Saddles Sizes

[Jrchloe]

There is always talk about saddle tree sizes in other disiplines but I never really see much discussion on this topic in Saddle Seat forums. So I am wondering what lane fox cutback brands have what size trees? I know the 3000 milliumum saddle from SStack.com is a medium-medium wide (I asked them) but what about the other brands? I thought this would be good information to know when looking for saddles. Can cutbacks be reflocked by a saddler to make them fit better like other saddles can or are they too thin for that?

[Renae]

Cutback saddles do no have flocked panels, so no, they can not be reflocked. They have either felt or foam panles or a combo of the two. I have seen saddles where the felt panles were redone to fit a horse with a low back better, but most saddle seat people usually choose the adjust saddle fit with low back or wedge pads as needed.

[Jrchloe]

So all there is to go on is the tree size and that varies by brand, correct?

[Tack Collector]

It's the same problem as hunt and dressage saddles: No standardization, and each manufacturer can call it whatever they want. That's why I was posting pics to the "tree widths and angles" threads for reference until admins told me to stop using bandwidth. Now I'm at Horse Grooming Forum as Tack Collector.

Whitman now Norman, L&R (Lovatt & Ricketts) and Smith Worthington made / still make cutback saddles with various tree widths. Blue Ribbon made at least one wide model. I have one. It's a 3" cutback and wide for Morgan / Arabian and it's wider than the standard Blue Ribbon.

Barnsby considers their #4 tree wide but it's not particularly "wide" in the cutback saddle world, lol.

Whitman / Campbell / Coventry / Norman standard tree, they called medium-wide.

Yes, you could have the felt / foam panels converted to flocking. Cost would probably be same as for hunt or dressage: About $260 or so + shipping.

[Renae]

Also Smith Worthington will custom adjust the tree to fit a certain horse if you measure the horse and send photos as they tell you to. I believe this is the only company that makes saddle seat saddles that offers this.

[Jrchloe]

Also Smith Worthington will custom adjust the tree to fit a certain horse if you measure the horse and send photos as they tell you to. I believe this is the only company that makes saddle seat saddles that offers this.

I wonder why that is. What size would you say the Freedman tree runs?

[Renae]

I wonder why that is. What size would you say the Freedman tree runs?

IMO a lot of saddle seat people do not pay close enough attention to saddle fit, many are still in the mid set that if the saddle is not making bloody sores then it must fit.

The Freedman saddles are pretty wide, a touch wider than the Whitmans/Normans.

[Jrchloe]

Well wouldn't it be more like trainers don't think much about saddle fit because most owners are with a trainer and do whatever they say (I did). If a saddle doesn't fit well would you see a sore right away? I have read that the gullets in cutback saddles aren't big enough (on the schleese website) is this true? Schleese used to make custom saddleseat saddles but don't anymore are there any other companies other than Smith Worthington that make full custom saddles?

[Renae]

I think you must be referring to this article http://www.schleese.com/cutbacksandsaddlebreds

I don't think most saddle seat saddles are too narrow in the gullet. I think many do not have thick enough panels to provide enough gullet clearance (the gullet area should not contact the horse at all for the entire length of the saddle). Wether that be from the saddle's orginal design or sue to the fact that the saddle is 30 years old and flat as a board in the panels from simple use.

I do agree with the author of that article that bridging is a bad fit problem with many saddle seat saddles. I also think that many saddle seat horses are ridden in saddles that are simply too long for their backs as the current vogue thing is for everyone to ride in 22" saddles.

A horse can be very, very sore from its saddle and never show obvious signs like a saddle sore. It can come up as lameness, performance or behavior problems and there are many good horses out there that put up with poor fitting saddles for years and just "grin and bare it".



Another saddle I have been curious to see IRL is the Freedom Holistic Saddle. It is built on a flexible tree, but has the same look as a traditional saddle seat saddle. Here is the company's website http://www.semiflexsaddles.co.uk/semiflexsystem_01.htm and where you can get the saddle seat version http://www.ablackhorse.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8705&idcategory=439 Anyone ridden in one of these yet?

[Jrchloe]

Yes thats the article. There was a thread on the Freedom saddle awhile ago http://www.trot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3239&highlight=freedom+saddle. I wonder what they look like on a horse. What exactly does bridging mean and what does it look like? I know the saddle isn't suppose to go past the 18th vertebre but do they mean your seatbones shouldn't be past that or the saddle shouldn't be longer than that? Also could some kind person draw a line on this part of the back?

[Renae]

Bridging is when the saddle tree contacts the horse's back at the front and back but not in the center. A horse with even a slightly dippy back can have bridging if the saddle has very flat bars. There are saddles that have more of a "rocker" to the bar than others. Bridging is usually addressed with saddle seat saddles by adding more pads in an attempt to shim out the bridging, which can work soemtimes but other times when other parts of the saddle fit are completely wrong it just doesn't.

If you draw an imaginary line on a horse from the last rib straight up the saddle should not be sitting any farther back than that. If your saddle does sit farther back than that you are really putting the horse at a high risk of getting a very sore back, which can stem in to many other things (poor performance, lameness and/or behavior issues).

[SaddlebredMom]

Yes thats the article. There was a thread on the Freedom saddle awhile ago http://www.trot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3239&highlight=freedom+saddle. I wonder what they look like on a horse.

BeccaKW on here has one, I think it's a 22", that she won at auction (SBR??). I'd bet she'd be willing to post or send you some pics of it.

[Jrchloe]

So when you have a horse with a low back and you have to pad to get the seat flat do you just fit the shoulders of the horse or do you go a bit wider because of the pads and how it chages the angle of the saddle?

[Renae]

Well, firstly, a saddle should not be on a horse's shoulders. If it is it is much too far forwards.

For a low backed horse I would fit the saddle to the horse's back at the front and back of the saddle where it can actually contact the horse (using a saddle with as much "rocker" to the tree that I can find so that the area that is bridging is as small as possible) and shim the saddle (use pads that are shaped to fill in the gap) to correct the fit. Either the typical leather low back pad that the saddle seat catalogs carry or more preferably a custom Skito pad for that horse http://www.skito.net/prod01.htm

[Jrchloe]

Whoops, haha. I meant withers.:blush: Do you know what saddle brands have trees with that have the "rocker" you speak of? I understand sounds like what my old trainer did.

[Tack Collector]

Renae made a couple of really interesting points about today's saddles and fads. If you look through the old photos in the Helen Crabtree saddle seat equitation book, you'll see three things, in many photos: Shorter saddles, saddles with a higher pommel that provides more wither clearance (even the 4" cutbacks), and riders sitting in a more forward location on the horses' backs. In some of my really old catalogs, the cutback show saddle like we use today only came in 17" or 19". Not even a 20" or 21". The slightly cutback park saddles and the old straight head saddles were tyopically 17 or 18 for women, maybe 19" at most (usually meant for a man), and a 19" park saddle is a big roomy seat. Every time I hear some <smaller breed's> rider say "I use a 22" Shively / Barnsby," I wonder just how long <that breed's> back is nowadays. (Not naming any names, lol.)

Some of the deep seat saddles with higher round cantle also have a more curved tree vs. the flat seat models of the same brand. Some, not all. Crosby 303AB has a weird tree shape that is rockered, and swings up at the back. I've often wondered if that had some purpose like fitting or concealing a low back? Anyone know?
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/2/3/9/7/8/8b0c_1_crosby303_20.jpg

Whitmans and their USA Campbells and Coventrys are flat. Barnsby has some rocker. Flat seat Crosby is a flatter tree.

[Tack Collector]

With the western saddle flex trees, the people who hated them frequently complained that they especially don't work well for larger & heavier riders, and also not so great for a more swaybacked horse. I don't have any references but I researched the Tex Flex and Circle Y flex tree saddles a little last summer. As they say, "Your mileage may vary."

[Jrchloe]

What new Saddle Seat saddle brands (i.e. Shivley, Freedman, Blue Ribbon, Norman, etc) have the most rocker?

[Samigator]

Good topic. Until about 6 months ago I wouldn't have realized how little I knew about saddle fitting, and what a terrible fit a horse can put up with, and all the fine details that must be tended to in order to assure proper fit. I came to realize that my old Borelli regular tree cutback was just a terrible fit on my horse, far too narrow and flat in the bars for him, and how so many other saddles out there were just as bad if not worse. I finally, after searching more than a dozen saddles found an all purpose to fit him and me. And think of how many brands and variations there are in close contact and all purpose saddles. . . if it was that hard to fit with that many options, just think of where most saddle seat horses are at with the very limited options cutbacks offer for sizes and shapes.

Excellent information from all here thus far. I will add that you can learn a LOT from a good, experienced saddle fitter, or even just having the knowledge of what to look for and going through bunches of saddles on your own. this is a good site with a lot of basic info on saddle fitting: http://www.saddlefitter.com/a,b,%20c's%20of%20saddlefitting.htm

I personally don't know which brands of cutbacks tend to be the straightest and which have the most curve to the bars, or which tend to run wider/narrower, etc, but I think Tack Collector has excellent resources to look into for this info. Keep in mind, that even on a low-backed horse, sometimes you don't want a saddle with very curvy bars as they will rock on the horse's back and can cause more soreness. . .

[Tack Collector]

The most rocker'd saddle seat cutback in the world is probably the Crosby 303AB that is a deep seat with adjustable bars.

The Palaton / G. T. Palmer deeper seat with round cantle also has some rocker.

Barnsby (regular seat, round cantle eq. seat) has rocker. The Shivley seems straighter.

Whitman, Campbell, and Coventry from USA are very straight and flat. From the marks on the panels, it looks like they bridge pretty often. I see wear at the pack edge and wear at the withers, and nice new panels in between. But all the oldtimers say that Barsnby fits more horses than Whitman.

Campbell / Coventry from England varies widely.

Blue Ribbon, modern ones, are fairly straight, but the old classics from '70s and earlier tend to have more rocker.

I'll think about it some more and will dig through my picture collection when I get time.

ETA: I don't think I have time to write up much. Here http://s889.photobucket.com/home/saddles4sale_2009/allalbums in this public album is where I park saddle pics. Some are my saddles; some were sold; some are just pics collected from ebay or other online ads to use as examples.