Twins

[smurphy0806]

How many of you have come into contact with Twins. I just found out someone I knew works at a farm (Oak Ridge Arabians) that had twins. All 3 survived. The babies will be 1 year in March.

I havn't seen them in person, so this is all 2nd hand from the person that works there. They were slightly smaller than normal foals, but NOT as small as "normal twins" are. I just find it very interesting and I was wondering who else has seen something like this. Here are pictures of them. Now they are starting to catch up to "normal" size.

[jslilley]

You've been too busy rescuing horses - twins = 2 not 3 babies (and it looks there are only two in the pics).

Couldn't resist!

I personally have not had experience with them but have read and seen some "down the road". Most you would never know had a rough go but some remained smaller than their other siblings.

Stacie

[attafox]

All 3 meaning mom and both babies ...:innocent:

[SmartAlex]

Back in 1983-84, my Grandmother's saddlebred mare had half Arab twins. They also survived even though at that time the statistics were 99.9% against their survival.
Filly was 76 pounds, colt was 42 pounds.
The colt was always on the small size but otherwise sound and healthy. The filly had a hard road. She was a little dim, and ended up with joint problems. She was very very good natured though. We ended up calling her Peggy (as in pegleg) because she only had one good leg. She was serviceable though, and ended up as a camp horse for small children/beginners.

I always made the analogy that they were the equivalent of one good horse, but in two bodies, and it wasn't far off.

[jslilley]

All 3 meaning mom and both babies ...:innocent:

I am allowed one since it's my birthday. We'll just attribute it to too much driving yesterday but sooo worth it to save a horse!

[smurphy0806]

The mom was a maiden mare before this pregnancy. No one know she was pregnant with twins. She didn't look that big, just "normal" for a new mom.

The two foals were born approximately the same size and weight.

ETA: Funny thing is... The owner has twin humans... a boy and girl. :) And the pinto is Beth (filly) and the Chestnut is Seth (colt)

[SmartAlex]

Our mare didn't look like she was going to foal at all one month prior. but then, she was a big mare. The thing is, the two foals combined usually are the same aproximate weight as one normal healthy foal. You wouldn't expect to have a mare doubly large.

[WishMeLuckJSH]

When I worked at Rood & Riddle we had a mare who had twins and they both survived! I can't remember what breed, but both babies were jet black and the. cutest. things. ever. It was sooooo much fun to go into that stall and help them feed! Talk about a crowded stall! :001_smile:

[attafox]

Country Flicka (star of Flicka, the movie) was also a twin ... I would imagine that her twin survived, because she was registered as well.

[smurphy0806]

Our mare didn't look like she was going to foal at all one month prior. but then, she was a big mare. The thing is, the two foals combined usually are the same aproximate weight as one normal healthy foal. You wouldn't expect to have a mare doubly large.

I would, Hehe! When people have twins they are usually larger... Right? Or is that just a rumor? I am not familiar with human or horsey twins. The closest I have ever come is my best friend's mom is a twin. Haha. But that's it.

MORE twin stories! Pictures are welcome too!

[katie]

My childhood best friend's eventer was a twin! I want to say that there was something funky with the registry, because he was a TB ... They had to be registered as the same horse? Or only one of them could be registered? I don't remember, but they both survived. He was half dumb and gave her a lot of trouble! I think the other one was a pretty cool & competitive children's hunter, though.

[Renae]

Just because there are a few nice stories about twins living, the mare living and everyone being healthy doesn't mean you should not have mares ultrasounded early in the pregnancy (14 days) and have a twin abated if present. Often times twins go undetected as the mare aborts the pregnancy in the early stages. I have had a twin abated on 3 mares and all went on to have 1 normal, healthy foal.

[SmartAlex]

Speaking of twin horses. This article is fascinating...

http://www.aqha.com/magazines/aqhj/content/06february/oneinamillion.pdf

[smurphy0806]

Speaking of twin horses. This article is fascinating...

http://www.aqha.com/magazines/aqhj/content/06february/oneinamillion.pdf

Wow, That is so cool. Talk about "twins" living!

[horseluvr]

We had a Saddlbred mare foal twins several years ago - we heard the mare's water break and hubby ran out to the barn - she had produced two bays - a large colt and smaller filly. The colt was dead and according to the vet never took a breath. The mare and filly were fine. In the following years, the mare had to have a twin "pinched" off as soon as it was possible to tell she was carrying twins. I have been told that once a mare produces twins, the chances increas of her doing so again.

[oneasbfan]

I work at a veterinary hospital and we just had a mare in this last weekend that was pregnant with twins and one of the foals had ruptured the uterine horn he was in and ended up in the mares abdomen. Of course she was euthanized. I have no hard numbers but I would image a very small number of twins make it to term.

Julie

[redwingfarm]

While the pictures and stories about twin horses can be appealing-more often than not the result of giving-or trying to give-birth to twins is life threating to the mare and the foals. If carried to term-one twin is often dead at birth-and more times than not the mare's reproductive tract is damanged. Too often-the mare does not survive the ordeal.

The advent of the Ultra Sound Machine has made it so much easier to manage twins-and as several people have already posted-aborting one twin more often than not allows the twin that is left to grow and survive birth.

[smurphy0806]

Don't get me wrong... I'm not advocating letting both twins survive. I don't really know enough on ths subject to make a real opinion.
I just wanted to know stories, happy or sad. I don't hear much about twins so I think its interesting when you hear happy endings.
And the twins that I posted about in the first post. They didn't know the mare had twins until 2 came out instead of one.

Hindsight is always 20-20.

[mskyar]

In the days pre-ultrasound, if a TB had twins, whether both survived or not, it was listed on the registration papers as a twin....

[SmartAlex]

While the pictures and stories about twin horses can be appealing-more often than not the result of giving-or trying to give-birth to twins is life threating to the mare and the foals.


Having experienced the "miracle" of twins, I would agree whole heartedly to this. Neither one of them was worth a darn even though they lived to be "healthy" horses. The 24 hour care was a doozey too. Our mare was a wonderful and experienced mother, but she couldn't count. She devoted herself to whichever foal was in her sight but forgot about the second one. My grandmother had to make sure both foals were fed every three hours around the clock. Then, there was the diarhea and constipation etc times two.

[lilmack]

Harley Rally"s sire was a twin. We bought the full brother to Harley and the stud
is in Greenback, TN. The stud, himself, is small and pretty homely but his off
spring are talented and pretty...genetics at work!

[Samigator]

When people have twins they are usually larger... Right? Or is that just a rumor?

Yes most humans are larger carrying twins than with a single gestation. They will often measure full term (40 wks) at 30 wks, so they are considerably bigger. And therefore, they usually don't make it to full term.

[Samigator]

I work at a veterinary hospital and we just had a mare in this last weekend that was pregnant with twins and one of the foals had ruptured the uterine horn he was in and ended up in the mares abdomen. Of course she was euthanized. I have no hard numbers but I would image a very small number of twins make it to term.

Julie

This happens in humans too, and uterine rupture is the reason that attempting a vaginal delivery is more risky after having had a prior C-section. I would imagine with twins the uterus is stretched more and has to work harder, so more stress on it, twins would probably increase the risk. Very sad.

Katie, I don't know why there would be a problem with registering (at least nowadays), as I believe registering 2 foals to one mare is done pretty routinely now with embryo tranfers (same mare may have two babies in one year, maybe to different sires, if another mare carries one of them for her, but they are both genetically hers- very interesting stuff!).

[katie]

Katie, I don't know why there would be a problem with registering (at least nowadays), as I believe registering 2 foals to one mare is done pretty routinely now with embryo tranfers (same mare may have two babies in one year, maybe to different sires, if another mare carries one of them for her, but they are both genetically hers- very interesting stuff!).

Because in Thoroughbreds, they do all live breeding. No AI, no ET. Silly TB people! :)

[katie]

In the days pre-ultrasound, if a TB had twins, whether both survived or not, it was listed on the registration papers as a twin....

Hmm. This was post-ultrasound, so maybe that's why?

I'll ask her, the next time I see her.

[smurphy0806]

Kinda OT... and not related to Saddlebreds... Sorry guys,

but...

Because in Thoroughbreds, they do all live breeding. No AI, no ET. Silly TB people! :)

WHY?

[Samigator]

yeah that is really strange that they don't even do AI in TB's. . . ??? seems like a lot of hassle not to mention risk to doing all live cover. That's like using the pony express instead of the telephone to relay a message. They need to get into the current century with their breeding practices I think maybe ;) I'm sure they have a good reason for it though. I'd be interested to hear it.

[SmartAlex]

From what I understand, it effectively restricts the number of mares a single stallion covers in one year thus maintaining the genetic diversity of the breed by preventing the ultrapopular stallions to breed virtually limitless numbers of offspring. Embryo transfer is also prohibited.

[Samigator]

interesting. It seems like they are trying to spread out the bloodlines while many other breeds such as ASB are trying to concentrate them.

[smurphy0806]

I saw something like that, but I also saw what they call "Dual Hemisphere" Stallions. When one stallion travels down south for 1 half of the year, (South as in not America) and covers Mares there. They do this because, well, you can't do AI. So you either have you breed what you can, or wait for him to come to you. Only a few stallions are able to do this, thus making the same genes in the gene pool.

I read that "good stallions" can still cover around 200 mares a year.

[SmartAlex]

200? Wow. I guess that would be possible for dual hemisphere because you would get two seasons. I think the standard is about 40 mares. But, a very fertile stallion who didn't have to cover a mare twice, and had two seasons to work with could do 200.

The ASB aren't trying to concentrate the genetics, but it's happening anyway much to our detriment.

[smurphy0806]

200? Wow. I guess that would be possible for dual hemisphere because you would get two seasons. I think the standard is about 40 mares. But, a very fertile stallion who didn't have to cover a mare twice, and had two seasons to work with could do 200.


I know, I couldn't believe it either!

I couldn't wait for an answer, so I googled it. I found this article.

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/aitb.htm

I wish I could find more, but that was the best one I could find.

[katie]

I asked a big TB breeder about the reasoning behind the no AI or ET thing and he simply replied with tradition. 'Ya can't argue with tradition' is actually what he said. ??

[katie]

From Wiki ...

One reason is that a greater possibility of error exists in assigning parentage with AI, and although DNA and blood testing eliminate many of those concerns, AI still requires more detailed record keeping.[78] The main reason, however, may be economic: a stallion has a limited number of mares who can be serviced by live cover. Thus, the practice prevents an oversupply of Thoroughbreds, though modern management still allows a stallion to live cover more mares in a season than once was thought possible. By allowing a stallion to cover only a couple hundred mares a year rather than the couple thousand possible with AI, it also preserves the high prices paid for horses of the finest or most popular lineages.[79]

[jslilley]

I've heard the "tradition" theory more often with the TBs, too. And yes, it does limit the book if you call limiting 200+ covers for some of the top sires (not necessarily dual hemisphere with that number either!).
As to the twin topic - I was reminded of a mare reading an earlier post that was prone to twins. The year I worked at that farm, she had to have a twin pinched and it was then I found out this was the 3rd or 4th year that had happened with this mare. Very interesting. I think she had produced twins once, but can't recall for certain. All in all, it is a good reminder of why we ultrasound and try to keep the mare safe and healthy.

[D_BaldStockings]

some useless trivia re: fertility

The Clydesdale sire Dunure Footprint b. 1908 stood in 1917 for $500 fee (a huge sum in those days), with 300 bookings for the spring /summer season.
It is reliably stated that he bred mares once per 2 hours round the clock for a week during one period, and that it took the milk of 2 cows to provide his daily protein supplement.

And another note: Federico Tesio felt that some 'spark' was transmitted through "the pleasurable spasm" that A.I. could not transmit. He was the most successful breeder in his day (bred Ribot).

Some people feel that a stallion that can't go through the natural behavior and cover a mare (psychologically or physically unfit) is not a good breeding candidate genetically.

[smurphy0806]

The Clydesdale sire Dunure Footprint b. 1908 stood in 1917 for $500 fee (a huge sum in those days), with 300 bookings for the spring /summer season.
It is reliably stated that he bred mares once per 2 hours round the clock for a week during one period, and that it took the milk of 2 cows to provide his daily protein supplement.


THATS A LOT OF MARES TO COVER!
Wow!