.

In any competition, the JUDGE is trend-setting. In shows, it is the JUDGE who sets what is bred, what continues to be shown and trained. Judges should consider the performance and execution of whatever is required, not the cut tail or trimed ears except where required in the higher levels of showing. The judges of shows played a big part in the situation discussed here.
I do not understand the mandate against a set-looking, high tail, or in pleasure classes, the need for them. One lesson here is to choose judges wisely.

[ASB Stars]

Well, my first experiences showing horses came in the American Saddlebred Saddle Seat world- so, my hunters and dressage horses have always been turned out in that tradition.

There is no reason to have less quality in your presentation, just because you are not having someone else do it. That is one of the falacies that keeps people believing that they cannot show without a trainer- you can, but you have to work at it.:yes:

[Samigator]

For all of you wanting CP classes that keep the professionally trained horses out, why not go in the AOT classes at the breed shows? I don't think I've ever seen more than 3 in those classes around here, and most of the time they don't have any entries.
The 2 shows we go to in Morristown TN have Natural CP classes. Nobody much shows in those classes either. Perhaps we should re-visit my favorite name for this new division....Way out in the country pleasure. No haircuts, no handmade shoes, no stall, etc.

It would be nice if we had some of those classes. . . I just looked at the show bill for mid-summerfest, what is seeming to be a huge B show out here this year being that it's combined with the MN WH Celebration, and there are 2 amateur classes in the ASB divisions, just two. And want to guess what they are? 5 gaited, and park pleasure. I have also seen a fair number or Amateur 3G classes at other shows. Okay, so why not have Amateur CP (open to hunt or SS)? an amateur western class? etc. . . maybe you have to sponsor such a class to get it added, but I have no idea how to go about that. I would think the amateur 3G class is probably not the type of class that would appeal to most AOTs. It's awful hard to keep that quality and condition in an animal kept at home, trained by yourself. . .

I love the "way out in the country pleasure" name. lol But really, I think most amateurs or people who want to show in this class could turn out some pretty decent looking horses, despite what it might sound like. Look at Grey, Brita's horse, he cleans up pretty darn nice for a keep at home AOT horse. . . I'm not advocating that we start a show division for sloppy, raggedy models of ASBs that should not be show horses, but there has got to be a way to make it more doable for your average Joes.

I'm not even going to get into the topic of horses dropping down divisions, it frustrates me too much.

[Skyduck]

As an old bat, training my horses myself in my muddy backyard I can still say that when I deserve to win I do win. The horses I'm showing are not high money horses. Most were of good bloodlines bought as youngsters and without any training. I did train horses as a profession some 25 years ago so I guess that gives me a bit of an edge but even as a trainer I was self taught. The classes I show in always have some horses that are in training with a trainer and I have not found that a problem. There really are not any short cuts to good basic training and most people can do it if they want it bad enough. You probably won't make it to Lville but you can still compete and even win in good 3 and 4 day shows. My reasons for showing have much less to do with the $.75 ribbon and more as a proving ground to myself of how our training is going. I like to say I go to the shows to visit with friends and I guess that's where I am in my old age.

[Skyduck]

By the way, all country pleasure and show pleasure classes are shown by amateurs only and if their horses are with a trainer the AOT's actually have an advantage since most trainers only have the owners ride once a week where the AOT actually knows their horse well and can stop problems before they happen.

The current economy is hurting all of the horse industry so I think we are going to have to hope it gets better in the future.

[sunridge]

I understand that some of you wish you didn't have to have a show horse "all dressed up" to show, but when have we ever seen a pleasure rail class of any sort, hunter, western, open English, or whathaveyou, that supported a totally natural look? In hunter rail classes, they are braided - both manes and tails. In QH/Paint western rail classes, they are banded and unfortunately for many, tails are blocked. It seems to me that what some of you are desiring has never existed anywhere, with any breed. Clue me in if you have seen this sort of natural class you're referring to - I've not seen one. I do recall one class category that used to be put in years ago called the Go as You Please class. However, that really referred more to your riding discipline more than anything else.


Actually I have along with my sister, and her husband. Rode one their horses whom I had never ridden prior, in a gaited class in which I didn't even understand the gait names and won the class. Class of eight horses. Saddleseat with "horrors" braids no less. Guess what breed? We had a blast.

It sounds like what some of you want is a class where clipping is minimal, if any; shoeing is optional; and dress code is less than exemplary; where a Saddlebred better not enter if he has too much NATURAL elevation to his trot for fear of knocking a lesser trotting Saddlebred out of the ribbons, or where a Saddlebred better not hold it's head too high for fear of making a lower head set horse look like a dog. Forgive me for not comprehending what it is you're seeking here but I really don't understand. To me a show horse should at least look like a quality horse with some sort of dress-up code to it.


I don't understand where you got this from my posts but reread my post. My scourge of the earth trail horse, trots level barefoot all the time, he has a crooked tail FROM tail cutting and he sets up like a chess piece. I can take him in an arena, with a double bridle, W-T-C, halt, park out, back, side pass, run barrels,weave poles and sort cattle. His confo is near perfect no crooked legs, low back, sickle hocked but somehow he's be out of place at a breed show? And no I will never clip the inside of a horse that lives here again, it borders on cruelty in my area.

SF - we posted at the same time - that way out in the country theme is sort of what I had pictured too.

And this statement by both of you, is incredibly snobby. So fine the breed doesn't want my type. Is wondering why anyone is wondering why there are no new people.

[/QUOTE]


I never disparaged anyone breeding for SS, however plenty of disparaging remarks towards my goals with my chosen path. I have some very disturbing evidence of what really goes on behind closed doors in the training of these horses at the upper levels and there in no way on god's green earth I'd let any of my horses go through it for love nor money. So yeah I'm a jerk for wanting to protect my horses from the truck AND the trainer.

[D_BaldStockings]

I hope this doesn't seem too far off topic -this is a comparison of Saddlebred with SOME other breeds:

One problem as i see it is that the primary discipline for the Saddlebred does not exist on any USEF level as an open discipline. There is little incentive for other breeds to train and show SS; and most training barns for other breeds are discipline barns, not specific breed barns- they look for a type of horse with some training and potential and breed is of far less significance.

People seeing winners of these open USEF divisions place a high valus on those breeds and horses that win.They also make a distinction between breed wins and open wins, with the open being more prestigious and better for marketing the breed. A QH hunter winner at the World show gets no more than a ho-hum from the folks watching the HITS, WEG and DEVON shows.

And sorry to say, SS gets no respect outside of the ASHA.

Unfortunately, Saddlebreds doing other disciplines get little recognition or respect from ASHA. ASHA is a very small organization and time isn't really available for tracking and chasing/verifying those horses 'doing it' outside the Saddlebred divisions.

And for most Saddlebred people it gets awfully lonely out there away from other Saddlebred people and shows -which is why everyone wants a class for themselves in the Saddlebred shows.

I don't really know how to bring the 'camps' together and get them to quit feeling like they are competing against each other for the future of the breed -we need every market that we can enter.

If anyone with a good CP horse (in the original sense) hasn't tried competitive trail riding - I think you might like it!

[sunridge]

If anyone with a good CP horse (in the original sense) hasn't tried competitive trail riding - I think you might like it!

I WAS going to do that, did a bunch of research started to condition with my vet (an endurance rider) but I'm afeared the old body said,"Oh no you don't".

[walkinghorseowner]

I think a lot of this has to do with people attitudes today. Every breed has the classes split so much.Even the TWH. Classes for blonde women on black horses in red riding suits (2 entries), clases for brunettes on chestnut horses in yellow suits (4 entires) and a class for a gray haired lady over 65 ina pink coat on a palomino horse (1 entry)..... well heavens forbid those horses should show against each other and oh my we can't have 20 horses in the ring that wouldn't be fair. It is happening in all breeds. We don't want real competition anymore (too much work), we want limited competition, gives us a better chance at a blue.
I remember showing in classes that were 40 horses strong at the WC and the cuts were made by workouts. The one night shows had 15 and up in the ring, and there were workouts.

[Skyduck]

While I think there is room for a saddlebred in any form of riding or driving and would like to see that happen for this wonderful breed, saddleseat is not only for saddlebreds but Morgans, Arabs and on and on. It is not an exclusive club for just saddlebreds. It would be wonderful if we all would consider ourselves horsemen and women and support the lifestyle.

[vlayne]

While I think there is room for a saddlebred in any form of riding or driving and would like to see that happen for this wonderful breed, saddleseat is not only for saddlebreds but Morgans, Arabs and on and on. It is not an exclusive club for just saddlebreds. It would be wonderful if we all would consider ourselves horsemen and women and support the lifestyle.

And when someone tries it on an Appy or a QH, as strange as it may look to us, don't knock 'em. They might decide they like it and try a SADDLEBRED someday.

[ASB Stars]

And when someone tries it on an Appy or a QH, as strange as it may look to us, don't knock 'em. They might decide they like it and try a SADDLEBRED someday.

OK, Dokey...but now, you are smoking the ganja!!:winkiss:

Actually, the first horse I ever rode SS was a cremello mare, owned by the SS facilty where I took lessons. She was NOT an ASB.

[rhettdgn]

I have actually seen both.

There was the sharpest QH gelding that a little girl showed and won everything with. She showed him under SS tack. He didn't have a great amount of animation and didn't set real high in the bridle, but he was way adorable. They did have a bit of a foot on him and he wore a little something, something to give him "more". She competed on that horse for years at the "B" shows and was always turned out very well.

As to the Appy...I had a girl board this big gorgeous Appy at our farm years ago and she wanted to take hunt lessons.....the problem was this horse has a chess piece headset and used his legs very well. She started taking SS lessons and they were a very cool team. He was very pretty and not the typical Appy. Very high headed and tons of energy. I rode him a great deal and he was a ton of fun and felt all SS horse.

There have been a couple of barns that have used QH for beginner lesson programs that were teaching SS lessons and showed Morgans and Saddlebreds.....so it has been done.

[ASB Stars]

We have got to get a better "just joshin' ya" icon. Heck, I thought I used it.:yes:

[rhettdgn]

Stars-LOL!!!...I missed it...sorry!!! It must be the fever I've got!

Did you get my P.M.?

Actually..I was serious as a heart attack with my post! No fooling. Not super high quality, but tons of fun!!

Maybe getting some ganja is what I need....that may straighten me out!!

[Silly Filly]

And this statement by both of you, is incredibly snobby. So fine the breed doesn't want my type. Is wondering why anyone is wondering why there are no new people.



Nobody said the breed doesn't want your type, go ahead, show at breed shows all you want to. I know I wasn't being "snobby", and even if you want to think I am, everyone on here can assure you Snowfool wasn't. Throughout this thread, I've read that the shoeing is expensive, tailsets are bad, clipping is bad, stalls are expensive, backyard CP horses can't compete with professionally trained CP horses. Some of you want a division for those horses, and for whatever reason don't want/can't find AOT classes. Exactly what in the heck is wrong with the way out in the country pleasure class?

[silvia]

start a show division for sloppy, raggedy models of ASBs that should not be show horses

I don't see why it would be unreasonable to ask for a class at ANY show (ie an all breeds show not necessarily a Saddlebred only show) to be sponsored by the ASHA that allows:

A horse with a normal length hoof (and a limit on the length)
A horse without a pad
A horse with a normal keg shoe (and a limit on the weight)
A horse without a tail set (and ban a tail set at the show)

There is no reason a horse presented in this fashion cannot compete in a class looking clipped, trimmed up, immaculate with a very tidily and neatly presented rider.

Nobody has said 'oh long toes and pads are bad, tail sets are bad'. But plenty have said, hey these practises make saddle seat a LOT more expensive, maybe it's putting newcomers off trying saddle seat shows.

My point is, if your horse is turned out for the saddle seat classes as they appear to be, CURRENTLY, there is no realistic way you can take the same horse and expect it to cope with doing a 20 mile endurance ride the next weekend with those long feet and show shoes. Ride in dressage with a tail still shot right up from a tail set, and you will be penalised. The turnout for saddle seat, at a lower level where you might realistically expect the rider will be doing other disciplines as well, is not friendly to newcomers.

And my other point is that without rules specifically prohibiting the traditional long foot, show shoe and tail set, that if a new class is created or an existing one updated, that is exactly what is going to get into those classes.

Perhaps there should be a system by which ASHA creates an 'official' and 'unofficial' ring, where if you have an official showing card (as an amatur or professional), you are not permitted to compete in the unofficial ring. If the horse has won official points, you cannot compete that horse in unofficial. We have this system here in Australia for hacking (english show riding) and it does definitely create a much more novice friendly atmosphere at the unofficial rings.

The unofficial competitor cannot earn points and while the standard of 'quality' is definitely LESS, the unofficial ring also happens to have just as many competitors as the official ring. It is viewed here as the stepping stone to the official classes, a training ground, if you will.

It is cheap, accessible (anyone can enter a class for around $20), has its share of drama queens in and outside the ring but it works and it works well.

Nominate a class and make it newcomer friendly. All they need is a horse with some saddle seat training, the right tack, the right clothing and they can get into a class at their local horse show.

Who CARES if it's not perfection on a plate, the whole point is that it gets people STARTED. The first step is always the biggest.

I'm not against Saddle Seat. I am not against those 3 gaited and 5 gaited divisions etc. I don't even have Saddle Seat here! But I am all for Saddlebreds and Saddle Seat is one of the things they excel at. Why not look at encouraging people to get into it, if it's going to boost numbers and market? Right now what is being done is not working, so I say, change it and see what happens.

[D_BaldStockings]

Question from an old person - is there still a Saddleseat 'good hands' type equitation class open to all comers and all breeds? That has regional qualifiers and so on?

I have seen far more Western Saddlebreds, Morgans, and Arabians than I have seen Saddleseat Paints, Appaloosas and QH -or TB or WB for that matter. Go find me one Saddleseat WB anywhere.

Saddleseat is not promoted as a good comfortable riding seat, but as a show-only seat. That is a major downfall and drawback for people.

I am not disparaging Saddleseat, I am trying to change the perception and first I need to know where we are and why we are here; so maybe I am talking out loud to myself, but problems have solutions, weaknesses can be strengthened, potholes can be filled...if you notice before your axle snaps!

[ASB Stars]

I have seen far more Western Saddlebreds, Morgans, and Arabians than I have seen Saddleseat Paints, Appaloosas and QH -or TB or WB for that matter. Go find me one Saddleseat WB anywhere.

I'm thinking you've been missing out on the Friesian classes at our breed shows. Warmbloods- and Saddle Seat!! Go figure!!

[Skyduck]

I think you might be misinformed regarding saddleseat as only for the show ring. I know many people that trailride most every weekend in their cut back saddles. I myself am simply not comfortable in any saddle other than a flat saddle. I guess it's all what you get used to but a forward seat saddle makes me feel as though I'm perched up in the air on top of the horse instead of being down on his back. Back when I was training Morgans my saddle of choice to start colts with was a cutback flat saddle. As I said, it's all what you get used to I think.

I'm very glad that you have seen those Western Saddlebreds as it means that having some diversity in the breed is working. Maybe the reason you don't see as much of saddleseat riders is due to the part of the country you live in?

As far as long feet and heavy shoes are concerned my saddlebred mare and I just won the cp driving championship at a breed show with her 4 inch toes and light shoes and yes we even beat a trainer,s horse that had dropped down from Park as he got older. So even "old fat ladies" can get er done.

[smurphy0806]

Well it sure looks like this thread was HOPPING while I was away at Pinto World. I've spent the last few days reading everything so I am up to speed. I'm going to be commenting on things that happened a LONG time ago, but I want to get my 2-cents in. :)

At what point in the ASB history did the only determination of an ASB's value become if it could perform at the KSF? (don't get me wrong that is what I am breeding for but if a colt of mine isn't going that direction it doesn't make it valueless to me) At what point in the ASB history did the being a trail horse, a cow horse, a h/j, endurance, dressage or any other use a person could have for this magnificent animal become meaningless?


This is one of the things that questions me most.... I don't understand why people say "the non-KSF horses go on to be western, hunter or dressage." I just do not really understand that. In order for the breed to excel, honestly this needs to CHANGE. And I HONESTLY think that BIGGEST problem is ASHA does not allow Stallions to compete in Western and Hunter. By not allowing stallions, you will not purposefully breed for a western horse. It will just "come out that way." Everyone is saying it, even on this forum! They are too forward headed, or not enough motion for 3-gaited so they just do western/hunter/dressage. JUST. Like it is bad that the horse didn't turn out 3/5gaited... If you "happen" to get a western horse when you were breeding for a 5-gaiter, well that stinks. But I think it says something about the breed. Stallions are SUPPOSED to be "The best of the best." Stallions are supposed to be ULTIMATE quality. They are supposed to be Top Notch! So by not allowing those "Top Notch" horses to compete in Western and Hunter, you are saying Top Notch horses do NOT BELONG in Western and Hunter.... At least that is what I feel like ASHA is saying.

I think stallions not being able to show in western and hunter is utterly crazy. A few years ago when I started to think about switching breeds, I asked why stallions were not allowed to show western. This was the response I got "Because saddlebreds are supposed to have 3-gaited like motion or 5-gaited like motion. They don't WANT a western horse. So any horse that comes out looking non 3-gaited or non 5-gaited should be immediately gelded because it is not quality enough." I was like .... "Um. OK? Can't a horse excel in Western even if its not a quality 3-gaited horse?!?!" The answer is YES.

The breed mentality is ONLY geared toward SS. An EASY fix to grow alternative disciplines is to allow stallions. Then someone who had a beautiful, perfect Hunter Stallion, could market the horse. And then when people said "Hey I LOVE the saddlebred mindset and intelligence, but I really just want to do Hunter..." They could breed or get one of that studs get.... its a win/win situation. This is something that doesn't even cost any additional classes or $$$ to ASHA. It is something that they need to change the rules, but something that is an EASY fix!

It just seems to me that ASHA doesn't really want Hunter or Western horses. They do it because the owners have asked for it. Thats all. Please explain to me why when you click on the KSF 08 winners (http://www.asha.net/ksfchamp08) do they not say anything about the western classes? After all, the top 16 western saddlebreds in the country are invited to compete in the class. That is an HONOR just to be invited! Why don't they list the winner on the KSF 08 winners page? Trust me, I understand that the western pleasure invitiational is a HUGE honor. Hell, even if I wasn't able to go, saying my horse was invited to go would be huge bragging rights for me! I am not saying they should get ride of that, but what I am saying is restrict a class to Three-Gaited Park Invitational or make all the requirements the same! OR ad a western class that you can show in and NOT be invited in. And why does the KSF not even have a hunter class!?!?!?!
I guess what gets to me the most is that we dont promote this "waste product" even within our own industry.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!


And Maytime... Your post 38 (which I REALLY want to repost so just hopefully it calls more attention to people, but I wont) is EXACTLY what I mean!!!!!!!!! BUT I want to take your analogy one step further...



An analogy was made in the Saddlebred mag comparing the Louisville horses percentage (10%) to would-be singing stars that hit the bigtime. We seem to think only the Louisville quality saddleseat horses have value, and others should be pointed to other disciplines. IMO that's like telling a kid who will not be a singing superstar "maybe you'll be good at sports, or small engine repair" when in reality that kid might be perfectly happy with an inexpensive karaoke machine, singing in the church choir, etc.


In my opinion, that's like telling a kid who will not be a rock star, "maybe you'll be good at sports, or small engine repair" when in REALITY that kid would be stellar in opera, or country.

Just because Western or Hunter is not as exciting as 3-gaited or 5-gaited does not mean that it is not a good option! Some people LOVE rock, Some people HATE rock, Some people LOVE 3-gaited, other people HATE 3-gaited and would prefer a more relaxed, western or hunter. Considering our horses are not cookie cutter, considering you can not special order horses, we need to have disciplines for EVERY time of horse our breed comes out as. And by NOT allowing stallions to compete in those disciplines you are telling the world that "the real quality horses do not come out western." Because after all you are not supposed to breed a non-quality stud.... so if you can not show a stud western... then obviously western is not quality. At least this is the throught frame I believe ASHA has been portraying by not allowing stallions to show in these disciplines.


Something that even a lot of posters who are complaining about the lack of options are saying that REALLY bothers me. I'm not going to name names, but people have posted... I thought the reason we had Country Pleasure was so the lower quality horses could show there.... The thing is. They are NOT lower quality and this is what needs to change is ASHA's mindframe, what they market, and the ASB's horse owner/breeder. Country Pleasure horses are NOT lower quality, they are just different horses.


ASHA, Owners, Breeders, Potential Customers... We all need to REALIZE this! Whey can't you have a stellar Country horse? Why does that mean it is "lesser quality??????" ITS NOT! It is a different horse, that has a job and is excellent at its job. Period..... End of story.









I have other things to comment on that I am putting on a new post Since they are a differnet subject.

[D_BaldStockings]

I stand corrected, as usual.

I should have posted European WB i.e. Trakhener, Holsteiner, Oldenberger, Hanoverian, Dutch WB (not DHH), Swedish WB, Danish WB, Selle Francais which are commonly used for the FEI disciplines.

In addition to Friesians and DHH, I have seen Lipizzans and Andalusians ridden Saddleseat on rare occasion, too. By the Warmblood definition of not all hot and not all cold, Saddlebreds are also warmbloods, but I don't like to lump them in with every other breed on the planet except Arabs, Tbs and heavy drafts.
There is some debate as to whether Friesians should be classed as generic WB, some considering them full draft by heritage if not by use.

And people are missing the point of why is SS shrinking when it was SOOO popular up into the 1970's? We don't want to be an anomaly, a mere blip on the radar, why has this happened and how can it change?

SS classes at our breed shows -your words- again I ask where are the OPEN SS shows outside of just breed shows?

[Samigator]

Yeah Silvia! :thumbup1: Totally agree. I had suggested something, it seems over a year ago, somewhere on this board, about limit classes, that limited the number of wins/points that a horse had for certain classes. To give the chance for good show horses to make something of themselves where they otherwise couldn't due to "drop downs" and "been there done that, what do you have left to prove that you are still showing this horse this much?" type horses.

Something that I would LOVE, and I've said it before, but I'm going to say it again, and it really wouldn't be very hard, would be for our local charter club to sponsor a WSCA show (open all breed show). Add in a few extra classes for the light breeds (usually at open shows, if they have saddle seat at all, it is open saddle seat pleasure and open saddle seat equitation) specifically catering to ASB's, half-ASB's, or other light breeds, advertise it to ASB folks as well as WSCA folks in the local publications (on show calendars, etc), and make it affordable just like WSCA shows. maybe $5 classes, optional stalls available for $20 like they sometimes are depending on facilities, etc. You're not going to get your first rate facilities, no decorations or organists inside the ring, but just SOMETHING to try to bridge the gap. Hopefully you would get people from both the breed world and the open world. The judge, I suppose you could use a WSCA judge that is familiar with saddle seat (yes, they do exist!). I have gone to a few of these sponsored by the MN Arab and half-arab associations and they were great shows and we had a great time, with awesome turnout in both the stock and light breed classes. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE if they would do this. The open show point program, that's a whole 'nother thing which would also be great, but at least recognise that these shows exist and that people with ASBs are out there campaigning the breed despite the QH gods trying to eliminate us from the circuit and we need support from the higher powers so that we can keep our saddle seat classes and our place in the show ring and the public eye!

[smurphy0806]

As far as Renai saying ASB is not the only registry hurting. She is totally right. I can get numbers on Arabians if you like, but their number of horses being bred and registered, is declining each year. I say "and registered" because it is well known that some major farms are not registering the foals if they perceive them as culls when they hit the ground. These farms then sell them at auction. This is of course dramatically skewing the number of foals certain mares and stud are having. Lots of members of AHA were outraged when they heard this, and people have been trying to think of a solution to present to AHA... I don't think anyone came up with a good idea. Unfortunately the grass is always greener on the other side. Arabian people think ASHA does it SOOO great!

I have gone to many equine events in the midwest, and quite frequently SBR, or ASHA is represented there... unfortunately I have never seen AHA or any Arabian breed based organization represented at these multi breed functions. So while we may see many other ways to improve the breed, there are many things we are doing right.

But back to the original post. I don't know why Arabian and Saddlebred registries are declining. Perhaps its because in the past 20 years we hit a "PEAK" and now the numbers are more realistic. BUT perhaps it is because people are going over to QH, Jumpers, or just getting out of horses. Unfortunately I don't have registry numbers on QH's. But I could probably get them if you like.

In my humble and honest opinion... people are not breeding LESS foals each year, its just that less foals are being registered each year. I think people are waiting several months or a year until they register a horse because they see the consequences of registering 20 "non-3-gaited-quality" horses are going to ruin a reputation of a certain stud if he has 100 registered get.

This needs to be changed.... how... ? I have no idea.

I hate to say it, but I know of an occassional breeder who had a 2006 foal that is not yet registered. She wanted to see if it "turned out to be something, otherwise... why spend the money?" I think this is happening way more than we see. This needs to change, but I don't know how.

[sunridge]

I don't want to fight. I've never slung an insult. I pretty much care very little what people do with their horses. There are too many abuses related to the show ring in ALL breeds. I could compile a list. And every single one them would be met with the same straw man approach.

This showing business at one time was about the animal. A farmer showing off his wares. Now it is about people. The best farrier, trainer,vet, groomer, location, pharmacist. It is not just Saddle seat, heck it's not even about just horses. It's the "show" business period.

The whole thing is merely a reflection of the times. I think specialization was a huge mistake, especially in the depletion of our already small gene pool. Another symptom of instant gratification. Second generation breeders are of the past. Maybe the X-generation will do better and learn from the mistakes of Me-generation.

And I still will not clip the inside of my horses ears as long as they live outside. I gave a seller the riot act for doing that to a horse I was buying. "But they look better." Tell me how good they look after the gnats have at them.

To clarify one little thing, I take no pride in the fact that the general horse public think my ASB's are expensive and require special training. They just look that way. Our "culls" ( by culls I mean horses that can't hit their chins with their knees) are better than most breeds stars. And yet they are culls, to be dumped. I cannot/will not understand that line of thinking.

[D_BaldStockings]

Smurphy,

I will skip the stallions part of your post as I am not currently breeding , except to say that you are absolutely right about Western, Hunter and CP being the 'poor relations' in ASHA rankings. SS is the only thing that matters.
Changing that perception is going to be a huge undertaking -but you are young enough to do it if you choose and have the drive and desire.

I originally came from the lake Michigan area: Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois and my perception was that it used to be about 45% H/J, 35% Saddleseat, 20% western at shows wayyyy back in the 60's I didn't have a horse so went to everything in range to watch in those days and it turned into a bad habit. In the 80's things had shifted to 35% H/J, 30% western, 25% dressage and 10% saddleseat.

With the demise of the mixed divisions open shows where you could see everything from hackney ponies to open jumpers the spectator base (where new people come from) has dramatically shrunk. It is now rare to see a mixed breed open SS class if you are not at a breed-specific show.

If you don't grow up in it what are the odds that you will convert?
There are many who also ride or at least try western, dressage or huntseat.

[Samigator]

smurphy- wow, I had no idea that stallions weren't allowed in those disciplines! Wow, what a shot to those horses and disciplines. It certainly does give that impression that ASHA thinks non-SS horses are less than quality- between not allowing stallions and having almost no existance at KSF, it really shuts down avenues for newcomers to the breed, who may be familiar, comfortable with, and equipped for these disciplines already (ie. transitioning other breed owners who already have hunt and western equipment and know-how, but may not have SS knowledge or "stuff"). I know a ton of people who would love a nice western or hunter ASB, but you are absolutely right, there is no marketing out there for those types, and no breeding that promotes them. Great point, I had no idea! Thanks for pointing that out to us! :detective: Seems like that would be a pretty easy fix. . .

[attafox]

Samigator -

It's not so much that stallions aren't allowed in those divisions specifically - they are not allowed in any pleasure division as the thinking is that the stallions are supposed to represent the hot open horse rather than the pleasure horse mentality. So, you won't find stallions in saddle seat pleasure, either.

[Samigator]

Samigator -

It's not so much that stallions aren't allowed in those divisions specifically - they are not allowed in any pleasure division as the thinking is that the stallions are supposed to represent the hot open horse rather than the pleasure horse mentality. So, you won't find stallions in saddle seat pleasure, either.

right, but at least the non-KSF quality offspring of those performance division horses were still bred to do saddle seat and still have a discipline to perform in for which they were bred. Stallions are supposed to be the epitome of perfection, hence why they contribute to improve the gene pool. You aren't going to get many 3G quality offspring from a CP quality stallion, whereas you will probably get more potential breed-pool contributors starting out with a 3G quality horse. But if there are no stallions available that are the perfect western horse, it sure seems like we are limiting our breed to only improving the saddle seat type horses. . . btw, I mean no disrespect to CP and am not implying that CP horses are not quality horses, I can't find the right words, but basically I'm saying that the performance division types of horses are the direction the breed is trying to go with improvement, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we can improve AND broaden our gene pool and market fairly easily. . .

[silvia]

so, what is the ASHA Marketing department doing about this kind of stuff? Should we as members send emails or letters asking for these kinds of things to be looked at?

[vlayne]

There is no need to allow stallions in pleasure classes. I think our outstanding, stellar, top of the line stallions are doing a bang-up job of producing western, hunt and other types of horses without being those "types" of horses themselves.

As I stated in an earlier post - you can have an entire family of full siblings that do not resemble each other in the least. There is SUCH a wide variety of talent, conformation, mentalities, etc in the breed that comes out in the strangest ways... and the smallest differences can make the biggest impact on what division/life they are suitest for.

The Saddlebred as a BREED is extremely versatile. Breeders need to be more open minded about what might pop out of their mare. Yes, they can HOPE for a certain type, color, sex, etc., but whatever they get - they should have plans in place to set that foal up for success in whatever it is born to do.

[attafox]

Samigator, while I agree with Vlayne re: stallions not in pleasure classes, your argument makes no sense to me at all.

WP and HP ARE CP horses. If you want to have WP studs, why NOT have a saddle seat CP stud?

[silvia]

There is no need to allow stallions in pleasure classes. I think our outstanding, stellar, top of the line stallions are doing a bang-up job of producing western, hunt and other types of horses without being those "types" of horses themselves.

Shouldn't that be up to the owner of the stallion to decide which division he or she would like to show him?

Show horse breeders from what I have seen seem to take plenty of liberties with the breed standard when it comes to producing a Saddlebred that wins in the 3 and 5 gaited performance classes.

Why is it okay for them and not for a breeder angling for Western show classes? Is a Saddlebred somehow less, if it's not snorting and bouncing off the walls? Becuase most stallions I have seen, are quite happy to be well behaved and gentle in and out of the ring, given the opportunity. Personally I think it would be a great opportunity to show just how calm a Saddlebred stallion can be.

[attafox]

Um, Silvia, my WP mare, who is L'ville qualified, snorts and bounces off the walls.:devil2:

[silvia]

Now you're just showing off :phone:

[kross]

Smurphy and others wanting stallions in pleasure divisions...just what we need an excuse for everyone not to geld horses. That will be a good way to promote responsible breeding, everyone will think they have a breeding quality stallion and geld nothing. How busy do you want us to be in the rescue department?

As far as I'm concerned all other debates about why studs aren't allowed in pleasure classes are absolutely moot just on that fact alone.

[silvia]

Kross;

What if you have a lovely stallion, and you do not want to set his tail? Are there any saddle seat classes apart from pleasure where he would not be realistically penalised for this?

[kross]

Silvia I have multiple answers for that one...(and this is life in the states)

While we all know otherwise, the rules state an uncut/unset tail is not to be penalized. W/the way everyone ignores the rules and fail to get penalized for regarding tail sets, putting a horse in the pleasure division for that reason is going to have the same affect as if you had put it in a different division.

If you are putting a horse that belongs in another division to the pleasure division are you not doing the very thing that is upsetting so many, using the tail as the excuse to unbalance the playing field?

If you are using this horse in a SS discipline w/the intent of him standing to outside mares by putting him in the pleasure division you have just guaranteed no ASB breeder will touch him and it is going to be an uphill climb to market the foals to the show industry. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but that is what it is here.

Finally as a pro-breeding rescuer, not breeding for the top of a discipline, knowing full well you could be creating something that is going to be in a different division/discipline (see Vlayne's post) , isn't that akin to intentionally breeding "pet" quality? And does a "pet" quality breeding philosophy count as responsible breeding philosophy?

[walkinghorseowner]

In reference to stallions being in the western class and hunt etc. These horses I assume would go on to breed. At what point by breeding these animals does the gene pool change and a saddlebred becomes not truly a saddlebred. In all registered animals you have a breed standard. Breeders aim to fulfill the breed standard. Animals that do not fill that standard, are not nor should not be bred. Like dogs, perfection with the standard goes to the showring, the rest go for pets, or other uses such as working, obedience agility etc. The top dog in the ring, that has the ability to excel in other things is of even more value. But they don't breed a dog with faults or is considered sub standard even if he can win in the agility ring.
As to declining registery, the TWH is registering less than half the foals they were a few years ago. All registries are declining.

[smurphy0806]

By not allowing Stallions to be shown in Western and Hunter, ASHA and its members are saying those divisions don't count. That's it... End of story. If you honestly want these divisions to grow, you need to start giving them some respect.

If I want a Western ASB prospect. Where do I go? Do I call all the "BNT" and say "Hey do you have any Culls that wont make it in the Show world that you think would make a good Western horse?" Chances are if I call the places that were considering "making them disappear" me mentioning Western is not going to make things any better, and the person on the phone will probably say "NO" and send that horse away ANYWAYS.

Western and Hunter NEED to grow. They need to get more respect in the ASB world! They need to be represented more at KSF.



On a side note... if we are complaining about registry numbers and then complaining that we have too many horses to rescue as it is... then, what do we want? Less horses being registered, therefore less horses to save? Or more horses being registered?



On Another Side note....

Perhaps if the registry started giving Western and Hunter some respect, in 5 years the mindest that Western and Hunter are the "cull" division will be out of everyones thought process. And therefore there will be fewer culls because there will be established Western and Hunter ASB trainers. People that non 3-gaited foals can be sent to get training instead of to the Amish... Then we would have less horses to rescue, and more horses being registered.

Dare to Dream.

[ASB Stars]

I believe that stallion should be able to show in any division an amateur, or professional, cares to ride them in- not a juvenile.

Please do not bother with the crap about them being crazy, and causing issues. Refer to the Arabian and Morgan shows. If the horses are qualified for a division, being a stallion should not disqualify them.

[sdlbredfan]

Oh wow, I love what D BaldStockings said! (I have some catching up to do, LOL, like about 5 pages...) I am referring to thte "The lead dog may be indispensable to the team, but it is the team that moves the sled and saves the lead dog if he steps into a crevasse: no one of us can do it alone or in opposition to each other. Teams only work when they work together, are headed the right direction, and everybody gets fed!".

Jeanie

[silvia]

Well that pretty much rules me out then as someone for example (if I were in the States now) whose only horse right now that is nice enough to be a show horse comfortably, also happens to be a stallion. Too bad if I wanted to try saddle seat there, as I would never get to compete.

Becuase I would not set my horse's tail, nor feel the need to put show shoes on him, nor wish to geld a perfectly good stallion which I bought for my breeding programme, the SS world would lose another participator.

For this I would simply not bother, and continue to do what I am doing here, which is riding out on the trail, showing in breed shows, and planning to do dressage tests and a bit of jumping, so those disciplines can enjoy my money and support for classes, instructors and clinics instead. All of which accomodate stallions at a grass roots level.

[smurphy0806]

I believe that stallion should be able to show in any division an amateur, or professional, cares to ride them in- not a juvenile.

Please do not bother with the crap about them being crazy, and causing issues. Refer to the Arabian and Morgan shows. If the horses are qualified for a division, being a stallion should not disqualify them.

:rockon:


I agree!

[sdlbredfan]

Skyduck, you are sharing some great words of wisdom. I like the way you think!
Jeanie

[attafox]

Silvia (and others);

Many of the small, open, fun shows that people are being encouraged to bring horses to in order to showcase the ASB do not allow stallions, either. Now, sadly :cursing: the parades we go to are filled with stallions owned by the charros. Easy to tell because they are ill mannered and all think my mare is "da bomb." She just says, "ew, mom, what is THAT?"

OTOH, Borealis' papa just showed out here in a fun show in a walk and favorite gait class with his owner. She obtained permission from the show manager prior to (because the class doesn't specifically state "pleasure"). Won the class (walk/rack ...Eddie loves to rack!)

[sdlbredfan]

Sunridge, I agree with this "And I still will not clip the inside of my horses ears as long as they live outside". I do not clip insides of ears on stalled ones either for the sake of the happy times they get to go eat grass or play in turnout.
Jeanie

[SmartAlex]

:censored: I am "pro stallions in pleasure".

Say I have a great quality stallion with excellent bloodlines. I have a small breeding program, but want to both showcase my stallion to outside breeders, and enjoy him as a show horse. But, I don't want to compete against horses with set tails and high-end shoeing. I want to allow him turn out and enjoy him around the farm instead of keeping him shut up in the barn 23 hours a day. Where do I show him? The all breed saddle seat classes? Sure, many breed shows have a couple of open classes, but that certainly ins't going to advertise him to potential breeders... those people are using that class time to go get a sandwich.

In the latest ASHA magazine, tazsprout's article pictured the stallion CH Superior's Successor going out for a trail ride. What a great life for a stud. Obviously he is well trained with excellent manners. His owner had the money and desire to campaign him in the 5 gaited ranks with success at the KSF level. What if his owner had not had the money or desire to show at that level? What if she had wanted to show in the pleasure division instead? Too bad. If you are an AOTR and want to campaign your stud as a show horse (particularly five gaited which rarely shows up in the park div), you better be skilled enough to train for the open divisons yourself, or get a trainer.

ETA: I'm starting to sound like bitter broken record... the whole show scene (big time show scene with an occassional deserved success) is geared towards money and trainers. The AOTR's and small breeders have an uphill battle from every direction. No wonder so many of them are taking their toys and going home.

[silvia]

Silvia (and others);

Many of the small, open, fun shows that people are being encouraged to bring horses to in order to showcase the ASB do not allow stallions, either. Now, sadly :cursing: the parades we go to are filled with stallions owned by the charros. Easy to tell because they are ill mannered and all think my mare is "da bomb." She just says, "ew, mom, what is THAT?"

OTOH, Borealis' papa just showed out here in a fun show in a walk and favorite gait class with his owner. She obtained permission from the show manager prior to (because the class doesn't specifically state "pleasure"). Won the class (walk/rack ...Eddie loves to rack!)

I'm probably playing devil's advocate here a little, attafox - being a stallion owner I am only too aware first hand of the egos owning a stallion can attract especially if you have somewhere to show them.

My point is though, time to look at new avenues, explore new options. The market is changing, the goal posts have moved, and kicking into the same spot doesn't score the same goals it used to. So why instead of waiting to see the goal posts move back, get out there and change.

It's a very exciting time, lots of opportunities to be had!

[Skyduck]

Here's a thought. How about sponsoring a pleasure, western, hunt etc class at shows for stallions only. My only concern with opening up the whole field of pleasure classes to stallions is that you might create what was going on in the Morgan world years ago. Every tom, dick and harry that had a stud colt thought he was going to be a world class stallion and because they could show him they did. They also took him home and because he was so handy they bred him to their own mares. Many of these stallions had no business being bred since they had issues. Every spring I would get at least 4 of these stud colts in to do harness training and I don't remember 1 that I would have wanted to reproduce with. It took years for the Morgan people to decide that a nice gelding was a good thing to have.