Help...He won't go

[Mistica]

I just started a 2yr old ASB under saddle and he has been so accepting of everything I've done with him, a little too accepting. I can't get him to want to move forward. I carry a whip with me and tap him on the shoulder and hip which has been the only thing that has worked but constantly doing it is tiring. He does not respond to legs but then again, I've ridden him a total of 5 times. He is just a big baby who just wants to put his head in your lap and have you pet him. What I'm wondering is if anyone could think of Anything I can do to get him excited about working. I should mention he is turned out on pasture all day with 5 other horses. He isn't mine and I am starting him for someone who has 4 girls who ride. Thanks.

Misti

[silvia]

First of all he is 2 years old, don't expect adult behaviour from a baby.

Secondly, it's normal for a green broken horse to be reluctant to move out. He isn't sure what's going on. Put away the whip and just persevere with him. Often turning will get their feet moving and doing a weavy, wobbly dance down the arena is usually how mine take their first steps under saddle.

Thirdly, as a 2 year old his body is undeveloped and probably quite weak structurally and muscularly. He is probably bracing himself to support your weight, and finding it difficult to do this and move forwards at the same time.

[Skyduck]

Has anyone taught him to work in long lines first so that he understands his bits first before trying to teach him from his back?

[DreamGirl]

Got to agree with don't expect him to be adult when he is not one. I just broke my mini to drive. First time I started from scratch. They have to learn it all. When to go forward, when to stop, when to walk... He's not being obstinant he does not know. I did a lot of ground work before I hitched her and went back to the lines when we hit a snag to reinforce what I wanted.

[Sit]

I agree with the others. Carrying weight is probably a little difficult or at least awkward for him. If he is accepting of things and a lover boy, and he is being prepared for kids, sounds like you have a bird nest on the ground.

I might even go so far as to speculate that he knows who will be riding him in the future and is saying we don't need to go on too much.

At any rate, at the proper time later, you'll always be able to animate him and have him step up. Right now, manners and bending and flexing and stoppng are the main things.

Sounds like you are doing just fine with him.

[3kidsandahorse]

We bought a big horse that wasn't broke to ride until past 3. He was the same way. He went forward but with no particular ambition. Yes, he's a kids' horse now, but he doesn't have to be. He will go forward without a whip or spur or anything.

Just be patient. You don't want to make him sour, and you don't want to hurt his body. You've got all winter. He sounds like a big love, and that's a plus.

[SmartAlex]

Long Lines!

By the time I get on a horse for the first time, it will already be broke to walk, trot, canter, whoa and steer from the ground. He will also know that clucking means "forward, NOW".

That makes the transition to saddle work very easy, because the only new aspect is having to carry weight and feel legs against the sides. I would stop now and go back to ground work before you desensitise him to your leg by constant urging.

[smurphy0806]

I agree with what everyone has said. Lining is the KEY.

I think that is VERY common in young horses. When I rode my 2 year old for the first time it was like he was trotting in place! The horse is very hot, but just wouldn't go forward.

So we put him in kegs, and for about 2 months all we did was line him. He started to LOVE to work. It's not that he didn't love to work before, he was just indifferent to working. He LOVED coming out of his stall and getting attention, but working was well... work!

When we started to line him, he LOVED it. It was kind of like a play time for him. We would bit him up so he would keep his head in the correct position, and then just let him do whatever gait at a decently fast speed (NOT running, just not slow) for a few weeks. He muscled up a lot! Then we asked him to do specific gaits at that faster speed. And slowly brought him back to structure. We never wanted to turn him out, although I'm sure he would have loved it if we could. What we did was train the horse to want to move forward.

Now its about 6 months later. We still long-line or drive him 3 times a week, and ride him 1 time every other week, and hand walk the rest. We don't want to push him too hard with "full" training, so we get him out of his stall every day, but not structured training. Afterall, he is still just a baby! Think of it like preschool. You still have afternoons off, and naptime. It prepares you for "real" school. This is his training. He still gets days off, we want him to LOVE to work. A horse that loves working is so much more fun.

He also has learned to LOVE to drive. He didn't like it when we first got him. Now its one of his favorites!

[Mistica]

I'm sorry. I left out that I have long lined him for about 3 months. He turn, stops, flexes and all that. I had the same problem on long lines. Infact it was worse, I had to be constantly be cracking the long lash (not touching him of course). I actually took up outside in the open today and he was a lot better. He even trotted up and down the fence line. I believe those of you were right when you say he'll get better with time. I won't push him too hard and just let it be enjoyable for him. He is such a people horse. He flexs and bends wonderful and backs when barely asks. I've been careful with his mouth. I guess I've never worked an ASB with such little spirit. I've been away from the horse business for awhile and a little rusty.

[lastchancefarm]

Put blinkers on him in lines so he cant see you. No caveson, line not doubled back so, he can go forward. Ask him to trot and cluck if he does not go, then bust his butt. Give one chance to go on then bust his butt again. Just remember when you bust his butt, let him go forward a lap or two before bringing him back down. whipping and holding teaches horses to quit or go up. Get him to respect your click then start riding him again, and do the same thing. I always break mine without blinkers but if they start wanting not to go forward I put blinkers and bust their butt and sent them down the hallway. Just remember to turn them loose when you whip.
So many people will choke up on the reins and whip a horse and not turn them loose. I only whip when i want them to go forward and they dont go. I teach them go before I teach collection.

julia

[rhettdgn]

I would rather get this youngster to enjoy his work and want to go forward rather being whacked and scared forward or forced forward. I think I'm interpreting your description regarding this colt as he's indifferent or reluctant/unsure about going forward.

Make it fun to work. Loose in a bitting rig that he's not cranked back, but has some indicator that this is work makes it fun. Use a positive attitude with high energy and he'll gain ambition and confidence. I like my guys to learn to go forward because they've developed a good work ethic instead of being scared shitless and run away. That should be used if your getting in trouble. Old addage going forward can't be trouble!! Your colt is only a 2 yr old. He's got his whole life ahead of him and he needs to learn to love getting out to work. If he needs a tap, then tap, but too harsh of treatment will get you going backwards big time.

There are certain horses that have undesirable behaviors and attitudes that the whack theory is necessary so the aggressive horse knows your in charge.

Also, if he's out all the time, he has already taken the edge off being out all day, maybe put him out 1/2 of the day on the days that you're planning to work him and he may have more go forward.

This doesn't sound like the sort of situation where you have to be the boss, just clear and definite with what your asking. It is tiresome to work a conservative colt, but stay positive and fun and he'll get it.

[Samigator]

How do you ask him to go forward in the lines? Is cracking the whip the only cue he knows? If so, you need to introduce him to some other cues to move forward- either tapping his back end with the lines or using your voice, or something so that you will have something tangeable to translate to saddle. You should be able to long line him without a whip and have him reliably going forward with your other aids before you expect him to move forward under saddle. I agree with the others about the importance of long lining for learning those cues under saddle!

I just started my 2 yr old ASB under saddle about 2 weeks ago and he was like that for the first ride or 2, but then he figured it out after he understood what I was asking him for. The first ride we basically just sat there and I would turn his head to get him off balance until he took a step or 2, then praise praise praise. Then stand a while, and try it again. By the end of the lesson he didn't really have it down, but he had moved a couple of times (in no particular direction or speed, just moved his feet). The 2nd ride I rode with a whip and when I asked him to move (with my legs, reins, and voice) and he didn't, he got a little tiny tap on the hindquarters (which he knew from lining) and then a praise praise praise when he did move, just do it a couple of times then quit. If I were you, I wouldn't use the whip on the shoulder at this point in time as it may not mean anything to him and might just aggravate him. My gelding was trained in long lines such that if you tapped his back end with the lines he would go forward- so the transition to using the whip under saddle was easy because he understood that getting a tap on his butt meant move. With a bunch more praise and doing that a couple more times he had it figured out and now he's going off of legs and seat even! It's all about repitition, and taking things literally one step at a time.

I don't think that your horse necessarily doesn't want to work, but probably that he's just not really sure what you're asking him to do. Also some horses are more lazy or laid back than others, so you can't reliably compare him to other horses. so, give him some confidence in doing the right thing and be patient until he figures out what that right thing is and I think he'll catch on. Just don't let yourself get frustrated and, as my horse's breeder says, don't take what a horse does personally- it is just a misunderstanding, a communication error, not that he doesn't like you or want to make you happy. :)

If he isn't getting it after a while, you could have a helper lead him from the ground while you are on him so that he learns the feeling of having a rider and then eventually can learn the cues.

-Leah

[Mistica]

Great to hear from you Julie. Thanks. I got blinkers on order for I realize their importance. No cowboy tack shops have blinkers out here on the great plains of Colorado. I think your theory would work but I have to be careful about this one because his purpose is to tote these girls around their ranch for fun. He probably won't be shown unless I take him to one or two out here. If I owned him I would be a lot more aggressive with his go button. My 6 yr old rode him today around the round pen after I was finished and he really is a baby sitter. Although he is beautiful, I'm afraid he is destined for a life of pleasure on the farm. He was given to these folks and is registered but have no idea what his real name was. Wonder if I post his previous owner (have her name due to brand inspection) is we could look up her horses and find his name. Is that legal?

[silvia]

No offence to you Mistica because I don't know you, but I would think twice about putting a 6 year old child on a barely broken 2 year old horse.

[katie]

Although he is beautiful, I'm afraid he is destined for a life of pleasure on the farm.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with that! :D

Wonder if I post his previous owner (have her name due to brand inspection) is we could look up her horses and find his name. Is that legal?

If he's registered to anyone, it's public knowledge. If you don't have an ASHA membership, I'm sure that one of the ultra-fabulous Trotters would help out! (I would, but alas, I never renewed.)

Time and patience is key, if you ask me. If you give him the time to mature in a positive work environment, he'll end up being a great pleasure horse for his family.

[wstrngrl]

I agree with Julia. FORWARD should be his first lesson.

A horse must learn that when his handler tells him to go forward, he must GO FORWARD. Period.

Remember to cluck, then if there isn't an *immediate* response, bust his butt IMMEDIATELY. You want to make sure he associates the cluck with "GO, NOW"

The next lesson is STOP, which I always teach using primarily a voice command.

GO and STOP are the two most important things a young horse needs to learn. Everything else will come in time.

Also, what bit are you using? I say the milder the better, particularly for a horse like him. Nothing twisted, or pointy, no single joints. At least two joints, or mullen, maybe rubber.... If the horse doesn't feel like he can go forward towards his bits, you'll never getting going forward reliably.

[Mistica]

(In response to Sylvia) I lead him around. I would never turn him loose. The first time I put a saddle on him he went to sleep. The first time I got on him, he hung his head and licked his lips and acted like nothing happened. I'm telling you that I've never even seen a horse this passive.

[Mistica]

Also, what bit are you using? I say the milder the better, particularly for a horse like him. Nothing twisted, or pointy, no single joints. At least two joints, or mullen, maybe rubber.... If the horse doesn't feel like he can go forward towards his bits, you'll never getting going forward reliably.[/QUOTE]

I am using a big rubber snaffle. I've almost just put a halter on him and got on but you are correct in that he has to learn go. He has stop down of course. I long line him a few days then ride him, so I will work more on cluck then get after him real good. Appreciate your post.

[Mistica]

I would rather get this youngster to enjoy his work and want to go forward rather being whacked and scared forward or forced forward. I think I'm interpreting your description regarding this colt as he's indifferent or reluctant/unsure about going forward.

Make it fun to work. Loose in a bitting rig that he's not cranked back, but has some indicator that this is work makes it fun. Use a positive attitude with high energy and he'll gain ambition and confidence. I like my guys to learn to go forward because they've developed a good work ethic instead of being scared shitless and run away. That should be used if your getting in trouble. Old addage going forward can't be trouble!! Your colt is only a 2 yr old. He's got his whole life ahead of him and he needs to learn to love getting out to work. If he needs a tap, then tap, but too harsh of treatment will get you going backwards big time.

There are certain horses that have undesirable behaviors and attitudes that the whack theory is necessary so the aggressive horse knows your in charge.

Also, if he's out all the time, he has already taken the edge off being out all day, maybe put him out 1/2 of the day on the days that you're planning to work him and he may have more go forward.

This doesn't sound like the sort of situation where you have to be the boss, just clear and definite with what your asking. It is tiresome to work a conservative colt, but stay positive and fun and he'll get it.

OK first thing you need to do is read back where I've said I've never touched him with the long lash and I tap him lightly with a crop in the shoulder or hip. I've never scared him whatsoever. I don't use a bitting rig because he is not being worked to be a show horse and I don't have the money to go out and buy everything I need to train professionally. I've got a good idea from everyone that he just needs time and it seems to be the case because he's gotten better each time I've ridden. I'd love to leave him in and he would actually like it too but the owners do not want any horse left in the barn unless it's hurt or extremely cold. Not my farm, not my horse, so I'm limited. I'm having fun just getting a chance to use my experience to help this colt get started (don't like the work broke).

[D_BaldStockings]

I really think your problem would clear up if you were reminded that your whip should be an extension of your arm:

First the horse is desensitized to being touched and rubbed with both until he is not fearful, then he learns that arm or whip movement are signals to go forward while leading. Very simply, if the horse doesn't step off when the voice is used on a mildly loose lead, the whip is lifted, then it is slightly wagged, then the horse is tapped, then if necessary given a single swat. And off we go.

He is always praised when he moves off. You should be able to lead at a trot whenever you wish.

From this it should be quite a simple transfer to longeing and longlining, and transferring to voice or cluck signals as you go along.

I think you need to stop thinking of the whip as an intrument of punishment and instead as a means of clarification and emphasis; your horse must go forward when asked.

Leading and untracking (turning from side to side to get the feet moving are often all you will accomplish on the first rides -it's all new to the horse! Alternating lining and riding may help.

One last thing, if his former owner whip-broke trained him to stop, turn and face the trainer (western style how to catch a horse), cracking a whip at him means something very different to him and you would have to restart him and replace that training.

[silvia]

(In response to Sylvia) I lead him around. I would never turn him loose. The first time I put a saddle on him he went to sleep. The first time I got on him, he hung his head and licked his lips and acted like nothing happened. I'm telling you that I've never even seen a horse this passive.

Every Saddlebred I have broken has responded like this, and each one has had the slow don't want to go wobbles. They all have learnt with training and miles under the belt to get going forwards and eat up the ground. It just takes time.

From personal experience I can tell you that leading a green horse that decides to start bucking doesn't help the rider in that situation. I'm not critisizing you just letting you know.

Good luck and don't give up on him, again remember he is only 2 years of age and perhaps he would be a different horse if you leave him to mature for another year or two.

[pbs]

Hes a 2 year old dont force the issue he will step out when he is ready. Steady patient work will help use keep useing your whip, but use to annoy him rather than busting him that way he will learn to move anyway without over reacting. A 2 year old has to learn what you want reward often for what you want and do short workouts until he is inshape. I would stay away from useing blinkers they will probaly make matters worse and really scare him.

[WTC101]

A 2 year old not going anywhere? Wow, I'm surprised!

He's a baby. He is not sure what he's doing. He will not act like a 4 year old horse. Put away the crop, the crop never really does any good. Try squeezing you legs to his body in out in out in out.....slowly....don't yank on him and kick hard because that will not get you anywhere. At last case scenerio try a english spur to give a little bit of a go. That will help.

Best of Luck!

[D_BaldStockings]

Perhaps we seem to be approaching this from the wrong direction and the riders-to-be need riding lesson, too? They need to know clear signals to give the horse to stop and go, even if they are pleasure riders.

I remember a trainer telling me that a good natured but uneducated colt has no innate knowledge of what our arbitrary signals mean, and if you get on and kick or tap, unschooled babies will
a. startle forward (and we think we are training!)
b. buck to dislodge the annoyance
c. back up in confusion
d. stand still and grunt when kicked.

So make sure the horse has a clearly understood signal to go forward both verbal and physical before you get on, then all becomes easy to get the right response. You don't need blinkers, especially on a trail horse prospect.

Best.

[AshleyLeigh]

Since you don't have a bitting rig, you may try completely tacking him up, putting the stirrups down, and putting the reins behind the saddle and under the leathers (so the reins don't flop down) and turning him loose in a round pen or small arena. He might feel then that he can go forward and do all the things he normally does .... just with tack on. Also, you could tie up the long lines and turn him loose in lieu of putting a bitting rig on.. make sure the lines are tied loose enough so that he can go forward, but not so loose as to give him too much room. Make sure you keep an eye on him, though so he doesn't try to roll or do anything else unwanted.

~Ashley

[Mistica]

OK. Can't say I appreciate some of the comments but if you would check and see that this thread has a little age on it, you should know the colt and I are doin' fine thanks. You all should know each and every person and horse has their own unique quirks and things they like and dislike and work or don't work. I'm not sure why I posted this thread in the first place. I got it all sorted out and so did he. We are riding around the ranch just fine. The few I have respect for gave good advice and I took it. You know, a lot of you have helpful advice but add the sly smartbut remarks that make a person forget the helpful things you say. Therefore in the future, I will restrain myself from asking.

[LLavery]

Misti,
You have no idea what a common behavioral issue this problem is. Your assessment of the problem was wonderful and as usual, the great people here at Trot, have given you fabulous suggestions. I am sending you a link to a recent question along the same lines. I always think it a good idea to have plenty of information when trying to change a behavior. Good Luck.
http://askthetraineronline.com/#nowhere
LF Lavery

[D_BaldStockings]

Mistica,
I'm glad to hear you are on to more advanced work and that your horse is turning out well.

I think many of us have seen horses 'sent down the road' to unfortunate ends when preventable accidents happen or horses learn slower than expected and trainers don't have enough tools in their toolkit to manage. Which is why we may comment on things in ways that can be taken as snarky, but weren't meant that way at all. People can only speak from their unique experience of the world.
Here on the internet we cannot see each other smile or the sincerity in their faces.

Good for you that you have forged on and sorted and taken the great information offerred.

Hope to hear updates on your journey!

[Mistica]

Thanks Mr. Lavery and DBaldStockockings. This colt will never be a show horse and I was just looking for general advice. This horse will never get sent down the road or anywhere else. He belongs to a family that has more money than they know what to do with and their horses are more for their viewing pleasure than anything else. Some of the people that respond here should remember there are a few of us who don't train horses for living and only faced with these situations on rare occasion, instead of acting like we are stupid and incompetent. I appreciate positive remarks. Thanks.

[silvia]

I am a little disturbed by the criticism you are dishing out in your last couple of posts, Mistica. I'm not sure if you realise what you are saying (or pehaps I am misunderstanding, I am getting old :001_cool: )

You posted a question and there have been quite a few people respond, honestly and to the best of their knowledge. Some of these people, I know, are trainers - giving you for FREE information and advice earned by themselves from hard earned experience.

I don't feel it is appropriate to take their advice and at the same time imply they are acting like you are stupid and incompetent.

I re-read through this entire thread and not once did I see those words appear. I did, however, see a lot of genuine interest and wishes to help you.

It does work both ways - critisize those who offer their help freely and you will get less help.

[sdlbredfan]

I am coming to this thread quite late, and strongly agree with Silvia's recent post reminding OP that she is getting a lot of free advice from some extremely, and in some cases more than just plain extremely, extreeeeeemely knowledgeable people! I also think Leah's comment "If he isn't getting it after a while, you could have a helper lead him from the ground while you are on him so that he learns the feeling of having a rider and then eventually can learn the cues." is excellent. When I helped get a horse under saddle for the first time, when I was a kid, that is the method used and I just assumed everyone did that because it works well, is stress-free for the horse and the horse 'gets it', the whole idea of going forward, very quickly. Voice cues are your friend also!

I am sure that 99% of this young horse's problem was confusion coupled with being too young/unbalanced for what he was being asked to do. I am glad that both he and OP have survived those early confusing times.

[walkinghorseowner]

We have always started riding our colts by "leading them off" the first few times.... they understand that just because something is differnt (the rider) they still must walk forward..... it minumizes the confusion... I believe it also instills confidence in the horse... it increases the success rate, instead of setting him up for failure....
we just walk along with him for a bit then just unsnap the lead and walk away, while the horse is moving....

[Tazsprout]

Just another opinion... bear in mind I've started more TBs than SBs, but still might be useful.

First, I would make sure he is mature enough to be ridden and not just so weak and immature that he can't tote you around yet..

Oddly enough horses off the track (if they don't just plain run off with you) also have trouble with "go forward at the trot (or even walk!!) and stay there until further notice." They (like young horses) are clueless about the leg or seat cues for "let's go." Oddly, some of them also don't really know what a tap with the whip means and merely react with surprise or resentment. (They DO know what it means to have the whip shaken along side their heads, so HOLD ON...).

Anyway, what has worked for me is the following...
I ride with a dressage whip or a thick piece of rope. Ride in a ring (or better) indoor.
Leg, cluck, smack my own thigh with my hand, wave whip around at shoulder, windmill whip around at shoulder, windmill whip around behind me (rarely gets that far). If the horse goes forward after any of these clues, stop and just let him go forward (no steering, or bit contact). Repeat. A lot.

I really admire those folks that can long line without getting all tangled up or dragged around the ring! I think I am just not good at it.. I've had too many horses swap ends, balk, etc.. but very successful for those that know how.

[midnight CappOcino]

sometmes training a colt is like raising a child. When you are working you are working respect. don't threaten, but them give them an oppportunity to try no always punishing them.

If you are lining. don't worry about setting his head excetera. Just teach him to respond to your go foward aids. let him gain independence and confidence. If you cluck it means go forward if not snap the whip if not tap, but if he bolts foward don't yank on his mouth to stop.. don't worry about going in your circle. there are so many times when I am starting my young ones my plan is lining and when we are teaching go forward I go back and forth sometimes from one end of my arena to another change directions etc.. I don't care at first cluck means go forward. I do my colts all myself and usually only one person me. So this works really well for me. they learn cluck you go. If not the whip but don't threaten and snap forever because its' like every other noise they learn to ingore it. cluck go, snap go, and then I tap and then i growl and chase them so they know i mean business.

that is my opinion, but I have done two dozen of my own babies and it works well once they learn that then the other comes more naturally but don't break their spirit. let them try but work is work.. No pocket ponies until they are in their stalls.

Good lcuk

[Greg Doggett]

Okay here it comes so everybody get ready to pile on. All horses are different and the same thing doesn't work for every horse every time. But I would say that the following steps have worked for me 90% of the time.

1. Give an audble cue

2. If no responce repeat the audble cue and spur him lightly.

3.If no responce repeat the audble cue and kick him Hard with the spur.

Now I know that sounds "cruel" to some people but it works and you don't have to kick him very much before he learns that the audible cue WILL be followed by something he doesn't like if he doesn't advance forward.

[silvia]

Okay here it comes so everybody get ready to pile on. All horses are different and the same thing doesn't work for every horse every time. But I would say that the following steps have worked for me 90% of the time.

1. Give an audble cue

2. If no responce repeat the audble cue and spur him lightly.

3.If no responce repeat the audble cue and kick him Hard with the spur.

Now I know that sounds "cruel" to some people but it works and you don't have to kick him very much before he learns that the audible cue WILL be followed by something he doesn't like if he doesn't advance forward.

I don't think it's cruel to teach a horse that it must respect an aid (once it knows what the aid is). It's kinder to have a few moments of discomfort to achieve a light touch, than a lifetime of jabbing and niggling.

However there's no hard and fast rule with young horses. They are still learning to balance and to respond to the aids, so it pays to give the aid and wait for them to work it out a little. Sometimes it can be unfair to discipline a young horse. I've found that if you are patient and logical, they do work it out, and off light aids most of the time.

[D_BaldStockings]

Greg,

Some horses will take the airborne alternative = really credible bucking show! with the hard spurring option; it just depends on the horse. Sometimes the startled reaction to 'bite' on the barrel is bucking instead of forward. If the rider falls off, some horses learn the rewards of bucking, if it works they will use it again.
But no, it isn't cruel to require the horse to do the job asked, nor is it cruel to use spurs as the means to demand.

I would add that 'leaving the door open' with a loosened rein and letting the horse continue forward at least halfway to one revolution of the work area with a bit of attaboy and no further interference gives that lightbulb in the horses brain a chance to come on. Once you correct the horse and he does as aked, a quick yes gives the horse incentive and direction that his chosen response is the right one.

Why learn slowly when you can learn quickly and develop a horse's willingness and desire to please as well? Add YES to your vocabulary.