View Full Version : Wilson's Allen
10-13-2008, 05:27 PM
Here's a link for you to learn everything you ever wanted to know about Wilson's Allen and why he's important.
In a nutshell, he was the sire of 5 WGCs Strolling Jim, Haynes' Peacock, Melody Maid, City Girl and most importantly Midnight Sun. There's probably not a handful of TWH alive today that do not have multiple crosses to Midnight Sun. M. Sun's most important offspring were, I think, Pride of Midnight and Sun's Delight. Granted, he also sired a lot of others who were successful in both the show ring and the breeding shed, but of the lot, I think these two are head and shoulders (bridles and saddles :) above the rest. Sun's Delight was a WGC himself and proved to be a good show horse sire and an incredible broodmare sire. Pride of Midnight was both a successful show horse, good broodmare producer and fantastic sire of sires. From Pride of Midnight comes the Generator, Beam, Jubilee Star, Royal Master and a host of other well known and successful sire lines. Hopes this answers your question.
10-13-2008, 07:05 PM
so basically, Wilson's Allen is a foundational sire for the TWH breed such a one like Anacochos Denmark or Genious Bourbon King for the ASB breed or Kingston in the Morgan breed. I went further to read about some the WGC 's of the past and present and looking at their bloodlines, pretty much they all lead back to Wilson's Allen. Puttin on the Ritz and Generators' Santana are amazing. It was interesting that the trainer, Bart Gilmer, of Cash for Keeps made a division change and showed that horse in the plantation lite shod division in 2006, when they won the WGC in 2000. That really does show the talent and versatility that the TWH offers.
10-13-2008, 07:28 PM
Yes, Cash for Keeps is a good example of the breed's versatility although personally, I thought he looked kinda funky as a plantation horse. Ray Gilmer, the horse's trainer and Bart's dad did a good job with the horse. However, the real credit for developing this horse MUST go to Sammy Day. Sammy started and showed him as a young horse. I saw him at the Woodbury Lions Club show as a four year old and man, it was a shut out, no competition even though he was in there with a ring full of nice horses. Keeps just put on an absolute clinic on how to do it right.
I never really cared much for Santana, he was okay, just not my favorite and kinda small.
Ritz was/is in a class of his own. The pictures you saw of him had Sammy Day aboard, but he doesn't get credit for this one. This is unquestionable the best horse the breed has produced possibly ever. He was developed and shown by Billy Grey. If you really want to see a horse doing it right, go to this website and watch his retirement video from 2006. Keep in mind that he is about 15 or so in this video and has been in the breeding shed for several years before being refitted for this retirement ceremony with Billy Grey aboard. It's amazing.
Let us know what you think
10-13-2008, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the link for Ritz- he's definitely an amazing horse. Okay since seeing the 2000 win and also the 2006 videos of the horse, do you know (I apologize if this is insulting) if the horse showed clean or was he showing sored? In the retirement video when they are stripping him they bend down to remove the chains and did you notice how many times the wiped off the back heels of Ritz's left front foot? Anyway, just wondering if the trainers practiced soring or not Billy Grey, Sammy Day, Gilmer, the Dunns. Those are the only players I can name as my knowledge is not only limited, but down right non-existent. The story behind Night Shade is really cool about him being orphaned and bottle raised. The photos of Santana are pretty cool. but I haven't seen a video of him working on the rail. RPM and Gens Armed and Dangerous look amazing also. Do you have any direct information as to the horses from the past that had the advantage because of the soring practice or not, just trying seperate the men from the boys thats all. I think it's a bold move to change the division of the Keeps horse, he looks awesome as a BL horse, but that is pretty versatile to change down to lite shod and win the world title.
10-13-2008, 10:52 PM
It can be a dangerous thing to mention names in the TWH world :), but to answer your question, it's public record that both Sammy Day and Billy Gray have served more than one federal suspension for violating the HPA over the years.
I don't think Gilmer has ever been suspended, but I'd need to check my records to be sure. I'm also not sure about Bud Dunn. Perhaps someone else could look it up...
After going to look this up, Bud Dunn HAS served a federal suspension; Gilmer has not. Just wanted to be accurate...
I've always been a big Keeps fan and really liked him as a lite-shod horse.
10-14-2008, 07:56 AM
I guess I've gotten off topic here. The original thread was about Wilson's Allen and bloodlines, foundation horses that have been major players in the "evolution" bringing us to todays TWH. The other interests can be continued in the other discussion re: soring and how to stop and enforce the practice.
10-14-2008, 08:55 AM
OK, I know semantics is boring, but I prefer the phrase 'breed building sires or dams' to 'Foundation animals'.
We really are talking over 100 years timeframe between the founding ancestry of both TWH and Saddlebred breeds, and sires like Wilson's Allen and A. Denmark or Genius Bourbon King. And the influence of Wilson's King would be more comparable to that of Bourbon King in the Saddlebred: THE dominant surviving sire line.
Early stock of the TWH and overlapping other registies -Standardbred, Morgan, Saddlebred, as well as families that were never actual breeds -may be found here.
Families that contributed to the TWH -this is what it is all about
Interesting to note that Wilson's King was an inbred animal; breeders of the time believed this was the way to set desirable traits and reinforce prepotence. There was some heated argument at the time as to whether you could breed a true runing walk into a line of horses or had to settle for breeding horses that might turn out pacey or racky and pick the best of the bunch.
These great breeders reached their goal and gave us the legacy of the TWH, one of the most uniquely American breeds.
10-14-2008, 09:27 AM
Wilson's Allen was not a foundation sire...all our foundation horses have F in front of their number...what Wilson's Allen did was to start a strong reproductive line, he himself was a product of close linebreeding of Allan F1 , his sire Roan Allen F38 was by Allan F1 and his dam was directly by Allan F1....Roan Allen's dam also traces back to the Denmark line of saddlebreds.....
and just a word of caution.... while Wilson's Allen actually did sire many of those horses, bloodtyping was not in effect back then.....
as far as Midnoght Sun..he was the male contributor, but much of his success was based on the crosses to the mares sired by Merry Go boy, whose dam was by the saddlebred Giovanni
10-14-2008, 06:49 PM
I did see that Wilson's Allen was linebred as well as crossbred. I didn't go back farther than Wilson's Allen as that was the starting point for the topic. I wasn't aware tat the foundation horses were identified that way. Thanks.
10-17-2008, 08:29 AM
a couple of good books to read are the Echo of Hoofbeats by Dr Bob Womack and The Biography of the Tennessee Walking Horse by Ben Green........Ben Green's book is very old and is copyrighted 1960....... Dr Womack is more recent with a second edition but nothing has been documented of the bloodlines of the last 20 years and the rising influence of both Pride of Midnight, The Pusher and their sons and grandsons.....
10-17-2008, 02:14 PM
I LOVE the Pusher line. I've had three come through my barn, and the horsey love of my life is a Pusher mare, with Society's Lee Allen as her sire. They are not for everyone, they tend to be ultra sensitive, but ... fantastic, beautiful, athletic, great work-ethic, smart, can't say enough good about them.
10-26-2008, 10:58 AM
Can any of TWH aficionados look up a pedigree for an old horse of mine? His name was Go Boy's Johnny Cash formerly Go boy's Black John. I believe sire was Merry Go Boy. 1968 or 1969 model.
10-28-2008, 05:23 AM
Sunridge, his registration # is 671315, that's all they give on basic IPEDS. To get his entire history a member would need the premium IPEDS package, which is an additional fee. With Go Boy in his name though, it would definitely seem that Merry Go Boy was a "close" relative. You certainly can't go wrong with that boy in your heritage.
10-28-2008, 11:33 AM
he was foaled 3/13/67, his sire was Go Boy's Jim Dandy by Merry Go Boy(Merry Boy x Wiser's Dimples) x Marigold Chance (Last Chance x Golden Glamour Girld (yellow)...his dam was Big Time Lady by Allen's Harvest Moon ( Last Chance x Nells) out of Patsy Giovanni Allen ( Giovanni (saddelbred) x Peggy Bonner) he produced one foal (1970)before being gelded.., that foal was never bred....
10-28-2008, 04:30 PM
Johnny had a baby!!! Wow, I never knew he was used to breed. He was just the coolest horse. Things are starting to make sense now. I remember fighting with my Dad about him because he was so snaky with the mares and his ASB stallion HATED him. My Dad wouldn't let me take him to show English Pleasure when he was taking the stallion because we had nothing but trouble.
But he was awesome for me as a 15 year girl. Thanks for looking him up.
10-29-2008, 10:35 AM
What a big beautiful boy Mary ... love that big solid WH look, looks like he could go all day and then some.
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