Heads up on liniments, show people...

[War Admiral]

Thought I'd pass along the latest from USEF... No more liniments, effectively... The following ALL will test: Bigeloil, Vetrolin, Sore No More. Bigeloil and Sore No More have been on the Ugly List for quite some time now but Vetrolin is new. Recommendation is to withdraw all of these 7 days prior to showtime.

First person to figure out a nice after-class bracer we can all use that will NOT test wins a prize.... to be determined later!

I'm sorta thinking the most viable option would be good old fashioned (unmedicated) clay poulticing... Grooms won't thank me for that b/c as we all know that stuff is TOUGH to get off once it dries... So I'd sure welcome any other ideas!

[sdlbredfan]

What about plain ordinary Witch hazel?

[cparker912]

Where is this? I dont see it on the drug list..

[snowfool]

Good grief - I haven't shown in a few years but if I was, I would be very upset to not be able to use my Vetrolin. Call me naive - but why would liniments be banned - what is in them that constitutes cheating?

[smurphy0806]

Where is this? I dont see it on the drug list..

Yes I would like to where it is also.

Good grief - I haven't shown in a few years but if I was, I would be very upset to not be able to use my Vetrolin. Call me naive - but why would liniments be banned - what is in them that constitutes cheating?


If your naive, I am naive also... I have no idea why these would be banned. I am very upset!

Does Vetrolin get in the bloodstream??

[War Admiral]

Go here (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=188243) for the COTH thread, including the USEF responses.

Camphor is banned. (So I'm guessing you couldn't use Tuttle's Elixir, either, though nobody has specifically asked about that.)

[Supreme69]

I just use regular Absorbine. Is that bad too???

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

[War Admiral]

I just use regular Absorbine. Is that bad too???

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

Yep. :(

Now, as to plain old witch hazel, I don't know - it doesn't seem to be on the "partial" list. I'm not a current USEF member (I don't join in years I have nothing showing rated), but for anyone who is, it might be worth a phone call or e-mail to the D&M department to see if a witch hazel bracer would clear. If so, Sdlbredfan wins!

[smurphy0806]

Any idea when this passed?

[War Admiral]

You kinda have to read the COTH thread.

Essentially, camphor et al. have been on the banned substances list for quite some time. However, USEF doesn't publish a complete list - you have to CALL and ASK about the specific product you intend to use. (And even then, ISTR they have a "get-out" clause in the rules somewhere that exonerates the Federation from any mistakes made by the person on the USEF end of the phone... Hint: use e-mail...)

The sensitivity of the tests and the list of things they test for changes on a very regular basis. There is no permanent list with threshhold amounts - which IMO there should be, even if they had to change it 6 times a year - you just have to keep calling and asking about EVERY product you use. (Even some of the trendy herbal feeds for IR horses, Yo. Seriously.)

The subject came up b/c someone got a positive using Vetrolin, which is popular w/ the H-J peeps, and someone else e-mailed and asked. Apparently (if somewhat incredibly) the new USEF D&M guy wasn't aware that Vetrolin contains camphor... So there ya go....

[smurphy0806]

The subject came up b/c someone got a positive using Vetrolin, which is popular w/ the H-J peeps, and someone else e-mailed and asked. Apparently (if somewhat incredibly) the new USEF D&M guy wasn't aware that Vetrolin contains camphor... So there ya go....

Thanks for all the information. I already told my trainer about it. It would really stink to get a positive not knowing the rules and using something so stupid.

[War Admiral]

Thanks for all the information. I already told my trainer about it. It would really stink to get a positive not knowing the rules and using something so stupid.

You're welcome - and tell me about it... There was an FEI rider (I actually forget who...) that got busted at the Olympics for using Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin (banned by FEI *and* USEF), DESPITE the manufacturer's "Will Not Test" label on the product. So the moral of the story is, don't necessarily go by what the manufacturer's labeling says, either - just call or e-mail the Federation if in doubt.

A lot of times what will happen when you do call is, they'll say "We don't know, but we'll find out and get back to you." Then THEY call the manufacturer, who won't disclose the ingredients to Joe Public but usually will disclose them to the NGB.

I sure do wish they would provide us with threshhold amounts though!

[Smplystrkng]

This is the silliest thing I have heard of. I cool all my horses out with a combo of vetrolin and water in the summer. I also use Sore no More, which is an all natural herbal liniment. What's next??????????

[SaddlebredMom]

Totally absurd. :glare: The fact that their list of published banned/restricted substances is from 2007 alone tells you a lot. I can totally understand why people/shows don't want to be USEF affiliated any more.

[5Gatd]

Jeanie you asked about Witch Hazel and that is permitted under USEF and FEI Regulations according to the e-mail I just got from my USEF inquiry about all this madness. So I guess I'll have to switch from Bigeloil to Witch Hazel for my after workout routine, grrrr!!!! I asked if there was a list besides the 2007 list published, but did not get an answer to that e-mail question and didn't ask while on the phone, don't think there is such an animal :(


excerpt from USFEF response:

Witch Hazel is permitted under USEF Rules and FEI Regulations.


What are the ingredients please of the Vetrolin preparation that you would like to use?

I got a response asking me to call them, which I did, I told the rep that I have used Vetrolin liniment mixed in a bucket of warm water to rinse my horses off after workouts and was told it is not permitted w/in 7 days prior to a USEF and/or FEI regulated show. I asked if it was because it masked sore muscles and all she kept saying was because of plant ingredients in Vetrolin enhance the horse's performance.


Sincerely,
(I deleted the name here, but can supply by PM if necessary)
United States Equestrian Federation
The Equine Drugs and Medications Program

[War Admiral]

Excellent news, 5gated, thanks for checking on that. And Jeanie, you win! :D

[walkinghorseowner]

It seems nowadays anything one uses to make a horse comfortable and prevent injuries "enhances their performance".... well duh, of course a sound well taken care of , happy horse will perform better than a horse that has sore muscles and other common ailments from routine work.....

[SaddlebredMom]

excerpt from USFEF response:
. . . because of plant ingredients in Vetrolin enhance the horse's performance.

Seriously . . . . :001_huh: :glare: :rolleyes:

[Smplystrkng]

Performance enhancing?? Wow...well isn't working/training your horse performance enhancing too? Pretty soon we will have to bring them straight from the field and hop on!LOL

[War Admiral]

Well, the slight upside, insofar as there is one, is how much money we're all gonna save not buying liniments! Bigeloil's about 12 bucks, Vetrolin about 9, witch hazel - 3 or less. I can always get behind saving money... to a point anyway...

[SmartAlex]

Performance enhancing?? Wow...well isn't working/training your horse performance enhancing too? Pretty soon we will have to bring them straight from the field and hop on!LOL

Well that will sure make things easier!

[Supreme69]

I have always rubbed them down after a workout with water and absorbine. Oh well, I guess I still can, just have to stop 7 days before a USEF show. What will they come up with next?

Jana
Cres-Or-Lar Stable

[Paddy's Girl]

How about Absorbine Refreshmint. It's just alcohol, witch hazel and menthol. I don't believe it has any camphor in it.

[5Gatd]

How about Absorbine Refreshmint. It's just alcohol, witch hazel and menthol. I don't believe it has any camphor in it.

Absorbine Refreshmint....a blend of natural spearmint, menthol, witch hazel in alcohol, cools and refreshes (Googled and found this on Equine Quality Care website). Whoa, spearment might make 'em feel good, so performance is enhanced and is it the right kind of alcohol and who knows about the menthol????!!!!! Sadly that is how bad this has gotten :glare:

[War Admiral]

I know, I know...and the punch line is, we still have ALLOWABLE limits of NSAIDs. Go figure...

[dedicatedhorsemom]

My trainer was absolutely shocked when I showed this to him today. Thanks trot friends for the heads up!

[Smplystrkng]

I wonder how the liniment companies feel about his? Especially ones that are completely all natural and herbal?

[Renae]

Herbs are still drugs, they are where most of our modern drugs come from, modern drugs just being a more refined form.

But it seems from the posts here that camphor is the current drug which the drug test is utlra sensitive too? The day is coming when we will not be able to touch our horses except in a clean room wearing a full hazmat suit.

[smurphy0806]

I don't know what it is. Its not JUST camphor. I sent an email to USEF with a BUNCH of liniment products and their ingredients. Products that according to the 2007 prohibited ingredients were OK. I got an email back about every single one saying to stop using it 7 days prior to showing. All of the ones in question didn't even have camphor in it.

I would not use ANY liniment. Regardless of camphor or not. Poultice seemed to be OK though. But let me stress the seemed.



On a side-note. I was being a smart-alec and I asked if I could give my horse some vitamens because she was just really annoying me. And I thought it was very interesting that they don't say you are allowed to use it.... She wrote me an email back adressing everything that was illegal, but failed to state that the vitamens were LEGAL. I thought that was the most weasle way around it.

[Smplystrkng]

Ok, so let me ask this. When used as a brace, AFTER a performance, does it actually enter the bloodstream?

[SaddlebredMom]

The day is coming when we will not be able to touch our horses except in a clean room wearing a full hazmat suit.

Too true! :nuke:

[canter]

Hmmm........Farnam (Vetrolin Shine) sponsors the USEF Horse of the Year Award......

And Absorbine is a USEF sponsor of horse shows (not ASB's) and features a full page glossy color ad in the magazine every issue (as well as Farnam's ads) ........

Hmmmm........

[Silly Filly]

I think it's amusing that a bunch of people who probably wake up by having a cup of coffee (caffeine), and take ibuprofen (pain killer), maybe even rub Ben Gay (liniment) on a sore muscle, can't relate to a horse having a sponge down with liniment, or eat a peppermint (masking agent).

[kmmed1]

This is the reply I got from Farnam, when I asked about Vetrolin and the USEF rules. My original emial asked about camphor being the problem, so I asked her to contact the USEF for clarification of the problem with Vetrolin:

Dear Karen,



Thank you for your email.



Farnam is continually monitoring the demanding changes of the industry and the different substance rules of the many federations.



Currently the formula for Vetrolin Liniment is being looked at but the camphor may play a major role in the way the product works and we will not be able to change the formula if that is the case. This product has been around for many years and there are many people who trust and rely on the product to work as it always has. On the other hand, if the camphor can be removed and the product work as well as it always has, it is something we will be looking at.



We do appreciate you bringing this matter to our attention and we will continue to work diligently to come to a conclusion.



Thank you for contacting Farnam Companies, Inc.





Sherri Pike

[mskyar]

I think it's amusing that a bunch of people who probably wake up by having a cup of coffee (caffeine), and take ibuprofen (pain killer), maybe even rub Ben Gay (liniment) on a sore muscle, can't relate to a horse having a sponge down with liniment, or eat a peppermint (masking agent).

Amen... :yes: :D I mean really what is the world coming to :blush:. Has anybody on COTH or anywhere else checked to see if this has happened at racetracks? It would be interesting to see if it has. And who is to say that 7 days will be long enough? In the case of Procaine-Penicillin, test-able traces can stay in a horses system for more than a month. I know, it happened to my brother-in-law at the track....(he won his case with the proof that the filly hadn't had an injection for 6 weeks prior to her race)

[snowfool]

When I first read this post, it disgusted me that USEF had to put limitations into place of this magnitude. I've thought about it since yesterday and have decided I'm no longer disgusted with USEF - instead I'm disgusted that the level of cheating is to the point that these measures have to be put into place by USEF. I remember when I had to stop feeding peppermints to horses at shows and although I'm not a big hand feeder, I like to treat my horses occasionally, particularly when at a show because it's where our horses work the hardest. One by one our privileges are being removed, not because USEF is trying to be the bad guy, but because the bad guys/cheaters are forcing USEF to take stronger and stronger action to try and keep the playing field level (a daunting task to say the least). We all know this is going to continue to happen because of the few who think that the almighty blue ribbon should be garnered by chemical enhancement/cheating.

As far as breed shows are concerned, I'd rather pay the extra fees to show at a USEF rated show than an unrated one because of what can and will occur if USEF's control measures aren't in place (and I'm speaking totally from past experiences on this). I love a good body brace for my horse after coming out of a class and Vetrolin has always been my favorite to use, but if I ever get back in the show ring, isopropyl alcohol will work good enough for me. (Unless they make that illegal :tongue_smilie: )

[lshiely]

I am sorry that this is slightly off topic, but I need to know. Would feeding your horse peppermints put it in danger of failing a drug test? Kim's show horses are all quite spoiled (in a very good way, the ones that have a tendancy to nip or might think about it are not given treats, the rest are in your pocket and extremely happy and friendly, always at the front of their stalls), but we certainly don't want to take any chances if this could cause issues on the tests. We can switch to carrots if we know there is an issue.

[kmmed1]

Leslie, the general rule of thumb is that you would have to feed your 1000 pound animal 100 peppermints in an hour prior to competion for it to test. And I don't think that would test, I would hate to think that the amount of peppermint oil in a peppermint would amount to much to a horse. Just don't feed them prior to showing, if you are worried. Clearance time to be on the safe side is 17 hours.

[vlayne]

I usually use Bigeloil and Vetrolin at home, sometimes Tuttles. For shows I guess I'll have to switch to an old favorite - green rubbing alcohol and vinegar. Great for the coat and refreshing. Probably not as good as liniment but hey, it's something!

[smurphy0806]

And who is to say that 7 days will be long enough? In the case of Procaine-Penicillin, test-able traces can stay in a horses system for more than a month.

Because I have written proof that USEF says 7 days prior to a show. And so if I use something less than 7 days, and get caught you bet I will raise it to high heaven. And if anyone else gets caught they can use my email as Proof. 7 days is what they said. I asked about all sorts of liniments because I want PROOF. I am not having my ribbon/title taken away because I used liniment a week before the show.

[SmartAlex]

But how can you prove you stopped 7 days before the show? It is hard enough to prove something that did happen, much less something that didn't happen.

[SaddlebredMom]

Leslie, the general rule of thumb is that you would have to feed your 1000 pound animal 100 peppermints in an hour prior to competion for it to test. And I don't think that would test, I would hate to think that the amount of peppermint oil in a peppermint would amount to much to a horse. Just don't feed them prior to showing, if you are worried. Clearance time to be on the safe side is 17 hours.

Seriously??? :confused:

I can't even believe we are talking about peppermints being illegal!!

[snowfool]

Kmmed is right about the impossible amount of peppermints it would probably take, but as an AOT, I never want someone to misconstrue my feeding a peppermint to a horse on show grounds as an AOT trying to cheat the system. There is a lot of misinformation going around concerning what is and isn't okay to give your horse at shows and it changes somewhat every time the wind blows as to what the facts really are. I always thought it was better to err on the side of caution than to risk putting myself in the wrong light. People are far too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.

[Renae]

Because I have written proof that USEF says 7 days prior to a show. And so if I use something less than 7 days, and get caught you bet I will raise it to high heaven. And if anyone else gets caught they can use my email as Proof. 7 days is what they said. I asked about all sorts of liniments because I want PROOF. I am not having my ribbon/title taken away because I used liniment a week before the show.

Ah, but they will say that 7 days was given as a guideline and then when your horse does test positive they will say that different horses metabolize thing differently and that they are all individuals and that was only given as a guideline and give you the penalty for breaking the rule anyways (varying in severity based on past offenses) because it is a zero tolerance policy.

An Arabian trainer had several horses test positive for a substance that dialates a horse's eyes. This substance can be found in a plant that grows wild in the area where his hay is grown. He was able to prove that plant was in his hay, that he never knew the horses were receiving this drug. He got fined anyways.

[walkinghorseowner]

Personally, all this is becoming like the government....it is out of control over regulation....just because they CAN bloodtest for a zillionth of an amount of a substance should they..... common sense is quickly leaving the building
in the utopianized concept of "leveling the playing field", these organizations are driving the people off.....at some point everyone will get so fed up about what they are able to feed, or use on their horse, they will either quit showing, or if frustrated enough get rid of the horse.... just too much trouble...
a question.... has USEF actually benefited the saddleseat breeds? has the saddleseat discipline grown since USEF took over the AHSA, and had USEF promoted all the different disciplines under its tent.....
IMO if saddle horses/morgan/etc want to use liniments and see no need to ban some other substances..then form you own group and tailor the needs to the saddleseat world....

[Renae]

Here it is directly from the USEF Dugs & Meds pamphlet:
The following information is current at the time of this writing. However, the
Federation systematically refines existing drug tests to make them more sensitive,
and it develops new tests. Improved testing procedures are routinely
implemented at any time without prior notice. Therefore, the time guidelines
below might become obsolete as new and more sensitive procedures are
implemented. Reliance upon the following guidelines will not serve as a defense
to a charge of violation of the rule in the event of a positive drug test.

The following information is applicable to most horses and ponies. Nevertheless,
reliance upon it does not guarantee compliance with the rules, since
the response of individual horses and ponies may vary. Exhibitors, owners,
and trainers should consult the drug manufacturer and knowledgeable
veterinarians for up-to-date information and more specific advice concerning
the therapeutic use of a drug or medication for a particular horse or pony.

So in other words we will give you these guidelines, but even if you were following them to the letter and your horse still tested positive for something, they mean nothing. Even if you had no idea your horse was given anything. Even if some random spectator walked by and fed your horse chocolate and your horse tested positive for theobromine and caffeine, you have no defense. Your horse is your responsibility (or the resposibility of the trainer who signed the entry from, and yes, there are trainers out there who refuse to sign entry forms so this stuff can't come back on them) and if it tests positive for anything, even things completely out of your control, you are responsible.

[SaddlebredMom]

Kmmed is right about the impossible amount of peppermints it would probably take, but as an AOT, I never want someone to misconstrue my feeding a peppermint to a horse on show grounds as an AOT trying to cheat the system. There is a lot of misinformation going around concerning what is and isn't okay to give your horse at shows and it changes somewhat every time the wind blows as to what the facts really are. I always thought it was better to err on the side of caution than to risk putting myself in the wrong light. People are far too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.

Wow -- what a sad, sad state of affairs that it has come to this . . . :sad:

[SaddlebredMom]

So in other words we will give you these guidelines, but even if you were following them to the letter and your horse still tested positive for something, they mean nothing. Even if you had no idea your horse was given anything. Even if some random spectator walked by and fed your horse chocolate and your horse tested positive for theobromine and caffeine, you have no defense.

I know I will be reading those lists in the back of the Equestrian with a rather jaundiced eye from now on.

I wonder how well this dragnet type approach works in catching those that are truly intent on drugging, enhancing, cheating, etc., as opposed to ensnaring the blissfully ignorant who used Vetrolin or gave their hard working equine a peppermint treat . . . :rolleyes:

[Silly Filly]

"Exhibitors, owners, and trainers should consult the drug manufacturer and knowledgeable
veterinarians for up-to-date information and more specific advice concerning
the therapeutic use of a drug or medication for a particular horse or pony."

This is so funny! I have a "knowledgeable" veterinarian, but he couldn't get a straight answer from them a few years ago when he called to check on something. He ended up asking me to try to find out what dose of something was acceptable. I pretty much told him it was safer not to give anything, because their rules are not easy to interpret, and are subject to change without notice!

[Peris Mom]

I agree with Walkinghorseowner. The AQHA seems to do very well without being a member of USEF -- DOZENS of shows scheduled just this month around the country. Maybe that's part of why owning a Quarter Horse is so popular?

Just another thought -- fines = $$$$ to USEF. Hmmmm..... :rolleyes:

[pbs]

Let me ask one question, has anyone read were someone has gotten in trouble for testing possitive in the back of the U.S.E.F. magizine? I sure haven't.

[Renae]

Let me ask one question, has anyone read were someone has gotten in trouble for testing possitive in the back of the U.S.E.F. magizine? I sure haven't.

Testing positive for what? Horses get tested positive for a whole slew of things at probably every horse show that the testers show up at, due to the way the drugs & meds rules and testing work right now. Drugs & Meds Rules violations don't appear in the back of every issue of the magazine as the committee does not meet between every publication of the magazine. But when the committee has met and made decisions they are printed. Here is the current list of suspened officials, members, and horses http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Suspension/default.aspx (no break down is given for reasons online).

[Silly Filly]

Let me ask one question, has anyone read were someone has gotten in trouble for testing possitive in the back of the U.S.E.F. magizine? I sure haven't.

You haven't looked very closely then. They list them all of the time. Usually with different fines, suspensions, etc.

[SaddlebredMom]

Let me ask one question, has anyone read were someone has gotten in trouble for testing possitive in the back of the U.S.E.F. magizine? I sure haven't

:001_huh: Oh goodness yes! Some months, depending on how many hearings they've held, there are pages of them. They even report the substances they were "convicted" of administering.

Maybe you're not looking in the right section . . . :confused1:

[SaddlebredMom]

Just another thought -- fines = $$$$ to USEF. Hmmmm..... :rolleyes:

Funny, I was thinking the same thing . . . :sailor:

Ambiguity pays off, and pays off big, because the amount of those fines is not chicken feed (or should that be horse feed! ;) )

[Silly Filly]

The fines will have to get bigger to off-set the loss of advertising revenue from the liniment companies removing their ads from the magazine! (at least I think they should remove their ads)

[kmmed1]

Can I suggest, that you do what I did, and email David O'Connor, president of the USEF, to find out what liniments he is using on his own horses? It wouldn't look too good if he came up with a positive, so I simply asked him politely what I was supposed to use for the 60 training horses we have at DeLovely. I haven't received a reply, but it was an after hours email.
You can find his email at the Contact Us page of www.usef.org .

[5Gatd]

I don't have a problem with drug testing, been there done that, and I'm glad they do it, but it seems to be getting out of hand when this show a substance is legal, but by next week's show it is not and they don't publish that fact. I have no problem following the rules as long as I know what they are without having to call USEF everyday to be sure; this is the biggest problem I have with this whole issue. If I can't use Bigeloil, then so be it, but have it simply/clearly posted on the website...not a 2007 pamphlet.

E-mailing David O'Conner is a good idea Karen, THANK YOU, I hope you get a response and will publish it here for all of us. It might shake up some things if we all did the same thing, but I wonder if it would tick him off so much that he would not respond at all?

[vlayne]

I read the suspension list every month and have NEVER seen anyone suspended for a substance in liniment. Ace, Bute, all kinds of drugs, but never a topical.

How would they test for a topical. A swab? I thought the tests were all urine or blood draws? I would doubt a liniment bath would be absorbed through the skin in quantity enough to test.

I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over this, but it is aggravating.

[kmmed1]

I didn't hear from David, but I did get a reply from the head of the Drugs and Medications department. I would assume my email was forwarded to him. Stephen requested my phone number, so we can talk about the concerns over the use of liniments. I sent him my number, and look forward to speaking with him.
Our vet didn't see how a topical body wash could test either, but I want an explanation from someone at the USEF, since they are the ones sending out the information concerning linaments when you inquire about a products legality.
Cool Pack Green Jelly is legal, and I'm pretty sure Mineral Ice is too, I finally got a full list of ingredients on it, and will send to the USEF, I think their offices may be closed on Monday due to President's Day.

[katie39929]

If we are testing for linaments, why not test for cobra venum? Not being nasty, just asking.....USEF needs to warrant the violations better and make the rules more clear to us all....

[attafox]

Because there's no real test for cobra venom yet ... and, unfortunately, if you have a vet on the USEF drug committee who *knows* what they'll be testing for next, you have the inside track at avoiding tests as well as the lastest and "greatest" drug (and no, I'm not connecting the two together). :hammer:

[Tazsprout]

what seems absurd to me is that there isn't any evidence to show that any of these "enhance" or mask ANYTHING, or in fact do much but create a nice smell that the human enjoys. At the same time, horses in some disiplines are living in ice boots between classes/sessions.

very odd indeed.

[pbs]

I've only seen people fined for injectable drugs and admin. not anything else.

[horseshwbrat]

Peppermints and Linement :helpsmilie: What's next, Show Sheen and Orvis?

and for those of you out there looking for good linement substitutes, rubbing alcohol mixed with any of the following natural muscle relaxers (but you need to check and see if they're testing for it this week) and diluted in water:Basil, Carrot seed, Chamomile Moroc/Roman, Geranium, Lavender, Myrtle, Peppermint.

[kmmed1]

Vetrolin can be used, so all of you can put a stop to the panic button!
I'm supposed to have a conversation tomorrow about the uses of liniments with the USEF, and I'll let you know ASAP

[Renae]

horseshwbrat- chamomile and lavender are on the actual list of forbidden substances printed in the drugs & meds book.

As far as how much topicals leave a detectable amount in blood/urine tests I hope you get a chance to ask USEF that Karen. I think it used to be pretty much a non-issue, but the tests are getting more and more sensitive. One of the jumpers disqualified at the Olympics for a positive drug test was because of a topically applied substance (Equi-block, horse tested positive for capsaicin, label of product says "Will Not Test Positive", product contains 0.025% capsaicin according to the label, I can only imagine how minute the amount the horse had in its actual blood/urine test was), a pony was disqualified from a top pony dressage competition in Europe because of a topical substance (which the competitor, her coach and family claim to have never intentionally put on the pony). One of our Olympic dressage riders was disqualified for a substance in her horse's blood stream that is adminstered topically but that she never gave to the horse and the horse probably aquired from contact from a third party (as in no on intentionally gave it to the horse, someone happened to touch the horse that had it on them).

[horseshwbrat]

Renae - thanks for the heads-up about Chamomile and Lavender. I knew they were on the list at one point, but the list changes so often...!

Too bad the best working oil is Camphor. The most cost-effective left to us is Peppermint oil, but I've heard good things about Grapefruit as well.

What's this about Vetrolin still being allowed? I was reading over on COH and I thought it was banned.

[attafox]

Okay folks, let's get real. If they don't test for ginger on pleasure horses at our shows (which there is a swab test for), and we all *know* (wink, wink) that many are gingered, they probably aren't going to test for many of the substances that are found in topicals. Of course at the FEI level they will run a full blood panel, but it's doubtful that the USEF would go to that type of expense for our regularly-rated shows (maybe L'ville, but the rest?)

[Renae]

Okay folks, let's get real. If they don't test for ginger on pleasure horses at our shows (which there is a swab test for), and we all *know* (wink, wink) that many are gingered, they probably aren't going to test for many of the substances that are found in topicals. Of course at the FEI level they will run a full blood panel, but it's doubtful that the USEF would go to that type of expense for our regularly-rated shows (maybe L'ville, but the rest?)

But we don't know. Do you want to be the one to get your ribbon pulled, get a fine, and possibly get suspended for something you thought was normal horse care? I think the problem most of us have with the extreme that the drug rules are getting to is that we simply do not know what they are. You have to call USEF about every little thing, they will give you a wishy washy answer, and then they don't even stand behind their wishy washy answer should your horse drug test positive even though you were following their guidelines.

[attafox]

Renae, I understand, but some here are running around like Chicken Little. There IS a difference in how they are going to look at FEI (which has zero tolerance) versus our non-Olympic discipline shows.

In the last 10 years, my horses have been drug-tested 5 times total. Last year, the poor woman waited 90 minutes for my mare to pee (she won't pee in front of people). The only irritation there was I was showing out of the trailer and wanted to avoid Friday afternoon traffic - which of course didn't happen because of the drug test (but how do you say "no, I want to go home?").

[kmmed1]

Stephen Shumacher is the Chief Administrator of the Drug and Medications department of the USEF, told me in an email last night that we could use Vetrolin. He is supposed to call me to give me the details about the uses of liniments. I'm still waiting to talk to him.

[kmmed1]

I just wanted to add that I met Stephen when he tested our horses at Louisville, so he is a working vet, not just an administrator.

[Renae]

So if we can use Vetrolin, which contains camphor, a forbidden substance, why not any other liniment?

The rules say
TREATMENT OF ILLNESS OR INJURY WITH A FORBIDDEN SUBSTANCE
Any product is forbidden if it contains an ingredient that is a forbidden substance, or is a drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony as a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or might interfere with drug testing procedures.
So technically using any forbidden substance, wether it shows up in a drug test or is being tested for, is illegal. And anything which could potentially alter your horse's performance is a forbidden substance. So if one wanted to split hairs nearly anything could be considered "performance enhancing".

And attafox I have had a horse drug tested where the testing vet asked, or should I say insisted, upon giving the horse Lasix so that it would pee faster for the drug test. So yes, they wanted to give the horse drugs so that they could test for drugs. No way!

[attafox]

Lasix was offered; and refused.

[kmmed1]

I just got off the phone with Dr. Shumacher, who has been under the weather, which is why he hadn't called. He remembered me from testing our horses at Louisville, and because he's seen my signature so many times on testing forms.
The reason we can still use Vetrolin even though it contains camphor, is it is a topical application, and will not raise the blood levels to a point where it will be considered a performance inhancing product. Stephen is aware of the posts on COTH and other discussion groups, and wants everyone to rest at ease about mosts liniments and body washes. Camphor is illegal when given systemically.
Capsacin, the ingredient in Equi Block is illegal period, regardless of what the label on the product states.

[redwingfarm]

Karen is correct-you can use Vetrolin. The herbs that are listed on the forbidden substances list are there because they show up in herbal suppliment products. So unless you let your horse drink the bottle of Vetrolin-you do not have a problem. The one ingredient that you need to look for in something topical that you are putting on your horse is Capsaicin-it is a pain killer.

Karen is also correct about Steve Shumacher-he was a testing veterinary-and a practicing equine veterinarian-before becoming the Director of the USEF Drugs and Medication program when John Lengel retired. Steve tested the Kentucky State Fair several years-along with other major shows in other breeds.

Judy Werner

[kmmed1]

Thanks Judy, Stephen said he had spoken to you while you were at the convention.
Will someone please post this over on COTH, I'm not going through the whole rigamarole of trying to find my password.

[ASB Stars]

Thought I'd pass along the latest from USEF... No more liniments, effectively... The following ALL will test: Bigeloil, Vetrolin, Sore No More. Bigeloil and Sore No More have been on the Ugly List for quite some time now but Vetrolin is new. Recommendation is to withdraw all of these 7 days prior to showtime.

I know that Sore No More has herbs in it, or I believe that it does- but can someone share the issue with Bigeloil? I haven't used it since dinosaurs roamed the Earth, but I am wondering. In fact, if you can tell us exactly how the aforementioned liniments are affected by this ruling, I would appreciate it!

[Renae]

Does the USEF really expect us and want us to call them about every single product we would like to use on our horses?

If a substance is one of the ones that is on their printed forbidden substances list how are we to know which ones are okay to use topically but not internally?

How is it that someone people call and talk to general staff and get one answer to a question and another person calls and talks straight to the chief adminstrator and gets a different answer?

For those of us who do follow the rules and will make every effort to do so when we know what the rules are, the USEF Drugs & Meds Rules need to be more clear.

[vlayne]

Does the USEF really expect us and want us to call them about every single product we would like to use on our horses?

If a substance is one of the ones that is on their printed forbidden substances list how are we to know which ones are okay to use topically but not internally?

How is it that someone people call and talk to general staff and get one answer to a question and another person calls and talks straight to the chief adminstrator and gets a different answer?

For those of us who do follow the rules and will make every effort to do so when we know what the rules are, the USEF Drugs & Meds Rules need to be more clear.

Well said. That list is useless, especially since the rules apparently change on an hourly basis, and are interpreted differently depending on who you're talking to that minute.

I'd like the list to break down the substance, how much (if any) IS allowed in the horses' system, a recommended time period to discontinue use to allow the drug to drop below the allowed amount, and how the drug might be used LEGALLY (like camphor is legal as a topical but not internally).

And the list needs to be updated the INSTANT a change is made. In today's day and age of instant information, that should NOT be hard.

They expect us to follow rules - but no one knows what they are.

[kmmed1]

I didn't call, but sent various emails concerning different products. Dr. Shumacher recognized my name, and sent me an email asking me for my number. I responded, and he called me this afternoon, he had been ill, and finally got his voice back.
It's called being smart about the applications and uses of a product. Systemically as opposed to topical application, which is why you can use Vetrolin, Bigeoil, and other liniments. They won't test, because they aren't absorbed through the skin, unless you use them with DMSO.
Dr. Shumacher will be sending out a press release concerning the use of liniments, to calm everyone's fears.

[Renae]

It's called being smart about the applications and uses of a product. Systemically as opposed to topical application, which is why you can use Vetrolin, Bigeoil, and other liniments. They won't test, because they aren't absorbed through the skin, unless you use them with DMSO.


So we are expected to be biochemists in order to show our horses?

[ASB Stars]

I kind of think that if you don't plan on feeding your horse liniment, you seem to be ahead of the game.:yes:

In any event, the rules are the rules. Ask Phillip Dutton. It wasn't a "drug" infraction, and it was FEI, but it WAS just ignorance that cost him.

Will that be your excuse?

[asbisme]

I was having a really hard time believing that liniments would be on a banned use list. I was thinking that if the testing had gotten so sensitive as to pick up traces of liniment then we would all have to be EXTREMELY careful with any substance handled around our horses (not that we aren't but you know what I mean). I am glad that Karen was able to get clarification on this and appreciate her doing so.

[attafox]

Who's Phillip Dutton?

[Renae]

I kind of think that if you don't plan on feeding your horse liniment, you seem to be ahead of the game.:yes:

In any event, the rules are the rules. Ask Phillip Dutton. It wasn't a "drug" infraction, and it was FEI, but it WAS just ignorance that cost him.

Will that be your excuse?

I believe he was the one who was using boots for jumping on his horse that weighed too much.

And yes, rules are rules. The drugs & meds rule says camphor is a FORBIDDEN substance. It does not say it is only forbidden if adminstered to a horse internally. To me forbidden means just that, you can not use, in any way. Now if there is someone at USEF saying well its only kind of forbidden that just makes that water so much murkier.

[ASB Stars]

I'm guessing the horse was pretty fit, as Phillip is one of the top event riders in the world, but the boots, sadly, were over the weight that is allowed.

And, as we all know, that makes horses pick up their legs higher- even when jumping, so, alas, he was spun out of contention at the Olympics.

[D_BaldStockings]

Phillip had no excuse; how hard is it to check the weight of boots?
I'll bet someone 'just assumed' which of course is the kiss of death when it comes to precision measurement.

...and I have to laugh, too, about those being normal training gear while Saddleseat weighted training gear are 'abusive'. Must be a matter of perspective.

[vlayne]

Karen, it's wonderful that he responded to you because he recognized your name. What about those of us who are but peons in the world of horse shows? :huh:

I highly doubt that Dr. Shumacher would personally call each one of us if we'd all leave voicemails for him... maybe I'm just cynical... :ninja:

But as I said, they have a responsibility to their members and all exhibitors to provide EASILY UNDERSTOOD guidelines that are kept UP TO DATE.

[aimhigher]

I love non rated horse shows for this reason. Its all about getting FINE money with these people. I have talked to good people who have been to court with these people. It is a kangaroo court. If you get in trouble with these people innocently as it may have been you are going to pay a big fine and they will win. They have set it all up for them to win and for them to get a lot of your money. Horse abusers deserve this. Innocent people who want to give there beloved animal a nice liniment bath do not. They want to bust me for giving a nice peppermint smelling liniment bath to my horse . It isnt going to happen. they dont bust you for anything there sponsors who support them promote. They say they will but they wont. I know of a case in point I am not at liberty to talk about because it is not my case in point. But they are very selective about what they bust you for. The fine business with usef is very oprganized and big business$$$$$ for them. I have no respect for that organization at all and grimace everytime I have to pay my dues to compete at "there" horse shows. And I use the term "there" very very loosely.

[kmmed1]

aimhigher, I'm sorry you feel this way about the USEF. While I don't always agree with their policies, they do give us a more of a level playing field than nonrecognized shows do. If you compete at at nonrecognized show, are you competeing at an equal basis with other horses? Do you know what it might have been given to enhance its performance? Tranquilers, caffeine, uppers downers, the possibilities boggle the mind. I have access to most of these drugs, don;t use them, but i could if I wanted to. Do you have access? Are you willing to compete at a show where there are no ruiles?
Thje USEF isn't perfect. this debacle over the use of Vetrolin and other liniments proof it.
the best we can do is to continue to ask more questions, until we come up with the right answers foir all involved.

[attafox]

aimhigher - don't you mean "their" horse shows?

On a more serious note - those organizations that have broken away from the USEF (or been cast out - such as the TWH) have far worse drug issues. And, in California, every show, no matter the size is subject to drug testing - and if it isn't USEF rated, we don't know what we're being tested for.

[walkinghorseowner]

Please note that TWH does not have "drug problems"..... in random testing the last 2 years at the Celebration and a couple of other shows we did not find this...... we are working on developing a hopefullly "sane" method of drug testing and identifying drugs that shoud not be used......
The problem with leveling the playing field, is the overzealousness of some.... the playing field will be so level there will be no one left competing, not due to the cheating, but because people will be fed up with all the BS it takes to show a horse.......and quit....
common sense seems to be in short supply....

[LLavery]

Trot Members,

As I currently sit on the Drugs & Medications Committee of the USEF as UPHA liaison, I think it is appropriate for me to comment on your liniment concerns. To began most liniments contain substances that appear on the list of forbidden substances. Two that come to mind with the products in question (Absorbine, Vetrolin and Sore-No-More) are Capsaican and Camphor. Used as directed, topically, one would hope there would be no problem. However, even in the most recent FEI competitions, positive tests for Capsaican have come up. Although it should not enter the bloodstream if used as directed, (Not injected, ingested or applied with the use of an "accelerate" such as DMSO) several horses tested positive. It is therefore the recommendation that products containing Capsaican, not be used in conjunction with a USEF competition. Of the three products mentioned, only Sore-No-More contains this substance.
Although Camphor also is on the forbidden list, the USEF believes there has never been a horse tested positive when it was used in a topical liniment. It is the USEF's position that the prudent use, as directed, of Absorbine and Vetrolin should not present a problem.
Additionally, the USEF is not an elitist organization caring only about money. (It would startle you to know how much each test costs.) It is your organization as well. As members, you may utilize the Email hot line, MEDEQUESTRIAN@AOL.COM or the telephone hot line (800) 633-2473 at any time you desire answers to questions exactly like this. I happen to feel Karen is pretty important too but if she had used any name, she would have gotten some form of an answer to her question, although, maybe not from Dr. Steve. You may also request the free D&M handbook which goes into great detail on the policies etc. of the USEF concerning medications, testing, forbidden substances, etc.
The "kangaroo" court that was mentioned is actually a hearing committee composed by members of many disciplines, most all of whom have been in the trenches showing horses and are aware all things horse show. At this time I believe 3 are Saddlebred and Hackney people. You read of the cases where a penalty was justifiably levied after fair representation by both sides. You do not read of the cases "thrown out". Unlike the TWH which has elected to deal with the federal government doling out the penalties, which can include jail time, I think a fine or the possibility of being set down, is enough deterrent for us. Any organization that has rules that must be enforced, is often looked upon with disfavor as sometimes the USEF is. On the whole, however, without them the sport of showing horses would truly not be as good as it is today. I hope this helps.

LF Lavery

[smurphy0806]

Although Camphor also is on the forbidden list, the USEF believes there has never been a horse tested positive when it was used in a topical liniment. It is the USEF's position that the prudent use, as directed, of Absorbine and Vetrolin should not present a problem.
Additionally, the USEF is not an elitist organization caring only about money. (It would startle you to know how much each test costs.) It is your organization as well. As members, you may utilize the Email hot line, MEDEQUESTION@AOL.COM or the telephone hot line (800) 633-2473 at any time you desire for answers to questions exactly like this.


Thanks for the information. However, as soon as I read this "rumor," as that is all I believed it was until I saw proof, I went to the USEF website, and found the email address you listed. I asked them if I could use vetrolin and gave the ingredients. I also informed her that this was a topical application.

The representative responding to the emails told me I could not use Vetrolin at an USEF sanctioned event, and to stop using 7 days prior to the competition.

I then gave ingredients for several other liniments including Equi-Block(R) Liniments by Miracle Corp, Thermaflex Liniment Gel by VitaFlex(R), Veterinary Liniments by Absorbine and all were not acceptable. I was trying to find a liniment that I could use that did not contain camphor. The first 2 I thought were legal since they had no ingredients (at least on the list of ingredients I found online) that were on the forbidden substance page. And they were still illegal.

I think the problem here is that aside from USEF, no one knows what is legal and illegal. There is a very out of date prohibited substance page. I understand things change often, but even if the list had an "as of X/XX/XXXX these ingredients are illegal, subject to change at USEF's discretion" and updated the list bi-annual that would be helpful. The list is accurate as of 2007.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I want to know if I can use it or can't. I don't want to use the substance and then get fined later on. I don't want a "we think," because that doesn't do me any good if I test positive. Honestly, I want a yes or no answer from USEF about Vetrolin used as a topical substance without the aid of an "accelerate" such as DMSO. And if its No, I may go pout on the corner, but I wont use it. And that's fine, but the problem here is some people at USEF say no, and others say "we think." And as a member of USEF that is VERY confusing. So hopefully USEF will come out with a press release and state exactly if Vetrolin is legal or illegal when used as a topical substance without the aid of an accelerate.

[WC for Me]

Karen, it's wonderful that he responded to you because he recognized your name. What about those of us who are but peons in the world of horse shows? :huh:

I highly doubt that Dr. Shumacher would personally call each one of us if we'd all leave voicemails for him... maybe I'm just cynical... :ninja:



vlayne I quit "talking" on forums awhile ago because it seems everybody wants to "voice their opinion" no matter how educated or uneducated it may be but nobody ever wants to really "hear" what is being said......that being said I have to break my silence for this thread because for like a week now Karen has come into the barn in the morning and while we clean stalls she tells me the latest about these "discussions" over the banned substances.

What amuses me most about your post is that you've assumed Karen has used her many many years working for one of the largest barns to get a straight answer from the head of D&M at USEF when actually it appears Karen was the only one who went about this matter smartly and e-mailed practically EVERYONE at USEF (including President David O'Connor.....by the way, Karen did you ever get an e-mail back :tt2: ) and nearly all the companies that make some form of linament. We also scoured the barn reading the labels of every type of linament we had here (Tuttle's, Mineral Ice, Vetrolin, Absorbine Gel).....I know because I wrote the ingredients of several down on index cards for Karen so she could e-mail them to USEF to find out if it was legal or not. Admittedly we were in a panic when nobody was getting a good, solid answer from USEF.....do you know how many GALLONS of Vetrolin we go through at DeLovely during the summer? I assure you it's a lot.

So Karen e-mailed everyone on the D&M committee including head of D&M, Dr. Shumacher, who was a drug tester at Louisville for a couple years just a year or two ago. Again, do you realize how often the drug testers are back at the DeLovely barn during Louisville? By the end of Louisville last year I think I knew every drug testers name and they knew nearly all of the caretakers at DeLovely's names. So it doesn't suprise me in the least that Dr. S remembered Karen's name and ended up having a nice long conversation with her regarding this linament nonsense (amongst other drug questions)......would he have remembered some "peon" as you've stated yourself to be? Probably not, but hey why get mad about the fact that someone finally got a SOLID answer to this nonsense of illegal linament. I believe Dr. S also told Karen he'd be sending out some sort of press release clearing up the mass confusion this has caused.

Anyways, instead of getting frustrated that someone "used their reputation" to get a straight answer just be glad that they shared the knowledge they gained by talking to the higher ups at USEF. Hell I use Karen's invaluable knowledge on all things medically and/or drug related daily......just ask and she will most likely answer or will do everything she can to get an answer for you, unless of course you've made her mad haha.

Now that I've rambled on I'm just going to go back to being silent again *stepping off soapbox*

[ASB_EQ_Gal]

I read through this whole thread and have a question not about the liniments but about the peppermints. What is this about? My question is can we give our horses peppermints after their class because of praise or no? Is it forbidden? I read over the posts about it and tried to grasp the information but was a bit confused. Is this something that owners that use peppermints as treats need to be aware of? Thanks.

Also, any word on when the press release will be "released".

[vlayne]

vlayne I quit "talking" on forums awhile ago because it seems everybody wants to "voice their opinion" no matter how educated or uneducated it may be but nobody ever wants to really "hear" what is being said......that being said I have to break my silence for this thread because for like a week now Karen has come into the barn in the morning and while we clean stalls she tells me the latest about these "discussions" over the banned substances.

What amuses me most about your post is that you've assumed Karen has used her many many years working for one of the largest barns to get a straight answer from the head of D&M at USEF when actually it appears Karen was the only one who went about this matter smartly and e-mailed practically EVERYONE at USEF (including President David O'Connor.....by the way, Karen did you ever get an e-mail back :tt2: ) and nearly all the companies that make some form of linament. We also scoured the barn reading the labels of every type of linament we had here (Tuttle's, Mineral Ice, Vetrolin, Absorbine Gel).....I know because I wrote the ingredients of several down on index cards for Karen so she could e-mail them to USEF to find out if it was legal or not. Admittedly we were in a panic when nobody was getting a good, solid answer from USEF.....do you know how many GALLONS of Vetrolin we go through at DeLovely during the summer? I assure you it's a lot.

So Karen e-mailed everyone on the D&M committee including head of D&M, Dr. Shumacher, who was a drug tester at Louisville for a couple years just a year or two ago. Again, do you realize how often the drug testers are back at the DeLovely barn during Louisville? By the end of Louisville last year I think I knew every drug testers name and they knew nearly all of the caretakers at DeLovely's names. So it doesn't suprise me in the least that Dr. S remembered Karen's name and ended up having a nice long conversation with her regarding this linament nonsense (amongst other drug questions)......would he have remembered some "peon" as you've stated yourself to be? Probably not, but hey why get mad about the fact that someone finally got a SOLID answer to this nonsense of illegal linament. I believe Dr. S also told Karen he'd be sending out some sort of press release clearing up the mass confusion this has caused.

Anyways, instead of getting frustrated that someone "used their reputation" to get a straight answer just be glad that they shared the knowledge they gained by talking to the higher ups at USEF. Hell I use Karen's invaluable knowledge on all things medically and/or drug related daily......just ask and she will most likely answer or will do everything she can to get an answer for you, unless of course you've made her mad haha.

Now that I've rambled on I'm just going to go back to being silent again *stepping off soapbox*

Um, no point in even getting ON your soapbox. Karen implied that he responded to her because he KNEW her. I was being facetious in my response that she got an answer because she's "someone."

Have you read the LONG thread on COTH? Where people who are even more well known than Karen have tried to get straight answers from USEF to no avail?

This is not about Karen, this is about USEF being unorganized and providing different answers to each person who DOES call or email.

Regardless, I still stand firm in my stance that USEF needs to get their act together, publish a concise and detailed list and keep it accurate at all times.

[JTaylor14]

I just wanted to say Thank You Karen for clearing this all up and spending your time figuring it all out. And even if Karen did get it for who she is she still took the time out to find all of the different liniments and email who knows how many people so maybe people should be more thankful for Karen getting a straight answer and sharing it with all of us.

[vlayne]

Since everyone ELSE who is contacting USEF is getting different responses, I'm going to put my "thanks to Karen" on hold until we see a press release from USEF. :tt2:

Really - which USEF representative do we believe? The several that COTH and trot members are hearing one story from, or the guy Karen has talked to? I trust Karen and the response she got is the one I believe to be correct, but come on USEF. Get your act together!

So thank you Karen for your EFFORT. Thank you to everyone ELSE who has ALSO called and gotten the OPPOSITE response, for YOUR efforts. You ALL deserve kudos for being proactive. :clap:

[Sit]

Thank you Karen and Mr. LL for providing the information. And a special thanks to Mr. LL for serving on the USEF Committee. Thank goodness, some of our most knowledgeable people are willing to serve for the good of our Breed.

As far as the USEF in general (from someone who claims to show more often than just about anyone), I feel comfortable at USEF shows because of the defined judging criteria that are applied, the steward who (usually very informally) reminds us of the make-up and show ring protocol, the ability to formally complain about judging through the use of the USEF form (which I have only done once in the last decade with prompt and good results from the USEF), drug testing (which always makes us a little nervous even though we show well within all the rules), and the knowledge that I have to behave myself (my wife's exhortation to "Rein it in, Bubba!" is not always enough of a deterrent) or there could be consequences. I also like the discounts that I get with my membership.

If we step back, the USEF Rules are aimed at a fair and level playing field, safety of the horses and riders, and the best interests of the horses. Are there some medication Rules that go too far? Probably, but we must always be conscious of the importance of regulating ourselves by horse people, rather than provoking some deserved or undeserved regulation by clueless government bureaucrats.

The Drugs and Medications Guidelines are clear on the most common medications. My family has used Absorbine for at least 70 years or so and I guess we will just be careful in our use and apply it sparingly if we use it. It sure does smell good to me (and makes my hands tingle) and I think it helps to rub a little on when wrapping legs. But if I had enough swelling or whatever to think that I had to use it a lot, I'd probably just decide that I probably ought not to show the horse in any event.

The longer I do this (show), the more we have gotten away from some stuff in the make-up ring and at the shows and the more we listen to our horses and let them show naturally. Horses seem to show better and happier to me all the time, so I think we are headed in the right direction.

-- JMO

P.S. to Mr. LL: What's this GR 413 ("Human Drug Testing")? Does that mean no Absorbine Junior on me, no gin and tonics, no nicotine, and no caffeine at the shows? Heck, I'm through, if that is the case.

[SaddlebredMom]

P.S. to Mr. LL: What's this GR 413 ("Human Drug Testing")? Does that mean no Absorbine Junior on me, no gin and tonics, no nicotine, and no caffeine at the shows? Heck, I'm through, if that is the case.

Great -- now we have to figure out what the "human drug rules" are too?? :hammer:

[saddlebreds_and_buses]

Performance enhancing?? Wow...well isn't working/training your horse performance enhancing too? Pretty soon we will have to bring them straight from the field and hop on!LOL

And of course with no saddle, bridle or shoes. Those would be too performance enhancing!!

:lol: :lol:

[aimhigher]

Oh my no gin and tonics . No scotch and no tylenol or advil . I can't even get on the horse at my age without a little of all of that so I am doomed to the buggy earlier than I suspected.

[aimhigher]

Well, sorry, I seem to have forgotten my theirs and theres. Suffice to say that Usef has left me with less of a warm and cozy feeling than people who I admit know more than me about the goings on behind the scenes at USEF. I will defer to the honorable Mr. LL as he is truly a man of great intelligience and if he says I am wrong on this issue then I consider myself pretty much wrong. Common sense tells me that the organization in question will not start fining and writing people up for over the counter liniments. Until they start doing that, I will keep my mouth shut and get back to work ! :yes: :yes: :yes:

[LLavery]

Sit,

When Jack Daniels joins the forbidden list..I will finally take up Golf!!!

LFL

[SmartAlex]

If they ever started testing the exhibitors for alcohol and pain killers, a whole bunch of us would have to quit.

[kmmed1]

I emailed Dr. Shumacher last night, here is his reply:
Thanks Karen. I agree, there’s been quite a bit of chatter. I’m out of town right now, but have been discussing the issue with a number of committee members and developing a response that will hopefully quell the prevalent concern.

I’m hoping to release something Monday if not sooner.

Thanks again,

Stephen

[roadpony]

Press release issued by USEF on March 2, 2009:

D&M Program Notice Regarding Use of Liniments

By Dr. Stephen Schumacher

Recently, there have been some questions related to the use of liniments. The specific liniments in question are:

Equi-Block® Liniments by Miracle Corp.
Ingredients:
Menthol (3%), Purified Water, Isopropyl Alcohol, Chamomile Extract, Polysorbate 80, Olibanum Extract, Rosemary Oil, Capsicum Oleoresin, Carbomer, Trolamine, Methylparaben.

Thermaflex Liniment Gel by VitaFlex®
Ingredients:
Menthol 4.0%, Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), Plant Extracts of Calendula and Rosemary, Oil of Cajuput (Melaleuca Leucadendron), Other Ingredients include: Alcohol, Water, Thickeners, Benzyl Nicotinate, FD&C Yellow #5 and FD&C Blue #1.

Vetrolin® Liniment by Farnam
Ingredients:
Alcohol, Water, Green Soap, Camphor, Oil of Sassafras, Oil of Spike, Methyl Salicylate, Oil of Cedarwood, Oil of Rosemary and Oil of Thyme.

(Forbidden substances are noted in italics.)

The classification of these substances as Forbidden is neither a new policy nor a recent development. Some of the ingredients in the above listed liniments have been Forbidden substances for more than 20 years. These substances, and products containing them, are classified as Forbidden because of their potential actions on various body systems when administered intravenously, intramuscularly, subcutaneously or orally. However, when used topically and as recommended by their manufacturers, these products have not been associated with a positive by the Federation.

As a practical matter, provided the products containing these substances are administered only topically and as recommended by the manufacturer, there is no need for restricting their use during competitions under USEF rules. However, if these substances are used inappropriately (e.g., in a manner other than topically), this could result in a positive finding in the blood or urine of the horse, which would be a potential violation of the rules.

One exception is the substance capsaicin and closely related analogues (e.g., Capsicum Oleoresin as found in Equi-Block®.) There were four drug violations associated with the detection of capsaicin in the blood following topical administration at the 2008 Olympic Games. Neither of these substances or other capsaicin derivatives should be used topically in any poultice or liniment within the 7 days preceding competition.

It is important to note that many preparations produced for the equine market routinely have their formulations changed without any published notice. It is for this reason that the USEF Equine Drugs and Medications Program typically does not comment on products by name, but requests lists of ingredients. It would be irresponsible for the USEF to list name brand products as Forbidden or Permitted as there is no control or notification of changes in their ingredients.

Please contact the Equine Drugs and Medications Program office by phone (800) 633-2472 or by e-mail at medequestrian@aol.com if there are any questions regarding additional liniments than those addressed above.

Dr. Stephen Schumacher

ENDS

[jslilley]

Thanks Susan!