What makes for a better NSH?

[ScoutRacer]

#1
Sire - NSH
Dam - NSH

#2
Sire - Arabian
Dam - Saddlebred

#3
Sire - Saddlebred
Dam - Arabian

I'm sure each case is different but I'm sure each one produces slightly different NSH's

[attafox]

welllll, what would make for a better show horse would be (IMO)

Sire - ASB
Dam - ASB

Offspring -
100% ASB

:001_tongue:

[ScoutRacer]

ASB = American Saddlebred

I was asking about NSH or were you being a smart guy by saying ASB's are better than NSH :)

[attafox]

Well, let's just put it this way ... never met an NSH that I liked better than a 100% ASB ... (but at least they are 50%)

[Fanfare]

Lol :D Love it attafox! Agree 100%

[roadpony]

Scoutracer:

You have to remember that this is a Saddlebred forum. Yes there are a few Arabian and/or NSH owners here, but our main focus,, and love, is the Saddlebred.

[D_BaldStockings]

Interestingly, every breeding is different, including full siblings, especially when you cross 2 breeds. I have seen some very Arabian looking types from all of the possible crosses, and the same goes for Saddlebred types.

I have seen full siblings that make you wonder if there was foal swapping going on (Not in that case).

You want to start with very good individuals as mates; with hopefully complementary pedigrees and similar performance abilities and from families that also produce high percentages of solid individuals....then get lucky.

Studying breeding is a lifelong pastime that never grows dull or predictable!

[Renae]

I think the best combo is 3/4 Saddlebred 1/4 Arabian if you don't care about being able to show Half-Arabian.

In a 50-50 combo I don't think it matters if the sire or dam is the Arabian, but it is harder to find a really good Arabian English performance mare than an equal quality Saddlebred mare, so you see the Saddlebred as the dam more often.

And I have known several great National Show Horses that many of you strong Saddlebred fans would never be able to tell weren't straight Saddlebred. I wish we could all just breed and show good show horses regardless of wether or not they were "purebred" anything.

[ScoutRacer]

I don't like pure bred arabians only arabian mixes thats why I love my NSH

[exodus farm]

The NSH that I like have always been a by a nice english arabian stud out of a big, wide chested, well bred saddlebred mare.

[ASB Stars]

Mike Nichols had HUGE success buying up the very best ASB mares he could find, and crossing them on his fabulous Arabian stud, Barberry. Of course, this was some years ago, but they definitely set the standard.

[smorrow923]

I think the best combo is 3/4 Saddlebred 1/4 Arabian if you don't care about being able to show Half-Arabian.

In a 50-50 combo I don't think it matters if the sire or dam is the Arabian, but it is harder to find a really good Arabian English performance mare than an equal quality Saddlebred mare, so you see the Saddlebred as the dam more often.

And I have known several great National Show Horses that many of you strong Saddlebred fans would never be able to tell weren't straight Saddlebred. I wish we could all just breed and show good show horses regardless of wether or not they were "purebred" anything.

Very well said Renae. :)

[SmartAlex]

I think the best combo is 3/4 Saddlebred 1/4 Arabian if you don't care about being able to show Half-Arabian.

I agree with this. We bred some really nice NSH with this formula. One was National Champion Jr. Ex Five Gaited horse.

[mlinky]

OK, this isn't really on point, but I always wondered, why bother with crosses? It seems that the winningest NSH's are much closer to the saddlebred standard than the arabian standard. What does the arabian add? Why not just go purebred saddlebred?

[smurphy0806]

Unfortunatley I would say the NSH world is very small. There just don't seem to be many classes or shows offered, asside from Finals, that offer NSH classes. So if you want a horse to show... I would say ASB mare, with Arabian Stud. There are PLENTY of high quality Arabian English Studs out there. However there are very few mares. I don't really know why, the mares just don't have as much motion. Or perhaps we never really see them show because they are always throwing out babies. Its much easier to buy a quality ASB mare that has motion (haha, how many don't have motion!) than an Arabian Mare with motion. I think thats the main reason why that cross is so popular. And then buy a breeding to a stud.

However, if you were lucky enough to find an Enlgish Performance type purebred mare, I would definately say this would give out the maximum motion. Because then you would get to pick the ASB stud, and well that would just rock!

Say I was Leah Beth Boyd, who owns Starr Light, a multi national champion Arabian Mare in Park and English, for Junior, Amateur, and Open. I would breed her to an ASB... but it would have to be a mare that had her motion or pedigree. And she only wants to breed purebreds.... what a waste.

I don't think NSH to NSH is that great of a cross. Simply because you can't show it except on the NSH circuit. If you are going to only show on the NSH circuit, then why not do NSH to ASB and get even MORE motion?

[attafox]

Okay, by "better" NSH, what do you mean? A better show horse? Because that's what the answers are geared towards. However, on the other thread, you are stating that the one you currently have is going to be used for speed events. If that is the case, you'd probably want to look at crossing Arabian racing lines with Saddlebred lines and not look for motion as the "up/down" would waste forward speed (in some cases - obviously, we all know how fast a racking horse can move with motion!).

Once again, I'm confused and not sure what the point of your question actually is ...

[smorrow923]

OK, this isn't really on point, but I always wondered, why bother with crosses? It seems that the winningest NSH's are much closer to the saddlebred standard than the arabian standard. What does the arabian add? Why not just go purebred saddlebred?

Why bother? Hybrid vigor. You take two things and the corss is, genetically, predispositioned to be better than the two parents. You want the best parents you can find so you get an equally exceptional foal.

So you breed and ASB and an arab. You, supposedly, get the action and upright-ness(that's really not a word!) of an ASB but the more refined body type and stamina of an arab. When the arabian world opened up half arab classes and arabs started to do saddle seat, everyone said "SADDLEBREDS!" and they started the cross. The NSH Registry was started as a way to market these horses and let them have their own national show. Was it someone tooting their own horn so to speak? The "I can have my own registry with my own horses too!" attitude, maybe.

I do think the NSH is at a low point now. Registrations are down and there just isn't as much "excitement" around it as there once was.

You also have to realize that most NSHs can be shown HA as well. So take this into consideration:

When I was a junior rider I had as many as 8 horses in my show string. I had a SS equ horse, a PB country horse(two actually-one was borrowed..haha), a PB english/park gelding. That's a lot but what the heck-if I can have a NSH that I can show in NSH AND HA classes at the same show, why not get the most bang for my buck and enter as many classes as I can and take my HA/NSH Country mare and my HA/NSH english gelding? Throw in a client's HA/NSH mare I could show in open and JTR.

As to why a saddlebred cross and not morgan or hackney(though it happens!), it just makes for a nice horse, in my opinion. if you're into arabs and want to show more, an arab/asb cross is probably going to be your best bet. I also think that the NSH sets up mor elike an arab(a more vertical head set) as opposed to the saddlebreds while still allowing for better action like the saddlebred.

[SmartAlex]

OK, this isn't really on point, but I always wondered, why bother with crosses? It seems that the winningest NSH's are much closer to the saddlebred standard than the arabian standard. What does the arabian add? Why not just go purebred saddlebred?

Speaking as a hobby breeder, back then the market for NSH was pretty darn good. We had a couple of nearby Arab Stables tht were moving that way. IMO it was a way for them to use their current stock, and familiar faces to dabble in these "big fire breathing dragons".

Some of them were really neat, and that leads to the whole discussion of outcrossing and hybrid vigor, but I would wan't to be accused of going :offtopic: two days in a row :001_tt2:

smorrow and I were typing at the same time, and agreeing!

[smurphy0806]

As to why a saddlebred cross and not morgan or hackney(though it happens!), it just makes for a nice horse, in my opinion.

Why not Morgan or Hackney... They just dont cross as well. Hackney's tend to have thicker necks and can not roll over at the poll like the NSH can. They tend to have "wild" canters, that are very animated and sometimes hard to control.

Morgans... well... the cross seems to create a sport type horse for some reason. Back 20 years ago there were lots of Morgan crosses, but they didn't turn out the way we thought. Think of the DHH and arabian cross, they turn into GREAT dressage prospects, but not very good ss horses. There are some breeders discovering and trying to breed the Morgan to the Arabian. And good luck to them. Perhaps they will have more luck.

So why are NSH's more popular than Morgan or Hackney crosses... becuase all of the other crosses get something negative with the cross. The NSH just doesn't have any faults.

[SmartAlex]

So why are NSH's more popular than Morgan or Hackney crosses... because all of the other crosses get something negative with the cross. The NSH just doesn't have any faults.


I wonder if the reasons Arabians and Thoroughbreds cross so well with other breeds is that they are both "prototypical" breeds. The Saddlebred, Morgan and Hackney are all sort of hybrid breeds already even though they have been de-hybridized for many generations. Of course that doesn't explain why an Arab/Hackney or Morab wouldn't work, but I think the Morab cross works fairly well.
What I really like are the Arab/QH crosses. The Arab sure classes up a QH, and I already like the QH pretty well.

[smorrow923]

Why not Morgan or Hackney... They just dont cross as well. Hackney's tend to have thicker necks and can not roll over at the poll like the NSH can. They tend to have "wild" canters, that are very animated and sometimes hard to control.

Right-Hackneys and morgans tend to give the arabs more of a "beefy", less refined look and while they can be impressive to watch, they are often "clunkier". Not as "light" on their feet and they just seem "bulky". You eliminate with the ASB cross.

[EAinSF]

What does the arabian add? Why not just go purebred saddlebred?

That Arab blood adds some endurance. Arabs can go all day long. A friend of mine used to take her kids and horses on long trail rides, and when her two ASBs were huffing and puffing, the Arabs were barely breaking a sweat.
Another thing the Arab can add is a bit of Arab type - creating what many would consider to be a prettier animal.

Perhaps the greatest advantage to the Half Arabian/ASB cross, is the huge opportunity to show that horse in numerous divisions and in numerous shows. Showing a sweepstakes nominated horse at the regional level and above, you can win thousands at just one show, especially if your horse is versatile enough to show in a few divisions (for instance, halter, EP, Show Hack).

I was speaking with a well known ASB photographer at Breakfast with the Babies - we met at Scottsdale last year. He was blown away by the size and spectator attendance at the show; it usually hovers at around 1800 horses. It lasts a week and a half. Half Arab performance classes are huge - I think I counted 35 in one of those hunt classes; most of them were half ASB.
I have never seen a trainer screaming and cursing at a rider during a class, over the rail, at an Arabian show.

So I think that there are great advantages to owning the cross, for the right person.

[exodus farm]

Why the cross? Well, I really, really like the saddlebred/arab cross. It can pretty up a plain mare might stay, for lack of a better term, jug headed if crossed with another saddlebred. It can add size to a small arab. I have found it to widen a narrow saddlebred's chest and add some bone. My main reason that we have some arabs and half arabs are the shows. There is so much more opportunity, I can show in several halter classes and several performance classes at the same show. The stamina these horses have is incredible. Also, there are a blue million "community shows" which are basically shows that doesn't require a huge budget to show on. I think the last show we went to, we had two stalls and showed in 6 classes and cost about $160!! The feeling of community and everyone working together is so nice. You also don't have to have thousand dollar suits to fit in, there are people that do, but at these shows, the best horse wins, period. A pure saddlebred will always be my favorite breed but until the breed becomes more versatile with more opportunity for AOT, I think you will continue to see a rise in the NSH or the half arab. I have yet to go to a show that has had less than 10 entries per class. Can we say that about our saddlebred shows? I love to show but it has to be affordable, I just can't see paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a 50 cent ribbon. That is one of the reasons the cross is so popular.

[D_BaldStockings]

Coming from a completely different perspective (not Saddleseat) I looked for an Arab to lengthen stride, especially at walk and canter, flatten a croup and raise tail set-on, slope the shoulder more and extend the wither into the back a bit more, and raise the base of the neck higher up out of the base of the chest.
All those traits were affordable in a high quality Arab and much rarer in SB.

I never found much difference in endurance between the 2 breeds, but SB are much easier keepers in my experience. And the SB temperaments meshed with mine better-far more outgoing, interactive and cheerful.

My experience. Probably not transferable to anyone else with the modern day bloodlines as Arabs are bred more SB-like and with AHEM, the same shortcomings becoming more widespread. It is just as easy (meaning difficult) to find really free-moving, straight legged, good backed, nice withers, etc. horses in SB as Arab nowadays, so I have no incentive to go outside the breed.

[mlinky]

Thank you all for your answers. I am obviously not very familiar with Arabs, and I appreciate your insight.

[EAinSF]

It is just as easy (meaning difficult) to find really free-moving, straight legged, good backed, nice withers, etc. horses in SB as Arab nowadays, so I have no incentive to go outside the breed.

Agreed - there is enough *Padron/Bey Shah blood in most of the Arab show stock these days that legs/feet are of huge concern. Those two horses (combined with Ali Jamaal) caused the modern halter Arab to springboard into quite a stunning animal, but at a huge cost.
At least it seems that ASB people are breeding away from low backs? Now if they can just do something about all of those splayed out front legs.

[D_BaldStockings]

Agreed - there is enough *Padron/Bey Shah blood in most of the Arab show stock these days that legs/feet are of huge concern. Those two horses (combined with Ali Jamaal) caused the modern halter Arab to springboard into quite a stunning animal, but at a huge cost.
At least it seems that ASB people are breeding away from low backs? Now if they can just do something about all of those splayed out front legs.

There are plenty of straight Arabs and SBs out there, just not usually in the top show barns if they lack talent or promotion $$.
Every horse has it's merits and flaws; every horseperson judges them differently.

Of course, that's how we ended up with breeds in the first place -difference of opinion.
There's nothing better than a really GOOD horse of ANY breed. I just happen to mesh better with Saddlebreds.