A Sore Subject

[longshanks]

I've been involved in the TWH industry since the mid-80's, and follow the soring debate with great interest. Most of the information about this heinous practice focuses on the wrongness and cruelty of soring but the history of the practice is largely ignored. I want to try and give some background on how and why this awful thing got started in the first place. Administrators, if this thread is in the wrong place, move it as you see fit.

Everyone agrees that the TWH started out as an all around pleasurable riding horse who could work all week and show on the weekend. The first (1939) WGC, Strolling Jim, pulled a plow both before and after his momentous win. Up until the mid to late 40's, the TWH was a fairly low action horse that was bred to cover ground smoothly by exhibiting a square, four beat walking gait from birth. During the late 1940's, a horse named Merry Go Boy came along. This horse was bred by noted horseman Winston Wiser and was out of a half Saddlebred mare named Wiser's Dimples. Wiser's Dimples was by an ASB named Giovanni who was by ASB Jim Dandy and he by ASB McDonald's Chief. The infusion of Saddlebred blood provided Merry Go Boy with enhanced motion and speed to the four beat head nodding gait, and Merry Go Boy was rewarded with back to back WGC awards (1947-48). At this point in time, spectators and breeders began to value speed and action over an honest four beat gait. The debacle known as soring loomed just over the horizon. In 1950, Hall of Fame trainer Steve Hill won the 3 year old gelding class with a tough, rank bay gelding named Talk of the Town. Because this horse was an all around lunatic who liked to run away leaping and pacing, Steve had attempted to slow the horse down with a very heavy shoe made from a wagon wheel. This shoe job worked and when he slowed down, he was doing the four beat footfall pattern and head nod of the traditional TWH, however, he was doing it with a sweeping, squatting step behind, great speed and greatly exaggerated motion. The crowds loved it and Talk of the Town became the only horse to be crowned World Grand Champion Tennessee Walking Horse three times (1951, 52, 53). Times had officially changed. Breeders recognized that by breeding a horse that could pace instead of walk, the horse was then able to carry more weight on his front feet without trotting and thus produce more action and command higher prices. Before long, there was simply not enough hoof to nail more weight onto, and action devices were introduced. Shortly thereafter, to enhance the effect of the action device and square up the pace, blistering the front ankles became common place. Thus the birth of soring.

I could go on through the history and will if anyone would like me to continue this thread, but for now my kids are up and hungry and my dogs want to go out.

[Mr. Midnight's Mom]

Thank you for that information - I had not been able to find just exactly how soring started. I knew that Merry Go Boy's naturally animated way of going prompted others to try to achieve it artificially, just not the particulars.

I belong to a fledgling equine rescue group. In addition to providing funds to assist in equine rescue (we do not take in rescues ourselves) we are an advocate for change in all issues regarding equines including racing reforms and soring. We currently have an on-line petition about soring that we hope will generate a large group of signatures. We have been active in a letter writing campaign as well (newspapers, congressional leaders, etc.)

our petition can be found at
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/533003783

please cross post if you can - soring has been illegal for almost 40 years, yet it still continues.

Again thank you for the information.

[Samigator]

great story longshanks- I'd love to hear more.

[catq]

me too please continue the history story of the TWH.

[Samigator]

yeah I don't think I would have ever made the connection that the soring and big motion walking horses evolved from trying to smooth out a pacey horse- very interesting. but it makes sense because our walker is on the pacey side and I often ride him with front chains to try to mix his gait a little. do tell more- that read like a fairy tale.

[longshanks]

Because there a few of you who are interested, I'll continue my monologue. Hopefull when its done, it will give everyone a better understanding of the forces that drive this dastardly practice and ultimately what will stop it. So, here it goes.

The 1954 WGC, White Star, was the last keg shod horse to win the title with Percy Moss in the irons. For the next two years, 1955-56, a horse named Go Boy's Shadow (a son of Merry Go Boy mentioned in the OP) was named the WGC with Winston Wiser aboard. Shadow wore a built up shoe made of leather pads and a pair of bell boot type action device. The lick was getting bigger year by year. Throughout the remainder of the fifties and on through the sixties, soring became mainstream in the performance horse divisions. At this point in time, there was absolutely no oversight and no incentive for trainers to take care of their horses' feet. However, a few people were beginning to notice that something was not right about this whole big lick thing and started to complain. Enter the government agencies.

The first incident of prosecuting a trainer and/or owner for soring their horse took place in Lynchburg, Virginia in May of 1960 A trainer named Wade Stepp showed a mare belonging to Mr. A.E. Hauser named Go Boy's Miss E. The mare won the Aged Mare class at the show and upon exiting the ring, both Mr. Stepp and Mr. Hauser were served summonses by lawyer John Zucker who represented the Humane Society of the United States. A vet from Mississippi named Dr. Clayton Stephens examined the mare and pronounced her sore. Stepp and Hauser were charged with cruelty to animals and a court date was set. What happened to Mr. Hauser is lost to history. Mr. Stepp failed to show up for his court day (he claimed he was sick with pneumonia). Mr. Step was ultimately found guilty of cruelty to animals and fined $25.

By the mid sixties, it is said that it would not be uncommon to see blood splatters on the rail at a TWH show. Along about '64 and '65, the public began to take notice of the horrible condition the show horses' feet were in and hell went to popping. In the fall of '67 or spring of '68, two ladies attended the Murray Farm Sale in Lewisburg TN. (I'm 99% sure of this, but it could have been Wiser Farms aka Americana). From this sale, they purchased the absolute worst footed, scarred, scabby ankeled horse they could find and then proceeded to haul that horse to Washington (Yes, D.C.) and unload it at the capital to show the need for Congress to pass legislation that would stop this awful practice and protect these horses. I can't for the life of me remember this horse's name, but the result of the his trip to Washington was known as the Tydings Bill. The Tydings Bill was eventually morphed into the law that is now known as the Horse Protection Act of 1970.

[Samigator]

very interesting. you should publish this.

[SmartAlex]

Two photos of Talk of the Town from the book Kentucky State Fair Horse Show Blue Ribbon Winners

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/smartalex_photos/talkofthetown.jpg

[SaddlebredMom]

longshanks -- Thank you for posting this. It is very interesting and very educational. :001_smile:

[vlayne]

Are those photos retouched? It doesn't look like he has a "wagon wheel" for a shoe, or even ANY shoe for that matter.

Any pics of the winners before him?

Amazing how quickly things changed!

[D_BaldStockings]

Winners pics

http://www.walkerswest.com/legends.htm

[SmartAlex]

Looks like things started to get out of hand after Talk of the Town.

Tif, I can't tell if those photos I posted are retouched or not. But, the walkers pictured prior to that were all headed down hill and lite shod. I like that old style quite well myself.

[vlayne]

Wow, look at those oldies and goodies! My how the breed has changed.

I feel the same way when I see photos of the old ASB legends. So much progress, both positive and negative, for both breeds.

[longshanks]

I'm glad you guys have seen the pics of the former WGCs. The WalkersWest site is incredible. By looking at the pictures and following the timeline, you can see where there have been major shifts in where the show horse faction of the breed placed its priorities.

To pick up where I left off, the HPA was enacted in 1970 due to a huge public outcry. In 1976, negotiations were made to allow the TWH industry to attempt self regulation. This marked the birth of the DQP (designated qualified person) program. This program was supposed to allow people within the industry to oversee and execute the pre and post show inspections. Has anyone ever heard of the fox guarding the hen house effectively? Since the HPA was passed, the TWH industry has became a case study of infighting, power grabbing, counterproductivity and finger pointing. I think there are currently 9 HIOs, TWHBEA, FOSH, PWHT, WHTA, Free the Breeders and god only knows how many other organizations fighting one another over policy and influence. Now, add to that the USDA, Humane Society, PETA and a few others and you begin to get some idea of the abomination this industry has become all for the sake of a blue ribbon that you can't eat, can't wear and can't pay a mortgage with.

For almost forty years it has been illegal to sore a horse. Unfortunately, instead of using the time to actually solve the problem, the show horse segment of the industry has developed into a cat and mouse game of us versus them. It is virtually impossible to have an intelligent conversation about the issue, which is what I am attempting to do here. Dare I continue?

[longshanks]

I also want to add that if anyone has a question, please ask and I will give you an open and honest answer based on 20 years of experience working in some of the best known barns in the TWH industry. I will not name names and I will not flame the fires, but I will tell the truth as I have experienced it.

[Samigator]

very interesting. I love that website too- what a great resource- awesome photos, etc.

[SteppinEasy]

Just curious who the two women were who took the horse to DC--owners, exhibitors, trainers? I wonder what kind of reprisals they faced from the industry...that must have taken a lot of courage! I'm also curious about what happened to the horse, if you know. Did he ever show again?

[walkinghorseowner]

Longshanks...20 years of experience is a baby in the industry.....that is only 1988...you got in after they took the 10oz chain away... you have no personal knowledge of much of this industry....and as you "delve" deeper into your story it is already showing a slanted leaning and is not all "factual"
while you tell a nice story, it is only your story......
BTW Talk of the Town did not wear a huge shoe..... Talk of the Town still did that gait when I saw him at the Celebration in his late 20's on exhibit.....
the saddlebred and TWH worked in the same action device at home and until the 1970's showed in the same type aciton devices ..boots.....
after the passage of the HPA and thru study it was found that the white leather boots had an adverse effect on the pasterns due to the way the twh moved... several other action devices were tried and approved, only to be changed...finally they(USDA ) agreed on up to a 10 oz chain, I believe this was 1974 or 1975...the 10 oz chain was the norm until 1988...when Judge Gaasch ruled out all action device and pads and limited the weight of all shoes to 16 oz........this removed everything from every breed......ther was quite an uproar..... the Auburn study was employed even though it was done in the late 70-82.... it was originally a thermographic study but they also looked at the action device...and suggested the 6 oz chain was the preferred..although there was another study that ok the 8 and 10......BTW the white leather boot is still legal...... it was after 88 that the formula was developed for shoeing....you can only add 1/2 the length of the natural toe (usually about 2 inches added since most natual feet on twh measure 4 inches) and the toe must measure one inch longer than the heel....... why do the shoes look so big...it is because of the support required becuase the horse reaches (our horse do not rock back and have very few tendon problems shod this way).....

BTW the two ladies were Vida Blue and I am not sure of the other one's name....they faced no reprisals...they were not "part" of the industry......

What is even more interesting is reading the congressional hearings after the HPA was passed, much of it praised the TWH, they even stated about how the scar rule was implemented and the scars were eliminated.....this was in the 70's......

There are lots of different "histories" to all history.... a wise person educates himself to the various "stories" compiles and verifies..... and forms his own opinion.....history contains solid facts for one part (dates, places) and the "stories that go with them...
ie the civil war...depending on what books you read you get a very different picture of that war....
and contrary to common belief the war was not one to free the slaves.......it was much more economic than humanitarian........

[walkinghorseowner]

Walkers West has a great collection of pix.....and yes most of them are retouched... natural aciton shots were not prevalent back in the 50-60-70....natural action shots are a more recent development... 1975 The Super stock... the last picture was unretouched..it was from I believe 74..
In 72 my horses wore a 16 oz leather boot, in 74 we had the 10 oz chain to show in..... that right there shows why you have more action.....

[attafox]

What year was it when the TWH and the AHSA (now USEF) split? Obviously, some state the AHSA gave the TWH the boot while others state that the TWH gave the AHSA the finger :euro: . I'm not looking for that - I'm looking for when the two went their separate ways and the TWH folks decided to run their own shows.

And, I always thought that it was because the boots hid the pasterns and anything that had been done to them (scootin' juice, tacks, etc.), not that it had an adverse reaction on the motion. Which study was that?

Here's a link to an interesting historical article from 1960:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134385/1/index.htm

and, interesting reader comments:
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134347/index.htm

[walkinghorseowner]

I believe it was 77 or 78 that the AHSA split.....the reason was the develpoment of the inspection program, and the criteria for inspection... in order to relieve the show managament from the legal responsibility of allowing a sore horse to show, inspectors were required to inspect in a certain manner (palpations, etc) and they had to check every twh..the DQP system was devloped within the TWH alosng with the USDA training and records had to be kept and avaialble for review, the AHSA would have had to have their stewards complete a program, or hire an additional dqp...the AHSA did not want to go thru that trouble, so the TWH was dropped...
also the intial shows that were attended by the USDA early on...they USDA people did not differentiate between the breeds, and attempted to enforce the dame rules....no double chains or stretchies, while working a horse......at that time the saddblebred trainers put up a protest and the split occuured.... it was not so much a kicking out, but an issue of not being able to work out th logistics...... personally I think it was to the detriment of both breeds.......

The saddlebred and TWH came from the same place....5 gaited wear hinged quarter boots (of various weights) and leather boots(so unless you are trying to hide something, the purpose was the same, action.... if it didn't affect the action there wouldn't be different weights )...so did the TWH...... what was found (since we admitted the boots were for action ) was that the 3 inch leather was too wide and would chafe...narrower boots were looked at and approved, dog collar and various things...but in negotiation between the governmnet and in training sessions and in testimony, the chain was found to do the least damage to the pastern and still be a very good action device....in fact better than a boot........I also belive the Auburn study addressed this later also....

[mlinky]

The saddlebred and TWH came from the same place....5 gaited wear hinged quarter boots (of various weights) and leather boots(so unless you are trying to hide something, the purpose was the same, action.

The boot for a 5 gaited horse is for protection. Although I have seen weighted boots in the WC catalogue, I've never seen one used on a 5-gaited saddlebred for showing.

[saddlebred26]

At the last barn I worked at, there was one pair of hinged quarter boots. They were packed away in the bottom of a trunk and, based on the shape they were in, had obviously not been used for a very long time. The leather was all dried out, and hadn't been cleaned. Not to mention that they didn't look like they'd been used much at all before being put away. They were never used the whole time I was there. All our gaited horses wore basic unweighted quarter boots. Many gaited horses I've known have even just worn scalping boots, which weigh virtually nothing and are made of rubber. The quarter boots and scalping boots are for protection. Also, only 5 gaited and fine harness horses are allowed to wear boots of any kind in the show ring.

[longshanks]

Wow, things have picked up somewhat since I left yesterday. Walkinghorseowner, thank you for complimenting my writing. It's a talent, what can I say :) Evidently you are quite a bit older than me and have an extensive knowledge of the breed and it's issues. Thank you for joining in this thread. That said, I took your remarks about my being a baby in the industry as quite belittling and feel that you are somehow trying to discredit my experiences because of my age. I have been through the inspection process a few thousand times and I think I have some credibility to speak to this issue. Also, I am unsure what you misinterpreted as a "slanted leaning". I love a big, sound, high stepping horse more than anyone, but surely we can agree that soring is a heinous, cruel and vile act, can we not? I was really and honestly trying to give some accurate background of the soring/scar rule issue. I may have been off a little with a detail here or there, but I think that overall I am pretty correct.
I also want to thank you for including the name of the ladies who took the horse to Washington. You saved me a lot of time. I know I have an article about it somewhere in the attic. It's probably in the bottom box of the fartherest stack.
Also, I have a question about the boots that were worn before the chains (since I am just a baby, you know). The trainer I worked for back in the mid 80's moved to a barn in Fayetteville, TN. Prior to our moving there, this barn was home to a well known TWH trainer who is now closely associated with FOSH and the National Association. When we cleaned out the loft of the barn, we found boxes and boxes of old boots. These boots did look like the hinged boots seen on some saddlebreds, however they are not the same. These were knocker boots and had large round lead balls sewn into the inside of the boot. There were also some smooth boots that weren't too heavy and some bracelett type action devices like the ones seen on Threat's Supreme and Mark of Carbon, but they were very heavy. I don't think a saddlebred would be allowed to show in them. Myself and another guy who worked there spent a few nights cutting the boots apart and sold the lead to Woody Woodruff (the breed's finest farrier). So, my question is this, is it really accurate to say that the action devices then are the same as those seen on a saddlebred? I don't think they're the same even though they look somewhat similiar.
But Walkinghorseowner, when it really gets down to it my bigger question to you is this. Is it not unfair to say that the inspection process is still a cat and mouse game? When a winning trainer like the one of the brothers from Georgia draws a ten year suspension (look it up if you want to know who it is, it's public record), does his time and starts back showing, what is there to assure the public and industry that his training practices have changed. Does getting through inspection really equate not sore? Can a leopard change his spots? What about the west Tennessee trainer who was suspended for a couple of years. However, while he was serving his suspension, the stable continued to operate under the name of his wife until she too drew some time. I'm not sure who is the "trainer" there now, but more importantly what assurances are there that they will change their techniques? How can people recognized by their peers as Trainer of the Year have a list of multiple violations and suspensions on their record? I don't want to come across as anti big lick, that is simply not the case. So what will it take to finally erase this stigma from a really fantastic breed? I have some thoughts on that but I'll let someone else go first and please, let's try to be constructive :)

[attafox]

Actually, walkinghorseowner, multiple members of the ASHA testified in front of the Senate regarding the practice of soring and how it related (or rather didn't relate) to the Saddlebred. Based on their testimony, the Saddlebred was excluded from the original HPA. The original HPA actually singled out only one breed, but the language has since then changed in order to encompass all breeds and multiple forms of cruelty.

I'll have to agree with the others regarding the usage of boots on ASBs - they are for protection and not action. The Saddlebreds don't show with action devices (per se - obviously, some shoe for greater action), unlike the Walkers who do show with chains that are admittedly action devices.

[vlayne]

In my experience boots do not add action to a Saddlebred's way of going. An ASB has a much different stride than a TWH - boots won't really influence it.

They might change the TIMING of the stride, but not the height of it.

[longshanks]

Well, I've been gone a few days and it seems as if walkinghorseowner has declined to divulge any of his/her knowledge to us, so I'll continue and hope she/he comes back. I told you all in an earlier post that I would tell the truth as I've experienced it, so here it is.

As an assistant trainer, I led thousands of horses through the inspection process and all but a few passed, but to a pastern, every one of them was sore. I don't think I've ever led a horse through the DQP station that was truely and honestly 100% sound. The inspection process is a cat and mouse game and most of the time the mouse wins. That's the reality of passing inspection. It is not effective. The whole program should be revamped from top to bottom. But, even this would stop soring. The end of soring must come from the judges, be embraced by the breeders and forced on the trainers. I have to go for now and I'm sure this will draw lots of responses, so I'll check back often and expand upon these ideas a little more.

[saddlebredcrazy!!]

me too please continue the history story of the TWH.

me too!!!!

[D_BaldStockings]

I would tell the truth as I've experienced it, so here it is.

As an assistant trainer, I led thousands of horses through the inspection process and all but a few passed, but to a pastern, every one of them was sore. I don't think I've ever led a horse through the DQP station that was truely and honestly 100% sound. The inspection process is a cat and mouse game and most of the time the mouse wins. That's the reality of passing inspection. It is not effective. The whole program should be revamped from top to bottom. But, even this would stop soring. The end of soring must come from the judges, be embraced by the breeders and forced on the trainers. I have to go for now and I'm sure this will draw lots of responses, so I'll check back often and expand upon these ideas a little more.

OK I have 2 questions: If there are 365 days in a year, how many years does it take to lead 1,000s of horses through inspections at shows, EVERY horse unsound...how old are you?

And 2nd...why would you KEEP WORKING as an assistant trainer when EVERY horse is unsound for this long time period in question? Surely there was a spot in the TWH market that didn't and doesn't involve abuse?

I don't doubt that you have seen soring, but exaggeration seems in evidence here? There appear to be those accepting your word as gospel who need a grain of salt to go with.

Please return to the verifiable history that we would like to learn about.

JMHO
Mary

[longshanks]

Thanks for your questions, Baldstockings. I spent twenty years in Middle Tennessee. I am forty. Because most TWH shows are structured differently from the ASB and the barns I worked at were quite big, it doesn't take that long for the number of horses shown to really add up. Normally shows begin in April (ish) and run through November(ish). Most of the shows are one nighters in which you show out of the trailer. It would not be unusual to show eight, ten or more horses in a night. In the heat of the show season there are often shows two and sometimes three times a week. That's easily twenty horses shown in a week. It's really not that uncommon. In one operation where I worked, we put well over 100 horses into the ring over the course of the Celebration. I think the number was somewhere around 120. So, I'm not trying to say that I've led exactly 3,678 horses to the DQP station. My point is that I've led a LOT of horses through. I've never came up with an exact number and couldn't if I tried, but I feel very confident to say that I have in fact led horses through the DQP station thousands of time; and yes, they were all sore. This brings me to your next question which is why did I stay? Answering this question is very difficult to put into words. At the time it really didn't seem like that big of a deal. It never really struck me as abuse. After all, the horses were fat, shiny and well cared for and we as grooms and trainers spent a lot of time seeing to the feet to keep the hair on (It's both art and science). Besides, we were winning a lot, and who doesn't like that? It's just how things are done. I had never known anything else and never questioned it. Also, I'm sure there were people who only show sound horses then and now. But, in reality, those people will find themselves largely unable to compete in the Middle Tennessee area, and that's no fun. That's reality. I've got to run because the kids have open house at school tonight, but I will try to get back on later and go a little further to give a better explanation of why I continued to work in those barns.
On a light note, I'm agnostic so it's not the gospel I'm speaking:)

[D_BaldStockings]

I don't feel you need to go more deeply into why you stayed, it rather seems a case of when in Rome...
Being both damn foolish and voted 'most likely to go broke for principles (or is it bullheadedness?)' myself, I don't think I could have made the same choice -not if the horses were symptomatic, anyway.

Please continue with the history lesson...your personal experience was in the later 80's onward?

And when you have time:
If DQP won't work per your post, what do you feel will?
Has any idea or program shown promise?

And can it be done within the currently desired show TWH ideal, or?

Oh, glad to hear you have a sense of humor, too. Bless you anyway, LOL!
Mary

[longshanks]

Mary, I'm glad you appreciated my feeble attempt at humor. I find myself very entertaining most of the time. I just don't know why other people don't .

I hope that by explaining the one night show schedule I was able to illustrate the validity of my claims to have been through the inspection so many times. You are very correct in that I was very much of the mindset of when in Rome, act like a Roman.

Yes, I started in the TWH industry full time in the mid 80's. I started riding Walking Horses as a child with an older gentleman who had a small barn located behind our subdivision. His horses were mostly pleasure and field trial types. They were nothing but sound. This old fellow took me to my first TWH show in Hattiesburg, Mississippi and that is where I saw my first big lick horse. I'll never forget him. His name was Sir Mack's Cool Dude. Dude was a big, barrel chested sorrel horse who could walk all over. I was immediately enthralled by the motion, rhythm and controlled power. He was trained by a black man from Baton Rouge named Roosevelt Williams. When I left Hattiesburg that night, I knew I wanted to be a big lick horse trainer. Up until I graduated highschool, the old man continued taking me to the shows with him and let me show some of his horses. I won my first blue ribbon in McComb, Mississippi on a pleasure horse named Rebecca's Ebony. After high school, I moved to Baton Rouge to attend LSU and you guessed it, I spend way more time hanging out at Roosevelt's barn than I did at class. So, 2 semesters into it, I dropped out of college and moved to Middle Tennessee. After all, if you're going to be a horse trainer, you may as well go where the best horses are, right? I got a job working for a large stables there as a groom. I stayed at that barn for 4 years. That's where I first came in contact with really big name horses and that's where I got my indoctrination into soring. I know you said there really was no need to go into this, but I think it's important and will help to clarify where I'm coming from, so thanks for bearing with me.

[SteppinEasy]

I don't feel you need to go more deeply into why you stayed, it rather seems a case of when in Rome...
Being both damn foolish and voted 'most likely to go broke for principles (or is it bullheadedness?)' myself, I don't think I could have made the same choice -not if the horses were symptomatic, anyway.
...
Mary

Mary, you and I have spoken about this before so you know where I stand on the whole soring problem :). I just want to point out that your comments above indicate something that I've tried to point out in previous conversations--you honestly don't understand the mindset of the TWH show industry. Putting chemicals on the horses' legs (or "feet" to use the more common industry term, lol) is never presented as something wrong or something to be hidden. It's out in the open and no one blinks an eye. While it obviously IS a matter of principle in reality, it simply is NOT perceived that way, even by many who would NEVER NEVER NEVER beat a horse, starve a horse or "abuse" a horse in any way other than this. A lot of people are soring not because they're weak, unprincipled, greedy or ribbon hungry, but simply because they don't see anything wrong with it. Everybody they know does it, their horses still go and are happy to be petted, and after all, they aren't THAT sore...

I'm sure you're shaking your head and saying "How on earth could that be true?" It's actually pretty simple. Many people have never been involved in other breeds; they literally assume that ALL horses of ALL breeds require *stuff* to be applied to their legs for some reason (haven't you ever wondered why posters often will argue to death that ASB are sored, too? They genuinely believe it.).

And by the way, "soring" is always something somebody else does. The thought process is like this: *We* may put some stuff on *our* horses' legs, but *we* don't sore. *We* only "fix." That's why the same people who serve suspensions for soring can say adamantly that they don't sore!

I know some people may find this to be splitting of hairs, but unless you can truly comprehend the way the industry mindset works, you can't understand how hundreds of people can be involved with no twinges of conscience.

When EVERY horse exhibits the same "symptoms," it's just the norm. The choice you speak of isn't an easy one to recognize, especially for people who don't know much about horses in general. I know for me, I just didn't know any better.

Then there's the confusion between the breeds about pads. While ASBs show with one pad, similar to the therapeutic pads foundered horses sometimes wear, TWHs wear stacks of them. I've encountered animosity here by suggested pads themselves are harmful to the horses--I'm talking stacks that actually chance the horse's center of balance, joint concussion and musculature; ASB people hear "make all horses keg shod." To be clear, I'm not anti-ASB pads (if TWHs would lower their pads to that level, that wouldn't bother me, either).

The conversations is fraught with intricacies...

[longshanks]

Thanks for joing in, Steppin Easy. I think we are both on the same page in understanding how soring is percieved in the industry. I see that many on here are wanting to continue the history of the breed, but I think that would be another thread (I would love to start one and probably will soon). Further, I don't think this is the thread to discuss the built up shoes. I think the moderators would view it as a different subject and move it to its own thread even though shoeing and blistering go hand in hand. So for now, let's stick to the topic of soring and tie everything together in the end. I think it'll make more sense that way.
The reason I started out with the history was to try and give some perspective on how this all got started. Now that a general overview of the origins of soring has been covered, I would like to talk a little about what purpose soring actually serves. I will eventually get around to how a horse is sored, how the feet are cared for to keep the hair on and how to get them through inspection. I think this will be a good segway into dealing with how to fix the issues. There's a method to my madness, just bear with me.
Soring, blistering or fixing serves several different purposes depending on where the horse is in its training and its natural way of going. For now, let's stick with an aged horse familiar with the showring. I'll cover young stock later. In an earlier post, I mentioned how the horses bred for the showring were bred to pace. Now, when our aged performance horse is working sound in a six ounce chain, he will do a four beat gait, but it's not the square 1-2-3-4 of walking on both ends. It is a much more lateral gait 1-2...3-4Not an outright pace, but not the square squat walking that'll get us in the ribbons. This horse still uses his legs okay, doesn't have as much shake, and isn't as elevated. He doesn't move in the bound squat you'll see on show day. Now, we have to show this horse in a few days, but we can't do it sound because he isn't square enough and isn't doing enough. So, in order to get him stepping higher, walking squarer (I think I just made up a new word) and elevated more in an action device of six ounces or less, we need to grab our jar of mix and make the horse a little more mindful of the chains.

I think I'll stop here for now, but the point I'm trying to make is that soring is used to accomplish multiple changes. It will alter the horse's motion, headshake, elevation and footfall pattern. Every horse responds a little differently to being blistered, depending on where it's put and the agent used. My job as a trainer is to know how much of what to use and where to put it to get the desired gait and still be able to get through inspection. As a trainer, I don't see what I'm about to do to this horse as abusive. I see my fixing this horse as just part of going to the show, no different from clipping, bathing or bracing. After all, I need this horse to do well and make a good show so he doesn't get moved to another barn, right? Diesel costs $4.00/gallon and I can't afford to lose any training horses.
If anything here doesn't make sense, please let me know and I will try to clarify. I don't want to lose anyone.

[Gus0429]

This is, without a doubt, one of the most fascinating threads I've read. I'm learning so much.

[D_BaldStockings]

There once was a mindset about human slavery in this country; also one about child labor that would horrify modern sensibilities. Then there is the modern day genocide and terrorist activity (Yeah, I'm being extreme here) that humans are quite capable of accepting if their peer group does the same: mob rule is truly one of the most dangerous tendencies humans acquiese to.

Understanding a mindset has developed within an industry doesn't erase the REASON it developed which is "winning is better than losing", coupled with "If I'm different, I won't win." Nor does it pass the guilt.

The only way is to change the way the participants see themselves, and that is a tough sell.

The temptation will always be there, any treatment must change the "We're all OK" mindset and sometimes that means a very painful wakeup.

Heaven knows in my over 50 years I haven't led a blameless life. I am SOOO grateful that my errors were found out and -very painfully- corrected; though I sure felt unfairly singled out at the time. Life is a learning process that never stops until the last breath.

So maybe I do understand somewhat, I just can't condone. There is a big RAT in rationalization, as philosophers say.

[longshanks]

Baldstockings, I'm glad you're here and it seems to me like you have hit upon some insight into why this practice continues. I absolutely loved your comment about the only way to change it is to change how the participants view themselves. Within that comment lies the key to ending this issue. Please bear in mind, I'm not trying to get anyone to condone blistering. I'm just trying to provide some explanation and clarity based on my experiences. Now that the mindset behind fixing seems to be explained to a reasonable degree, I think it's time to move on into trying to explain the methodology. Be back later.

[walkinghorseowner]

I wonder why you all seem so fascninated with the "history of soring"...would you be just as fascinated with the "history of using uppers on saddlebreds"and why drug testing became necessary.....or how about "how to use fireworks effectively"... you see that is the same thing.......
secondly I doubt very much if longshanks is what he says he is........oh sure he can paint a picture, but he is just a little too willing to tell a nice long history of how what when and why..... what is the purpose of this information...do you wish to learn to fix your saddlebreds....... instead of looking ahead and talking about the ways to train a horse the right way..he is going to rehash a bunch of crap... did some of that happen well of course, it is something the industry is trying to put into the past and move forward ...do you need to know all about it....well really not unless you plan to try it yourself.... he is a self admitted animal abuser and you want him to expound on it.... you are feeding a sick "ego".....

[SaddlebredMom]

walkinghorseowner -- The reason I am reading this thread is for education and understanding. It doesn't mean that I condone it or think it's a practice that shouldn't be stopped, but at this point, to those of us outside the TWH industry, "soring" is an enigma. You hear the word tossed about like a ping pong ball; I'd like to learn and understand the why's and wherefore's "straight from the horses mouth" and this discussion has provided that opportunity. And rest assured that while I am in no way a TWH "insider", I am confident that my own personal experiences will enable me to figure out what sounds plausible and what does not. I don't think any of us are that naive. ;)

As to whether or not I would read about what you proffer is the history of saddlebreds -- that is not necessary because I know all that already. ;)

As for your comments about the motivations to read this, I don't think I'll dignify them with a response. :glare:

[walkinghorseowner]

Since I do not know the history of the drug testing issues in the saddlebred....please enlighten me blow by blow...when were illegal substances first used..why were they used and what were they... please tell me how many cc of each substance you use...this is for my own personal education ...... please tell me how many saddlebred are tested each year and what the results are...and why you find it necessary to continue drug testing.......then lets move into the realm of the use of fireworks and fire extinguishers... which ones do you use ..is it sparklers or cherry bombs......

Sorry but the drug issue in the saddlebreds is about as necessary to my education , as the how to soring issue is to yours.........

How would saddlebred people feel if on every single site, people feel the necessity to discuss drugs, tongue tying, hyping up, dark stalls, crooked cut tails., and the insanity of saddlebreds..and every other issue anyone can find about saddlebreds instead of dicussing the positives.... and they discuss this, just for the general publics education.....
you are treating this walking horse topic exactly as you don't want the saddlebreds discussed on other sites......

here is a site that is being developed, read this for your answers as to solutions to the problems... http://www.walkinghorsefacts.com

[Samigator]

people "speculate" about saddlebreds and their "cruelties" all over the place. I used to think putting chains or stretchies on my horse's feet was mean until I understood the reasoning for it and the way they work and don't hurt a horse (well how do you really know if they don't hurt- I think putting chains around my bare ankles and running would really hurt- and I've got way more padding than a horse has!). If you would have asked me 10 years ago what I thought of a saddlebred shoed up with a pad and being worked in chains, blinders, tail brace, etc, I would have made a face and said- oh my gosh, that is terrible. But now I understand how these things work and why they are used, which is far simpler than soring is. It's not that I am planning on soring my walking horse, I would never do that, but it is interesting to know the why's and hear this all explained from somebody with personal experience. If you just trusted the rumors on the street you would have an opinion based not on understanding, but on what other people think. I like to understand things before I form my opinion. Now, you may say that I am forming my opinion based off of questionable facts by reading this site, but I have done a fair amount of research into this topic as well- I have a lengthy research paper that I have written about soring and I never knew any of the history behind it. If you look, the information on what substances and where, etc is out there, but I've not found a nice concise history of the practice and of the breed as I have here.

I don't think that longshanks is being cruel or bad by posting this information- and quite frankly I think he/she is an excellent writer and I love reading this "story." I think it is to our best interest to understand this information- not necessarily specifics like how much to apply of what, etc, but understand what happens so that we can be educated and aware of what soring really is and why it has come to be. walkinghorseowner- I wish you would add in more of your personal experience and tell the story from your perspective if you feel that it differs from this one. there is no point in keeping soring a secret- you want to talk about secret- I came into the saddlebred world only a few years ago and I know nothing about Wild Eyed and Wicked- now I'm not trying to start a topic about that now, but I know NOTHING about him- okay, he was a saddlebred show horse. . . ummm. . . the rest is instantly shut down and not discussed- how are people to prevent and recognize problems if they turn a blind eye toward what is happening- it is like the media coverage of the war in Iraq- who knows what's REALLY going on there. . . the only thing we will have to go on is the stories told by those whe were THERE. Therefore, I wish Longshanks to continue this story of his or her personal experience on this issue.

[D_BaldStockings]

Since I do not know the history of the drug testing issues in the saddlebred....please enlighten me blow by blow...when were illegal substances first used..why were they used and what were they... please tell me how many cc of each substance you use...this is for my own personal education ......

illegal substances were first used when they became illegal; before that they weren't illegal. (This is similar to racehorse doping) They were used TO WIN. What were they? I'm not sure, but the usual performance pharmacopia in horses would be pain relievers, stimulants and depressants readily available to humans...opiates, tobacco, nicotine, alochol, caffeine, herbals, etc. How many do I use? On a sick horse, whatever the vet prescribes, otherwise none. That is a pretty boring education, but you asked?

please tell me how many saddlebred are tested each year and what the results are...and why you find it necessary to continue drug testing.......then lets move into the realm of the use of fireworks and fire extinguishers... which ones do you use ..is it sparklers or cherry bombs.......

I have no idea how many are tested, the word random is used, so I assume the practice is not widespread.

Sorry but the drug issue in the saddlebreds is about as necessary to my education , as the how to soring issue is to yours.......

How would saddlebred people feel if on every single site, people feel the necessity to discuss drugs, tongue tying, hyping up, dark stalls, crooked cut tails., and the insanity of saddlebreds..and every other issue anyone can find about saddlebreds instead of dicussing the positives.... and they discuss this, just for the general publics education.....
you are treating this walking horse topic exactly as you don't want the saddlebreds discussed on other sites......

I hope that if they do discuss these issues, they will also come to this forum; it will help up see how others perceive our breed and allow us to see them with fresh eyes. Valid practices that are beneficial but misunderstood need education. Others need discussion, reworking, and discarding if they are poor practice. Working in a vacuum leads to a very skewed perception of reality.

[SteppinEasy]

There once was a mindset about human slavery in this country; also one about child labor that would horrify modern sensibilities. Then there is the modern day genocide and terrorist activity (Yeah, I'm being extreme here) that humans are quite capable of accepting if their peer group does the same: mob rule is truly one of the most dangerous tendencies humans acquiese to.

Understanding a mindset has developed within an industry doesn't erase the REASON it developed which is "winning is better than losing", coupled with "If I'm different, I won't win." Nor does it pass the guilt.

The only way is to change the way the participants see themselves, and that is a tough sell.
The temptation will always be there, any treatment must change the "We're all OK" mindset and sometimes that means a very painful wakeup.

Heaven knows in my over 50 years I haven't led a blameless life. I am SOOO grateful that my errors were found out and -very painfully- corrected; though I sure felt unfairly singled out at the time. Life is a learning process that never stops until the last breath.

So maybe I do understand somewhat, I just can't condone. There is a big RAT in rationalization, as philosophers say.


Just to be absolutely clear, I'm about as far from a soring or BL TWH apologist as it gets, so I'm in no way trying to condone anything. But unless people outside the industry begin to understand how people within the industry think, they won't have any effective means of ending the practice. And like slavery (which is actually a pretty good analogy), the elimination of soring will have to be forced on the industry from the outside, aided by information from sympathetic individuals who have been inside.

The part I've highlighted in red? You're 100% right. I just tried to explain WHY it will be such a tough sell, that's all.

[longshanks]

Please, everyone. Do not let personal feelings and emotions drag our thus far constructive thread into the abyss. Let's stay on topic, put emotions aside and remain true to the original intent of the thread, information. If anyone feels my information is incorrect, they are certainly welcome to voice their opinion. After all, beyond the historical and easily verifiable information in the beginning, I am writing based on my experiences. One last thing, every breed and discipline has it negative elements. I really don't think anything will be gained by engaging the old if you think what we're doing is bad, what they're doing is worse comparisons. So, just to reiterate, let's stick to the subject. Hear me out and decide for yourself. Disagree if you'd like. Question what you don't understand and let's try to be positive and constructive.

[vlayne]

Since I do not know the history of the drug testing issues in the saddlebred....please enlighten me blow by blow...when were illegal substances first used..why were they used and what were they... please tell me how many cc of each substance you use...this is for my own personal education ...... please tell me how many saddlebred are tested each year and what the results are...and why you find it necessary to continue drug testing.......then lets move into the realm of the use of fireworks and fire extinguishers... which ones do you use ..is it sparklers or cherry bombs......

Sorry but the drug issue in the saddlebreds is about as necessary to my education , as the how to soring issue is to yours.........[/url]

Do you know something we don't about Saddlebreds being the only breed that is subject to USEF-supervised drug testing? Or the only breed that has ever used drugs to enhance performance, or calm a horse? Or that drug use is prevalent in the ASB show ring today?

I get the USEF magazine, and I read the drug violations. Very FEW are ASB trainers and horses, BTW... Since TWHs aren't part of USEF I'm guessing you don't get the publication?

[longshanks]

Moving on. As I said earlier, now that the mindset behind fixing seems to have been addressed, it's time to move on to methodology.
The methods involved in soring a horse for the aforementioned purposes of gait, elevation, headshake and squaring are nothing like what is commonly portrayed. In many other forums and sound horse promoting sites fixing is portrayed as a poor horse, blistered to the hilt (industry term is deep), wrapped in plastic wrap and so sore that they are unable to stand. Many of these threads and sites would have you believe that the horse is beaten to get it up and out of the stall each day. I have to say this is, in my experience, untrue.
A TWH colt with a future as a show horse is generally started under saddle about 20 months of age. The TWH is, on the whole, much quieter than an ASB. Because of this, work under saddle starts almost immediately with little to no attention paid to the ground work and longlines that most of you are probably familiar with. Stop, go, left and right are mostly taught from the saddle rather than the ground. As soon as the basics are established and the colt shows it can pace, it gets it first blistering. This is usually done with either straight reducine or reducine mixed with a little mustard oil applied for three or four days in a row all the way around from the bottom of the fetlock joint to the hoof/coronary band. After a few days of reducine blistering (no wraps yet) a heavy scurf will develop and peel. As the scurf begins to peel, the feet are greased to help it soften and slough off. Once it's gone, repeat the application. This process toughens the skin of the feet so that all of the hair won't fall off as easily when the horse starts to carry a lot of chain and learn how to be a show horse. As the colt gets more broke, he is asked to carry some chain along with the blister but still pace. Once the colt can carry a few pairs of chain and a little blister, he gets his first foot, usually a pad and wedge on a keg shoe nailed straight to the hoof (no double nail pad). He carries this little foot and follows the same program, but now he's got a little more motion. Just as before, the colt is asked to pace and carry chain, usually a couple of pairs. Once he can do this, it's time to add more foot and so on until the horse starts to show signs of wanting to "hit" a little bit. It's the first true indication that the horse is going to make a show horse. Normally, the horse is now carrying enough foot to have a band and double nail pad. About this time is when he gets his tail cut and learns how to wear leg wraps. He's shown some talent, he seems to have the motor and go forward, his feet are toughened from repeated applications of reducine, so now it's time to learn how to be a show horse.

[walkinghorseowner]

What this "gentleman" is going to "explain" to you is basicly how he sored horses, what he did, blow by blow ...he already gave you all the basic information as to why.....
he is not going to give you any constuctive information..... the constructive part is what has been and is continuing to be done to eliminate the practice...
there is no deep seated "theory" as to why it is done... people cheat because it is a fallability of human nature.... how many people do you know who do something illegal,(even as inocuous as driving over the speed limit by a couple miles an hour) or just questionable every day. People break the rules in the TWH industry for the exact same reason they do in the saddlebred industry..... they do it to win....
It would serve the TWH better and yourselves, to learn the proper way that the walking horse is worked, the proper way it is shod and the correct way it is to be shown. You can learn all about how to sore one and you will never learn what is the correct way to work a horse. A good education on the breeding and the abilities that are bred for in our show horse, would serve you well. But instead what this "gentleman" is offering and what you are asking for is a primped up trashing of my breed under the guise of education..... it is akin to going to a strip joint to learn anatomy, or watching a porn movie to learn about love making........
What a noble "genetleman" he is ..he is going to give you an expose' of the TWH.....

[SaddlebredMom]

It would serve the TWH better and yourselves, to learn the proper way that the walking horse is worked, the proper way it is shod and the correct way it is to be shown. You can learn all about how to sore one and you will never learn what is the correct way to work a horse. A good education on the breeding and the abilities that are bred for in our show horse, would serve you well.

That is an excellent suggestion! :thumbup1: Please start a thread about that and I'll be there in a flash!

[attafox]

walkinghorseowner -

This is not a Walking Horse board. On many WH boards, it is customary to attack people. That's not what we do here. We attempt to discuss ideas without flames. Your posts are getting increasingly hot and need to cool down.

In response to your questions -

Saddlebreds are not the only breed tested for drugs - that is for all of the USEF governed breeds. Don't attempt to single out one breed for what is done across all of the USEF governed breeds; the argument doesn't fly. As to personal experience? In 20 years of showing, my own horses have been tested 5 times (that's pretty random). Never failed. When reading the USEF publications (where they are always published), the World Championship horse show has horses tested every year and there are less than a handful (maybe 1-2 horses) that end up with a drug penalty - most are for bute. You don't see Saddlebred trainers leaving the showgrounds when the USEF drug testers show up.

Samigator - you have a PM.

[longshanks]

Once the colt's feet are tough, the blister becomes much more specific and where it is applied and in what amounts depends on how the horse travels(where it's put) and stewards(how much can you put and still get in). Each horse will respond differently and each horse has its limit beyond which, they become much more difficult to get through inspection and may have adverse effects on the gaits. This is really important to understand because sorer does not equal better. Remember, our horse must lead freely around the cones and not flinch during the manual palpation. Now, because the inspectors are free to patrol the showgrounds, horses must not be wrapped in plastic and must present a good image all the time. To best illustrate this, just this year, less than two months ago, a very large and successful trainer from California had some of his horses pulled from their stalls on the Celebration grounds and inspected. The trainer recieved multiple violations and then left the show. This is public record, if you're interested, look it up. It's not that hard to find.
The blistering agents have not changed that much. Mustard oil, croton oil, diesel, kerosene and GoJo (non-pumice only) are still the norm. I would have to say that a mustard oil/kerosene mix is the most common. Drops of straight mustard oil are hardly ever used anymore. Straight croton oil will ruin the horse and is never used except in a mixture with kerosene or by mixing it into melted work grease known as hot butter (the grease is usually Seneca and it's butter yellow). Each trainer has his own recipe for mixes and usually has several of varying strength.
Plastic wrap is another misunderstood item. Plastic wrap is used to sweat the blister into the skin by opening the pores, but it is also used to sweat grease into the feet to soften the post blister scurf and encourage it to peel away cleanly. About the third day after the blister is applied, the outer layers of skin begin to peel away much like a sunburn peel. This scurf must be cleared away before the cycle can begin again.

I think this is a pretty good look at the methodology of fixing. I did not address using salicylic acid for callous reduction, as I think I should add that later, during out post-show foot clean up and hair growing phase. The parts that are really important here are to recognize that fixing is not a more is better deal. You can definitely over do it regarding both passing inspection and gait execution. I think my next post should explain getting the feet and horse ready to pass inspection.

As I've noted all along, this is all based on my experiences but if there is something that doesn't make sense, feel free to ask and I will try to give you a better explanation. Please note that before this thread is over, I will have acknowledged the incredible progress made in the breed and the efforts being made to further that progress. The reason I am posting this information here is that in order for a puzzle to be put together, you must have all of the pieces.

[vlayne]

And what about the rumors I've heard about putting golf balls under the pads? Or hot nailing shoes? Mechanical fixing instead of chemical...

[longshanks]

Good morning, vlayne. Let's have another sip of coffee before we get started.

I can't say that mechanical soring doesn't occur sometimes however, it's not like what most are led to believe. In my experience, the accusations of pressure shoeing with golf balls, nails and what not are misleading, over dramatized attacks conducted by anti big lick interests. Putting golf balls under a horses feet is a sure way to ruin that horse. I've never seen it done and would really have to question the credibility of anyone who claims to have seen it. Remember, the horse must be able to lead freely to pass inspection. The aftermath of this type of pressure shoeing would be the same as if it were done to any other breed of horse, namely a bad image horse standing with his back feet past his front, followed by founder, abcesses and most likely a career ending if not deadly injury.

Very infrequently, there are valid cases of pressure shoeing that come up. The penalties on the parties involved are extremely severe. I think pressure shoeing is currently as close to being a non-issue as it will ever be.

[decrosby]

Where does Wilson Allen fit into the history?

[SaddlebredMom]

longshanks -- So let me see if I've got this so far: blistering causes the scurf which then schluffs off, leaving behind scar tissue? What's the purpose of the scar tissue; why do you want/need that? Is it because of the use of the action chains, which are permissible?? :confused1:

[walkinghorseowner]

You do not want scar tissue.......
Colts are started at about 16 - 18 months... about 50% are started driving first, the rest are green broke to ride first and then driven...driving develops the backend musculatur .....
the first shoe usually consists of a footpad, and a pad and wedge and rubber bottom, or lightweight shoe..the footpad is just that it is nailed to the foot...the rest of the shoe is nailed to the footpad...this is done because the bottom package is changed frequently to adapt to the progress the colt is making, and you don't want to keep driving nails into the hoof.......
First note....... in order to be a show horse the colt must be made correctly, possess natural talent and the proper temperament...... this talent and ability is never found "in a bottle"..... I have raised a 2x WGC, 4 xWC, a WG and 2 x WC and another 2x WC.......I can walk out in a field of foals I raised an tell you exactly which ones will be show horses and which ones won't...... every mare I have in my herd was started to check ability, in addition to genetics.....
most colts will walk, pace and trot at times out in the field...you watch for the ones who have the natural tendency to shift the weight to the rear and mount up in front when moving free.... you do not necessarily want a cold that flat out paces..there are paces and paces...you want swing,and you want a colt that possesses rhythm
Fact... TWH naturally shift their weight to their hindquarters, when doing the walk/running walk their front legs DO NOT propel the horse forward...they basicly are free moving ..which allows for the extreme action....reference Paul Roberson UT study on the locomotion of the TWH gait...
by adding weight (and determining the proper angulation for the shoeing package with in the parameters of the rules, the front action is developed.(you want and arching reach, not up and down)..at the same time the horse is mouthed to be responsive and to aid in balance.... the concept is drive forward hold back...horse get's "bigger".. stride increases.....

[longshanks]

The scar tissue you hear about isn't like scar tissue on a human. When you hear about a TWH turned down because of a scar rule violation, the scars they are referring to are not like the one I carry from an appendectomy. It's much more like the thick, horny callous inside the palm of my hand. The callouses are caused by the friction of the chains in conjunction with skin that is sensitive from blistering. Like I said earlier this morning, I'll explain salicylic acid and callous reduction more a little later. So far we've covered history, mindset, methodology Now we have to get through inspection.

[SaddlebredMom]

The callouses are caused by the friction of the chains in conjunction with skin that is sensitive from blistering.

OK -- So the purpose of the blistering is to make the skin sensitive? Why? So they raise their front legs higher when the action chains are used? What about internal blistering?

[longshanks]

You're exactly right, Saddlebred mom. Sensitive skin results in increased response to the action device.
I'm not sure what you mean by internal blister. The only internal blister I've had any experience with is a theraputic treatment for muscle soreness and some stifle issues. This is an approved and not uncommon procedure used by most equine veterinarians, and is a different beast from what we're talking about in this thread even though the names make them sound somewhat alike.

[longshanks]

Okay, we've gone through the history, mindset and methodology. Imagine that our horse is working well and we're at the show. With a little luck, we might get a good ribbon. A good ribbon here sure would help in marketing this horse to sell and maybe his little brotherthat's still out in the field too. Now, he's a little ouchy about his feet. He's standing kinda drawn up. His front feet are just a little farther back than they should be and his back feet are just a little farther forward than they should be. He's standing kinda crampy with more weight on the back feet than normal. How am I going to get the horse to lead freely around a set of traffic cones on a loose rein, and then how am I going to get him to not flich and pull his feet away when the DQP does the manual palpation?
If you've done your work correctly thus far, there shouldn't be any big surprises on how the horse responds to having his feet palpated. Pull the wraps off and towel the feet thoroughly. Make sure there's no scurf hanging on. Next cover any hairless areas with color appropriate chalk or graphite. We want to minimize the chances of a scar rule violation. Towel off any excess, we don't want to get a foreign substance violation. Palpate the horse and see how he responds. Mount up and ride him a little to loosen him up so he leads freely. Make a pass or two in a pair of light chains or wooden rollers to take away a little of the cramp and ouch. Palpate him again to see if he flinches. Chances are you can go. This is just a general overview, and there are lots of tricks of the trade to use if the horse doesn't stop flinching during palpation. Some like EPF5, lidocaine and benzocaine spray are alcohol based numbing agents. Others like a zip tie around the gums or kick to the gut are more basic and direct. It really doesn't matter what you do, what matters is that you get through inspection and become one of the 97% deemed in compliance and able to show. If the horse is iffy in spite of my best efforts and I know the DQP personally, I might be feeling lucky and take him up anyway. If the horse is iffy and the USDA is there, I'll probably put him back on the truck and try again another night.

[walkinghorseowner]

Longshanks is so far behind....you had better not have a horse a little "ouchy" or standing a "little crampy"..... that sucker better be able to get off that trailer leading free..... he'd better be bright eyed and bushy tailed... or your gonna be on a 9 month vacation at least.... the horse has to have a loose caveson, no curb chain (a zip tie in the mouth would make him fussy anybody could see that.....).... if Longshanks has been breaking the law he should go away on a long vacation, not looked at as an "expert" to enlighten the saddlebred world.... but then again I doubt very much if he is really involved in the TWH industry.... he is being just so "helpful"....... and his little stories just don't jive.... BTW HSUS is offering a $10,000 reward for people just like Mr Longshanks.... so here you all sit waiting for the next "chapter" in his soliliquy... personally I'd like his real name so I could turn him in....

[Silly Filly]

walkinghorseowner, I agree with you 100%, this has smelled like fish from the beginning.:glare:

[D_BaldStockings]

There is such a thing as too much science and not enough soul. A history of the mindset shift was somehat interesting. Human nature fails appallingly often.

The how-to-sore bit is frankly not something I need to hear; any more than I need to hear a blow-by-blow of how-zyclonB-works-efficiently-to-kill as practiced in the WWII concentration camps.

A history of how something comes about as a springboard to effect needed change is a valid discussion; the rest feeds the fascination with deviance which is unhealthy.
No.

[rhettdgn]

I am new to this forum and although I could probably write a book about the Morgan industry or Saddlebred industry, the TWH industry is a total mystery. I would hope that Walkinghorseowner would discuss her knowledge and experiences with the horses, trainers and practices that have been changing or not. Tell us about longstanding practices and traditions he/she knows about. Longshanks does have a way with words and although we that have been in the "horse world" and have had to learn (sometimes the hard way) that you/we have to come to our own conclusions whether something is truth, exaggeration or entirely fiction I am fascinated with the story, the history lesson was the way you captured our attention. I would hope you to go on. I have faced many a hunt rider at a local show attack me for trotting by with stretchers on my students equitation horse or 3-G horse, they don't get it. Longshanks- please continue, I'll hold my opinions until you are finished.

[walkinghorseowner]

In order to address the development of the show horse (in any breed, and with focus on the TWH)...you must consider the socio-economic changes that took place in this country..... you must look at the devlopment of the south both pre and post civil war, the entire country both pre and post depression and the changing social more' of this country with regard to animals in general and the horse in particular. Then you must factor in the animal rights movement, which has been growing in the last 15 years and their impact on the government thru their contribututions to the political campaigns.... Then you must look a the government role in private industry and private lives and study this progression post depression... you must also study the many programs of the government and ascertain the effectivity of the government (you get a sampling of this in the current financial crisis)..... then you may a get true picture of the entire equine industry, the TWH as part of it.....
A "history" lesson such as the one longshanks is giving tells you squat...except of course that he knows how to sore a horse and has broken the law numerous times, to his own admission..... dbaldstocking is correct in her assertainment of what should be discussed and what is beneficial.... and the joint history of the TWH and the saddlebred would need to be addresssed since they both sprung from the same situations and beginnings and until the late 70's were trained by many of the same people (many trainers worked both, especially up north, )... many do not realize how tied together these two breeds were...

[rhettdgn]

Thank you Walkinghorseowner for continuing the dialogue. IMO, I agree with you that TWH and ASB have travelled parallel paths pre and post civil war and as the years passed they have been intertwined and connected. You know, it makes me crazy how so many will take such "shortcuts". There is a line that must be drawn between enough and too extreme. I have just finished watching a 2 yr. old mares class, 3 yr. old class and of course the BL wc class. I held my breath when they cantered. OMG. These horses work so damn hard!!! Absolutely amazing. I agree that a lesson on how to sore a horse is not necessary. I have been reading alot of articles about soring and they are saying it's part of the process to get maximum results. I hope that through discussions and also enforcement that the trainers that do this would be heavily penalized. Why would horseowners keep their show horses with the slimey ones that do this, wouldn't you change your trainer if you saw these practices at the barn you keep your horses at? Just as a note: people starve and neglect horses, are turned in and "the book" isn't thrown at them. They get off scott free really, so reflecting on that scenario, why would the courts really go for justice re: this issue. It should happen for both, but it most probably won't. As the animal rights guys go- please- extremism to the max, they can be so ridiculous. How can they form an opinion about what the gaited breeds do when they don't even take the time to learn about training techniques and equipment used. For Gods sake, a bridle can be used in an inhumane manner with a cruel hand on the end of the reins!! Crazy.... What do you think? Education....Common sense rules, with common sense enforcement. Non-political- boy that would be a breathe of fresh air. It really needs to be stopped, such a great breed that gives so much- they deserve better. The horses are the victims of greed and ego and prestige and they are the ones who get the trainers,breeders and owners those things by doing the job you tell them to do no matter what. Sorry for rambling, but I'm revved up.

[attafox]

rhettdgn;

Why would horseowners keep their show horses with the slimey ones that do this, wouldn't you change your trainer if you saw these practices at the barn you keep your horses at? ... It really needs to be stopped, such a great breed that gives so much- they deserve better. The horses are the victims of greed and ego and prestige and they are the ones who get the trainers,breeders and owners those things by doing the job you tell them to do no matter what. Sorry for rambling, but I'm revved up.

My long time trainer used to train Walking Horses. He got out of it because his customers insisted that he use scootin' juice like the other barns (admittedly, this is ancient history). However, when you have people who are chasing the almight blue ribbon, you will get owners who will not be proactive for their horses (and this is regardless of breed or discipline) and will turn a blind eye to what is happening. Or, in the case of the absentee owner, they just don't know what happens. That's why I'm usually pretty suspicious of a barn where I have to make an appointment to see my horse ... (and no, I'm not talking about coming to the barn during non-working hours).

So yeah, there are owners who at best, don't know and, at worst, encourage bad practices at the expense of the animal. :taz:

[rhettdgn]

It isn't that I don't understand the dynamics of the industry, I do. Although maybe the owners of the horses found to be in violation when inspected is the place to direct penalties to. Is that the way the suspesion list works? If the trainer brings through the horse and it doesn't pass, are the trainer and owner "written up" and suspended or just the trainer? What if...Joe Jones (made up name), the trainer, takes... "Fire Blazin' Jack"(made up) through inspection, gets written up and leaves, goes to next show, gets through because he's friendly with the inspector and shows.....Why isn't his penalty immediate. Maybe the horse/owner should be put immediately in a database that can be available instantly and that owner can't show any horse from the trainers barn, as well as, the horse that was sore. How about owner has to go through a period of time when they can't show any horses they own or the one that was sore also including a longer and steeper enforced penalty to the trainer. An owner that doesn't go to the shows or the facility that isn't aware of what the practices are claim "they didn't know" well, absence and ignorance aren't really a good excuse. I know it happens, but of the owners aren't able to show any of their horses, because one didn't make it through the inspection, you can probably conclude they would be pretty upset with Joe Jones for "soring" the horse. What about probation type ideas? Sorry...my thread probably sounds confusing and crazy, but you can figure out what I heading towards.

[longshanks]

The original purpose for starting this thread was to help people understand how soring started, what the practice entails, how it is percieved, and to illustrate the inadequacies of the inspection process as it is. It is impossible to end this practice without understanding ALL of it. I didn't post the methodology part so that people could try it out for themselves. I did it to illustrate how to get around the system and thus put those who do try to put sound horses in the ring at a disadvantage. It is regretable that some have taken my good intentions as slanderous breed bashing and used this misinterpretation as a justification to criticize, discredit, condem and threaten me. At the end of the day, I and those who have engaged in screaming at, belittling and threatening me are probably much more in agreement than most would realize.

I will be the first to say that the progress made within the breed is remarkable and should be recognized and celebrated. Further, the BL horses of today are a more natural, cleaner product than ever before, despite the short comings of the inspection system. In order to keep the breed moving in a positive direction, I would suggest adopting all of the white paper recommendations made by the AAEP. Further, judging standards should be altered to tie the freeer horse over the squarer horse even if the crowd disagrees. Penalties for infractions of the rules should increase in severity for both trainers and owners to the point that they simply becoming unwilling to go there. Close the loopholes so that a trainer on suspension cannot continue to put horses in the ring under the name of a spouse, child, customer or employee. Make trainers guilt of breaking the rules ineligible for honors like Trainer of the Year or serving on WHTA. Unite the HIOs under one breed organization because none of us is as great as all of us. These are the things that can push the good progress made since passing the HPA of 1970 into great progress to protect and promote the most versatile breed in the world today.
Walkinghorseowner, I apologize for ruffling your feathers. I knew that I would catch hell along the way, but hopefully you realize now that my intentions were in fact good and I am not the worst person in the world (maybe 2nd to Bill O'Reilly). Now that that's out of the way, what do you think about the ideas I posted in the previous paragraph? What would you as an owner and breeder like to see changed/adapted to make the process more effective and why? How do you propose getting a uniform interpretation of the scar rule?

[walkinghorseowner]

First of all without going thru the long history etc....IMO the biggest problem is that all inspections are subjective and inconsistant.....the next problem is that buraucracies have been developed in both the government and the industry (and you know what bureaucracies do...).....I am for the simple solution..... send all horses, who are not compliant with the HPA back to the trailer AND send all horses who should not be shown (as in OK with the HPA, but not an image that should be in the ring (such as horses that are just "off", rider unable to handle or any other reason a horse would be unacceptable to show that day etc) back to the trailer....EVERY SINGLE TIME......
then hold the judges responsible to tie a free going proper moving horse EVERY TIME>>>> the incorrect issue has been addressed for 40 years...what ype of horse is the image we want should be the focus...
what results is the pressure of the blue works.... what ties in the ring, is the type of horse that will be presented, is the type of horse that will be trained and is the type of horse that will be bred.....
this idea of picking up feet, parting hair, using multi million dollar equipment to try to figure out whether and horse is sore is ridiculous... any knowledgeable horseman/vet can tell whether that horse belongs in the ring, or not (for whatever reason)...it is the tap dance about enforcing the law that is the problem, it is time we focused more on the image of the horse in the ring.....
if an owner's horse is turned down 3,4, 5 or 6 times, that owner will change trainers.(why can't you get this horse in..joe smith gets his in)...problem solved...enough horses leave, trainer is out of business......
right now there is a task force composed of 5 vets and some other individuals who are studying the white paper, the industry inspection processes, interviewing owners and trainers, breeder etc..talking with the government,they will write a report with recommendations for restructuring... I personally feel very excited about this... in the past two years I have seen the type of horse demanded by our industry as changing ...they are free going (but they still do a bunch)....gone are the hock ringing sitting deep can't come up horses for the most part....

[walkinghorseowner]

Evidently we were posting at the same time.... I and many others have been addressing these issues for several years and as your can see by the initiation of the TASK Force, the industry is addressing these issues..... and I manged to do this without writing all about how to sore a horse.......
the back to trailer, closes the looopholes without a lot a bureacracy....when a barn can't get horses into the ring it doesn't matter whose name is on the paper as trainer.....horses will leave if they can't be shown.... profits will fall and business will suffer..they will either change or cease to exist......

People also have to realize just because a padded horse can do a bunch does not mean he is sore....there are factions out there that cannot get beyond that.... they will never be happy no matter what the industry does.....
It is akin to the tail cutting faction in your industry... there is nothing wrong or cruel about it, but there are some that just will not accept that....

[rhettdgn]

I am impressed with the direction that this is going in. I think the owners may pressure their trainers to conduct themselves better if they can't show their horse or horses if they get suspended. I believe that the judges also have to set the precedent that they simply will not pin these horses that they see as being sored and are in the ring showing. PERIOD. EVERY TIME!!! If I were judging...Maybe actually excusing them from the class would send the message loud and clear...Now wouldn't that go over well!!
This also should apply to all breeds. If the horse is sore, he should not get a pass because of what he/she has won in the past or who owns it or trains it. I agree that consistency is the key. I must say that I keep running back in to check this thread as I am fascinated by the information Walkinghorseowner and Longshanks are including. Great dialogue. Give me more as to the history and connection between the two breeds. What type of shoe does a BL horse carry behind or is that too much of a generalization? I realize that going for the long stride is the deal, but what kind of support does the back shoe offer the horse, everything comes from their backend...M

[rhettdgn]

Longshanks Would you please finish your original story for us as well

[longshanks]

Oh, Rhettdgn, for the purposes of this thread, I think I'm through with history, after all there's no use beating a dead horse, right (Oh I just kill myself sometimes!). Our conversation on this thread has moved beyond history, mindset and methodology and is more into fixing the system to continue moving the breed forward. I'd love to talk about good horses and history, though, so start a new thread and let's swap back and forth. I'd actually like to have a thread to talk about good horses and not about the crappy issues in the industry. I think I'll start one right now. Well, maybe in a few minutes.

[walkinghorseowner]

The hind shoe on a TWH varies, but it is most comonly a plain shoe, with a calk on the inside and a turnout and caulk on the outside.......
here is a picture and the common sizes the most common is http://www.wcircle.com/inc/sdetail/1113

here is a specialty shoe http://www.wcircle.com/inc/sdetail/1114

and of course you can use a plain keg shoe etc behind..

the ideal is stability....a horse that slips behind is uncomfortable and can hurt himself...you want a nice solid landing behind...
weight wise, the general rule is light behind unless the horse needs more swing then you have a heavier shoe....
remmeber too, there is no action behind...you want the hind foot to travel as close to the ground as possible...extend fully forward and stay on the ground until the leg is fully extended behind

[longshanks]

That's right. In fact, on a horse that is really good behind, there will be scuff marks on the front of the rear hooves from skimming along the ground. Any "step" or hock action behind is not good.

[rhettdgn]

Well that makes sense that caulks and trailers, (without length of foot?) would be effective without giving them motion(behind of course), length of stride solid full landing and support underneath without any slip. They would definitely need to have stick, hold and grip to drive themselves forward to take that huge stride. Okay back to topic: although I could come up with thousands of questions re: training, shoeing and conditioning TWH. As I've trained and worked mainly Morgans and ASB's I would love to pick your brains, but what do you think about my ideas for judging and a judges refusal to judge a "sore" horse in the ring ie: excusing them from the class. What other concepts could you come up with and where to next?

[rhettdgn]

Also, way back when we were reading about the history someone asked how Wilson Allen was connected in this....Who Wilson Allen?
I think the idea about taking away the honors that Assoc. award is a good idea for those on suspension. The ASB names horse of the year and div.riders of the year, Do the TWH Assoc's do this as well? If so how about taking away their eligibility for these honors or pulling their year end points from them. How many national TWH Assoc are there? I came up with three, but I have no idea.
When is the task force coming out with their report?

[longshanks]

There's already a clause in place that allows a judge to excuse "bad image" horses from a class. A bad image horse is crampy, labored, too square and can't come up (that means go running walk). Usually a bad image horse is walking in place, fighting the air and going nowhere. Maybe he is jumping and spinning the chains. Part of the problem with excusing this horse is that you could very well be showing in front of its trainer tomorrow night. You don't have to tie him first, but you don't want to make tomorrow night's judge look bad do you? See the problem?

Start a new thread on Wilson's Allen. His offspring are a whole nother subject (he's the sire of Midnight Sun)

[rhettdgn]

Whoops!!!I did say before that TWH industry was a mystery to me. I just assumed Wilson's Allen was a person, not a horse. My apologies to you for assuming that. I do see your point about excusing a horse from the ring. It is the same way in the ASB industry and ALL breeds. The judges are trainers in their industry and if you take care of him/her she'll take care of you. It's just like Congress. Be back soon have to go out and feed the gang!!

[walkinghorseowner]

Also any horse found to be non compliant in post show exam has his ribbon and prize money taken away (all first place horses are inspected immediately post show).... any violations are written up(this goes pre and post show), notice is given and they have the right of a hearing (with an independant jury), or they can just take the suspension....the hearing costs $600...

[rhettdgn]

Okay, I'm back. My gang is all munching away. How does the pre and post inspections work? Does the horse get inspected when they are warming the horse up right before they show or is it done prior to any classes beginning. Does the post inspection differ than the pre. I am concerned about the post inspection, Even if you were ethical and showed your horse without soring or any gojuice, what if the chains put a chafe on the horse would that get you written up? Sometimes when the ground is wet and you work your horse in stretchies or even bell boots or chains, no matter what the weight, it could be just leathers you can get a rub or chafe from the dirt sticking to the legs- feet, you know what I mean. Can or will they differentiate from the two or is it any mark at all. Where is the line drawn?

[SmartAlex]

Why do the photos I've seen look like the horse's pasterns are short and thick, the hoof contracted and the hair wavy? Is the hair thicker and the hoof contracted as a result of the soring? Or is it that the coronet band isn't clipped like I'm used to seeing?

http://www.silverphoenixranch.com/index_files/image9861.jpg

[rhettdgn]

Well, it looks to me that the horse simply hasn't been clipped. The heels do seem tight (contracted) somewhat, but why would you just assume that the horse in photo is a victim of soring? If I was working a horse shod up like the one in the photo that wears a chain probably every time he/she gets worked in prep to showing I darn sure wouldn't clip his legs back with the inspections that they have to go through. I would want to protect him especially if your one of the good guys that is against soring. When you clip your saddlebred and put chains or stretchies on them in the spring, they can get a rub if you use a close clipping blade...IMO...It doesn't look all that different than a ASB foot/leg that is left unclipped.. okay, well maybe a bit more package than what we do, but you know what I mean. Am I misunderstanding your question? If so...help!!!

[SmartAlex]

You are not misunderstanding my question. What I see in that photo is a pastern and coronet band which look to have a width either greater than the hoof wall itself, or at least greater than pasterns I am used to seeing. I was wondering if the thickness of the hair and the poor quality of the hoof wall were by products of soring. So many TWH I have seen in the past looked like they had very flimsey hooves and I wouldn't expect them to hold up to much weight or concussion that might be generated by the weight of the package, or the big stride. You're right, if the object is to have as much hair intact as possible during inspection, I'm sure I wouldn't clip my horses. And, very short hair would cause rubs. but then, when I clip, I only take off the long fetlock hairs and edge the coronet, I don't clip the whole hid shorter.

[longshanks]

You're a quick study there, SmartAlex. I can't say the horse is or has been sored based on the photograph of one leg. Nobody can. But, IMO, this horse has probably been through the drill. I don't think I've ever seen a saddlebred grow hair like that on his feet. I wonder why. But note, this website is run by an anti BL group and has their own agenda, so what you see here is the worst of the worst and not necessarily representative of what is in the ring today. Also, judging from the size of the chains, this picture is probably quite old. They look like they weight more than 6 oz., so that would put the picture from the early 80's at least.

[D_BaldStockings]

Re: the pictured hoof

This appears to be a huge (currently illegal) stack and heavy chain -agree that this is an older photo.

As to the proportions seen, in my opinion there is severe contraction showing here combined with dishing and shrinking of the hoof capsule -that hoof is not 'original' to the horse in size. The pastern may be thickened although if you cover the hoof itself with your hand it does not really appear that unusual. TWH have heavier bone than most Saddlebreds and a bit of the old Morgan /trotting type hairyfootedness; obviously varying by individual.
Looks like the horse has been shod up for a long time.

[longshanks]

It's the size of the chain that dates the photo, not the size of the package the horse is wearing. That huge package could very well be, and probably is, a legal shoe today. The legal parameters are established by the length of the natural foot.

[rhettdgn]

We live in New England and my ASB's get just as hairy as the Morgans here. It does appear that this horse has probably worn a package for quite awhile which can cause contracted heels. He is up pretty steep, all the built up TWH seem to sit very steep with the pads and wedges that they use to build the package. I'll tell ya' I've seen plenty of older Morgan and ASB show horses that have similar problems from being in show shoes for very long time. You definitely need a great horseshoer for sure.

[rhettdgn]

I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that the horse has a dished foot, the photo is taken from behind, although he is narrow and a bit contracted, I can't even see the side of his foot. The chain rule is now 6 oz. is that correct. When did they change the rule, I think it was mentioned in a prior thread, but I'm blonde. Would a horse be worked in a heavier chain at home or would it always be the same weight that you show in? With the ASB's you alter chain, weight,leather etc. depending on what you'll be working at on that given day. For instance, you wouldn't do bending or elongating excercise in running W's or stretchers.

[SmartAlex]

I can't find which photographer did the Celebration this year, so I'll just keep this historical.... It has been a loooong time since I saw a big lick horse at one of our shows, and I don't know what a legal stack looks like these days. But, back in the eighties, I would see hooves that looked small and shriveled to me. Which was a suprise, because the two plain shod TWH we've had in the barn had large round substantial hooves. They weren't particularly shaggy either. I live in western NY, and the ASBs we have never get much shag on their legs even when the rest of them look like woolybears.
I remember looking at the World Champion tack catalog and seeing horses whose pasterns were thick and stubby with shaggy, wavy hair. I know now that the wave comes mostly from the fact that they wear stall wraps. But, the thick pasterns and heavy hair was always a curiousity to me. Obviously a horse with long sloping pasterns wouldn't hold up to that gait. I would expect a lot of suspensory problems, but I was wondering if the stress and soring actually thickened the pasterns and hide that much.

[rhettdgn]

Okay, your right about that. Back in the day, going back to the low to mid eighties, when I was an eq kid I watched the TWH show at Syracuse. I always watch horses warm up, I think you get and see more watching what happens before they show than just them showing. Standing in the warm up, there were a couple of horses that were actually bleeding. I think it ended up being a big deal as the trainers got in trouble, but honestly we had so many horses showing that year, (I also groomed for the barn I showed out of) I can't remember any other specifics, but I can call my old trainer to see if she remembers the full monty. Unfortunately she never forgets anything.

[walkinghorseowner]

in reference to the pix...that appears to be a 10 oz cahin..which may date that picture to prior to 1988... no we do not clip the hair close...we do trim it to neaten it up around the coronary band, and the long hairs off the back o fthe fetlock....
untill recently the walking hores were just hairy..with the influx of a different "line" (post 1980) we have startered to produce finer horses all around, including the finer coats similar to saddlebreds.. and IMO hotter horses
a walking horse does not carry a long natural hoof.... we cut back to the solid about a 4 inch length.....many of our horses are low in the heels... we also have a hereditary fault produced in one line of one faulty hoof (club).....
a lot of maintainance goes into keeping the hoof healthy...proper trimming, keeping heel spread and timely shoeing.....
the proportiona of the padded horse ae... toe must be 1 inch longer than the heel...and the build up at the toe cannot measure more than 1/2 of the natural foot...ie 4 inch natural foot = 2 inches of built up at the toe..overall 6 inhes... I have seen saddlebreds carry more natural foot than that (although this was years ago)

[SmartAlex]

I've just been paging through proofs from this years Celebration (on Shane Shiflet's site) I will give ya'll one thing. You understand that the heel needs support (the overall shoe needs to come back so if you dropped a plumb line from the ball of the heel, it would hit shoe). Heel support is something that the ASB shoeing sometimes lacks.
But, some of those stacks look like they are higher than half the toe length at the toe to me.

[walkinghorseowner]

Looks are deceiving....they were all measured and were OK... they do not evcen allow an error at all..... not even a 1/16.....

[rhettdgn]

Due to the pre-inspection process and the issues before these officials, I would take an educated guess that at the Celebration- TWH World Championship you could darn well bet that they would be under a microscope there. This whole issue of soring and bending the rules is pretty hot and why would the HS Committee take any chances that would have a major impact on the TWH industry as a whole. Remember in 2006 there wasn't even a World Championship held. I love a long footed well shod horse, but I'm a stickler when it comes to support and balance. You can't take a ASB put a long foot on it without really good heel support and ask it to travel above level on a soft surface without taking a big risk. I would think that these trainers are pretty meticulous about these horses being dead on, it looks like to me the way these horses are shod up and conditioned are most likely the first priorities. How could they work like they do if they aren't just right-JMO
'

[longshanks]

Here are some articles that I think everyone would find interesting

http://www.fosh.info/hpalist.htm
scroll to the bottom to find links
there are links here on USDA violations and suspensions served in the last year as well as those currently being served. I spy three trainers of former WGC horses (and the spouse of one) who are currently on suspension.

An interesting article on a recent pressure shoeing case. Very succesful trainer known for his amatuer instruction
http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/tennessee_walking_horse_cruelty_case_082307.html

A profile of trainers who were honored by their peers as "Trainer of the Year"
http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/biglicktwh/WHTA.htm

A series of presentations conducted at the Sound Horse Conference. Information on many topics relevant to this thread. Check out "How Information and Communications Can Help" I know its a long presentation, but the statistics are startling.
http://www.soundhorseconference.com/Proceedings.htm

[walkinghorseowner]

The second case on pressure shoeing was dealt with by the trainers association...even though they had no legal jurisdiction...... and based on the legalities there was a break in chain of custody of the animal..nonetheless, the trainer who was manager of the barn where the horse came from (there were several assitant trainers)agreed to a 5 year suspension of his trainers license. My contention is that the blacksmith shold have been prosecuted.....but gain the case did not meet the test of legalities and actual proof in court....

[walkinghorseowner]

Now Longshanks I am waiting for you to post all the positive things written about the TWH.....
Amazing the things you seem to think everyone is interested in are all the bad and negative parts of the TWH industry....
BTW have you left our industry and are now involved in saddlebreds or do you still hold a job in a walking horse barn....

[longshanks]

I'm not sure what is so amazing about including information that is relevant to the topic of this thread

My current breed affiliations and involvment is not the topic here. I am and shall remain an enigma.

[rhettdgn]

Maybe...perhaps....Longshanks is trying to tell me in a diplomatic way that my previous thread may be a bit naive. I truly don't think it matters whether someone has changed breeds or not. I am very interested in how things work and I always try to look for the good, but in the real world people do some pretty awful things. I believe that if a horse is pressure shod (Ithink that it the correct term) that the blacksmith should be nailed as well as the owner and the trainer, what do you mean by the "chain of custody" are you seriously trying to have us conclude someone took this horse "behind the barn" changed his shoeing and then presented the horse "pressure shod" I don't know if I could eat that. I little tall of tale.(If that is what you are alluding to). But I can probably take an educated guess as to walkinghorseowner is, but that stays in my head. Won't go there. I really would like to understand the TWH world and I don't like to judge things that I don't directly know or understand. People is glass houses and all that...I love ASB's and Morgans they are absolutely amazing to live and work with. I've had many different breeds of horses throughout my life (even a mini) and I will always be a diehard fan of both these breeds. They can do anything and that is what is so incredible about the breed, but I am fascinated by your breed and would love to hear about the breed and industry, but if we could get back to Longshanks story....I am ready for more. Lets try not to attack one another because we differ...Lets move forward...PLEASE

[walkinghorseowner]

FYI....the chain of custody has to do with the whole story...which you did not get...the horse was with trainer A ...he was moved to trainer B.... I believe it was almost a week went by...new trainer says horse doing great,owner comes to see horse, something is wrong with horse.... vet called pressure found.... trainer B blames Trainer A... no substantiating evidence about who shod what when...trainer B claims last shoein at trainer A barn.... nothing can be proved...but trainer A says although he did not do it, he was responsible for all horses in his care...he accepts a 5 year suspension from the WHTA of his trainers kicense...which means he cannot show without a trainers license....

[walkinghorseowner]

http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/news.aspx?cid=5865
http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/news.aspx?cid=5864
http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/news.aspx?cid=5852
http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/news.aspx?cid=5832
http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/news.aspx?cid=5825

the above are a few articles... please read...

[attafox]

Unfortunately, just like SHR, you can't read the articles without being a subscriber, and while many here subscribe to SHR (the sister publication), those registrations don't work for Walking Horse Report.

[walkinghorseowner]

oh darn..... I sure do not want to take the space to cut and paste...any suggestions?

[rhettdgn]

Whether it is trainer A or B the horse was pressure shod and that is inhumane no matter who took the suspension. There are many that are under federal suspension and they use anothers license and name and continue on like it is a big laugh to be on the list. Why are you so defensive about this issue? You should be standing tall and speaking loud as possible to stop these cruel horrendous practices fron occurring. These are incredible athletes and they simply can do it without being tortured. I don't care how many grooms you have rubbing them down and grooming them, caring for them to the nines, if a human being is using these practices they should be put in jail never mind suspensions, pulling their licenses and lists . If I were a real trainer and got a horse from trainer A (insiders know who do and don't do things) I would have had that horse checked from head to toe. Someone had to have paid the horseshoer no matter if Trainer A or Trainer B had the horse shod. I would have had my horseshoer tear him down and be sure what I was getting. I apologize if I'm offending anyone, but cruelty is just that, these guys shouldn't get written up, they should get arrested and booked. Ya Boy!!!!! Chain of custody?? That is ridiculous.

[D_BaldStockings]

Longshanks,
in your first post on this thread, you led off with: "I've been involved in the TWH industry since the mid-80's, and follow the soring debate with great interest. Most of the information about this heinous practice focuses on the wrongness and cruelty of soring but the history of the practice is largely ignored. I want to try and give some background on how and why this awful thing got started in the first place."

If there is anything else historical to add, please do.

All stories come to an end...how can we end this one? Meaning end soring?

Walkinghorseowner,
I think your nutshell version covered the case rather well, but leaves me curious as to the effect of suspension...is it a suspension from appearing on a horse at a show or more? If it is supposed to restrict business and income, how deeply is it enforced, i.e. can't train, can't buy/sell, can't board, can't give lessons...What about immediate family members acting as strawbosses for the suspendee? Does it have any real effect?

Thanks,
mary

[rhettdgn]

I believe that the punishment for having a horse your care that is pressure shod was a lifetime suspension from the Trainers Assoc. Whereas the TWH Assoc. gave the trainer a 5 year suspension. Wasn't there a code of ethics enstated in 2007 for this very problem. I believe that they just put someone elses name/license down as trainer, I can't find anything that says it stops the suspended trainer from operating his facility, ie: lessons, training @ home, buying/selling. I can only see that he/she can't be listed as the trainer at the show and/or show during the suspension time. Please correct me if this isn't the case.

[rhettdgn]

Oh...sorry Baldstockings, I forgot to include in my last post that the history of soring is in the beginning of this discussion and it will capture you. Longshanks was telling some of the history and things have gotten heated up. It's interesting.......Let me know what you think.

[walkinghorseowner]

If I am not mistaken, the lifetime suspension was instituted because of this case(up to that point there was no stated time period, and this was unique because it did not take place at a show where it would have been covered by standing rules).. this is much more severe than even the USDA suspension for pressure shoeinf caught at a show..... what I was trying to point out is that although we seem to have a need to crucify everyone, we cannot just go about things like a salem witch hunt....there are laws, that need to be addressed. There is absolutly nothing that can be done by any association to the blacksmith.... this was not a case of the horse being shown.... did not fall under the jurisdiction of the USDA, NHSC, or anyone( local authorities require solid proof, chain of custody etc before they can bring charges, they must follow the pareameters of case law)...the trainers did what they could under their ethics rules.....
personally I think people who pressure shoe horses should be shot..... but only after being proven guilty......

[D_BaldStockings]

Slightly off-topic, but
I watched a program on drugs in the Olympics yesterday and the parallels are eerie: complete disregard for the longterm health of the athlete, winning at any cost, keeping the secret within the community, and evading detection the only guidelines of the abusers.

The final note was that so long as there are competitions there will be cheating, and new ways developed to stop the cheaters, when they will find better ways to cheat.

I guess we can be glad that the TWH problems can be detected and addressed. But there is such a rift between those who refuse to cheat but still love and TRAIN for the SHOW horse and those who feel there is no hope within the TWHBEA and are going their separate ways with 'unstacked' Walkers, separate shows, etc. The distrust and factional fracturing of TWH supporters into pieces is tragic.

Rhettdgn -yes, I did read the 'History of' at the beginning and throughout, I have been an avid reader since learning how... The story of cheating is always the same, just the names and how badly the participants are hurt changes. I fear Sportsmanship is a dying concept where winning at any cost is rewarded.

In my opinion, Soring has gone on so long for a very simple reason: Horses don't yelp when they hurt like dogs (or people) do. People are programmed to respond to vocalizations of pain and distress, prey animals like horses are programmed NOT to make pain noises, since that would draw predators.
So people who claim to love horses can ignore or simply not recognize the awfulness of their actions or the actions of those caring for their horses.

JMO
Mary

[scrtwh]

Slightly off-topic, but
In my opinion, Soring has gone on so long for a very simple reason: Horses don't yelp when they hurt like dogs (or people) do. People are programmed to respond to vocalizations of pain and distress, prey animals like horses are programmed NOT to make pain noises, since that would draw predators.
So people who claim to love horses can ignore or simply not recognize the awfulness of their actions or the actions of those caring for their horses.

JMO
Mary

I agree, the horse is programmed to not show weakness, or they are someones dinner and they try so dam hard to do what is asked. I don't know a single breed that won't still try to work when lame or feeling off, so ... I don't know if it is so terrible to have those factions. As an active member of the NWHA, I feel it is important to not support in any way the padded horse shows. I know not everybody sores, and kudos for them, but I think there is a lot of folks that are covering up for those who do and I refuse to put my hard earned money anywhere near them.

[walkinghorseowner]

The idea of not supporting padded horses because there are rule violations, but supporting NWHA is not logical.....there were several horses turned out of the big NWHA show recently..... people cheat, padded or flat, NWHA NHSC or USEF....... nothing is perfect..the only thing that can be done is to make and enforce rules that make it difficult to cheat.........
http://www.thescooponline.com/08scoopnews/nhscestablishspecialtaskforce924.asp

and to continue.. this is a quote from the Walking Horse Report article giving the recap of the Celbration

"During the 11-day event, a total of 3,038 horses passed through inspection. Working side-by-side, USDA and industry inspectors handed out a total of 187 violations. With the new, stricter inspection measures in place, 95 percent of the horses entered in the show were deemed in compliance with the federal Horse Protection Act (HPA) and with Tennessee’s Anti-Soring Ordinance. This year’s violations were in line with the five-year average with the exception of scar rule and unilateral sensitivity violations. The breakdown of the violations is as follows: 100 scar rule, 58 unilateral sensitivity, 15 bilateral sensitivity and 14 technical violations.

“The NHSC takes pride in its affiliation with the Celebration and the USDA, and is making sure action is being taken against those persons that violate the HPA,” said Mark Farrar, chairman of the National Horse Show Commission. “However, it says something to us that most of the violations were connected to the scar rule, which is arguably the most subjective of all violations.”

Some attribute the one percent decrease in compliance from 2007 to this year’s increased and more consistent presence of USDA inspectors. In 2007, USDA inspectors were present four out of the 11 nights of the Celebration, as opposed to the full 11 nights this year.

“Inspections went as planned, and we were at the Celebration to do everything we could to ensure that sound horses entered the ring,” commented Dr. Rachel Cezar, USDA Horse Protection Coordinator. “We were able to successfully swab horses for chemicals, as well as test new thermographic technology to aid in the detection of non-compliant horses.”

Increased inspection procedures were put into action in 2007 and strengthened at the Celebration this year. Those new procedures were as follows:
• Drug and eye screening of random class winners
• Continued the use of hoof testers and randomly removed and inspected shoes to detect the presence of improper shoeing
• Judges could have no HPA violations from 2008 and were subject to polygraph tests after the event
• Inspection security was increased—only trainers, amateur exhibitors and grooms with the proper identification credentials were allowed in
• USDA and industry inspectors were allowed to inspect horses in the barn areas on the Celebration’s grounds

Farrar was excited by the collective effort from trainers, exhibitors and owners to improve the quality of the horses, and felt the compliance rates were positive this year. “We were fortunate enough to have the USDA inspectors working alongside the industry inspectors throughout the entire Celebration,” remarked Farrar. “Even with the most thorough inspection processes to date, I believe it’s a compliment to the trainers, exhibitors and owners that 95 percent of the horses at The Celebration were compliant.”

President and CEO of the American Humane Association, Marie Belew Wheatley, echoed Farrar’s thoughts on the collective efforts of industry professionals. “My experience at this year’s Celebration in Shelbyville, Tenn., shows that collectively there are several factions coming together to address the concerns that have plagued the industry for the past years.” Wheatley added, “It is encouraging to see this collective spirit of the industry as a whole joining together to improve the treatment and training of the majestic Tennessee Walking Horse." ""

[scrtwh]

Well, the NWHA was founded in direct contrast to the soring issue, and you can bet your booty that anyone who is caught soring carries that stigma for a loooonngg time. That is why I join and continue to support. And quite frankly, I do not care for the padded horse. I don't like the look, I don't like the shoes, I find that they are somewhat grotesque and I don't care for the stresses that it puts on the horses body, so, it is my perogative and my right to not support any padded venues.

[rhettdgn]

There was a quote that I came across a while back:

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
Anna Sewell, author of Black Beauty

It is your decency that compells you to make choices other may find unique. I have always walked my own path and always will. I can understand why there are many people staying away from one assoc. and beginning another and supporting it. Although the TWH industry was forced to make these changes it will take time for things to change. Old habits are hard to break, but changing the mindset of the young is going to pay off(IMHO). I think every industry needs to reflect on the past and present and make changes that are not only good for their breeds, but the actual animals that individually we are so proud of. I think anything is possible if we all keep striving for the betterment of breeds and also to have growth. I apologize for being philisophical- it's been a really rough week!!!!