Comments on: Far-Sighted Thoughts from a Near-Sighted Horseman http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/ The Saddlebred Information Source Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:29:45 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Lynn http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-424 Lynn Thu, 01 Oct 2009 00:35:35 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-424 Thank you, Bob, for an excellent, thoughtful article. I grew up in Louisville and watched My My and Forest Song repeatedly win in the 60s, and Yorktown, Mandala, Giddy Up Go and Belle Elegant in the early 70s. I knew Plainview's Lady Louise, who won a 3 gaited pleasure class at Louisville in the 60s for Jyl Adams. She was a classy mare that could flat foot walk with style, but lived in less than modest surroundings at Westglow Stables, a local Louisville boarding stable, and was strictly owner-trained and shown. I won a 3 gaited class with Supreme O'Lee in 1973 (Valley View Supreme x Susie O'Lee). Though he wasn't an easy ride by any means, I still consider him to be inherently the finest horse I've ever laid a leg over. I moved away from Kentucky and switched to dressage in the early 80s. I have owned and trained European warmbloods, Saddlebreds and Morgans for dressage. I still prefer a good Saddlebred to all others. I have always admired the Supreme Sultan horses. With all that said, I will get to the point of this comment. In a nostalgic moment, I started re-subscribing to Saddle Horse Report a few years ago and continue, on a weekly basis, to be awestruck by the "at home horse shows" I am fortunate to receive in absentia, due to the tremendous quality of unsurpassed professional Saddlebred horse show photography and excellent layout spreads. Other than a brief visit to Oak Hill Farm in the mid 80s, I have not actually seen a Saddlebred physically move for about 25 years, until yesterday, when I pulled up some on-line interview videos from Louisville which had video clips of some of the show footage. That is the reason for this message. Bob, you are absolutely correct. The engine is mostly gone from the back end of the Saddlebred. Watching the videos, after looking strictly at only photographs for years, was disappointing and even heartbreaking. Good Saddlebreds used to have HOCK ACTION! A few still had it. But what I mostly saw was tremendously animated front ends pulling the rear ends along. The other significant disappointments I observed were extremely pacey "World Champion" gaited horses and consistently uneven, irregular trots. Excessive speed appeared to be a contributing factor. I am still in shock. The reality of some of the video content was a sharp contrast to the positive impression I received when viewing the photographs. I hope this issue is realized and that these apparent widespread and "acceptable" weaknesses become a strong consideration for better breeding decisions in the future. And, as Bob referenced, I hope that trainers take the time to develop strength and carrying power, to avoid "leg waving" in that respect. Thank you again, Bob, for saying what truly needed to be said. You and your uncle produced some wonderful horses over the years. I hope that your comments are taken to heart and that my inclination to impose my dressage perspective on a different venue isn't just summarily dismissed as irrelevant. Lastly, I want to add that one of the few truly impressive, correct riders and horses I observed was Debbie Foley on Callaway Annabelle ???. She's come a well deserved, long way since the early days of Wine and Roses.... Thank you, Bob, for an excellent, thoughtful article. I grew up in Louisville and watched My My and Forest Song repeatedly win in the 60s, and Yorktown, Mandala, Giddy Up Go and Belle Elegant in the early 70s. I knew Plainview’s Lady Louise, who won a 3 gaited pleasure class at Louisville in the 60s for Jyl Adams. She was a classy mare that could flat foot walk with style, but lived in less than modest surroundings at Westglow Stables, a local Louisville boarding stable, and was strictly owner-trained and shown. I won a 3 gaited class with Supreme O’Lee in 1973 (Valley View Supreme x Susie O’Lee). Though he wasn’t an easy ride by any means, I still consider him to be inherently the finest horse I’ve ever laid a leg over. I moved away from Kentucky and switched to dressage in the early 80s. I have owned and trained European warmbloods, Saddlebreds and Morgans for dressage. I still prefer a good Saddlebred to all others. I have always admired the Supreme Sultan horses. With all that said, I will get to the point of this comment. In a nostalgic moment, I started re-subscribing to Saddle Horse Report a few years ago and continue, on a weekly basis, to be awestruck by the “at home horse shows” I am fortunate to receive in absentia, due to the tremendous quality of unsurpassed professional Saddlebred horse show photography and excellent layout spreads. Other than a brief visit to Oak Hill Farm in the mid 80s, I have not actually seen a Saddlebred physically move for about 25 years, until yesterday, when I pulled up some on-line interview videos from Louisville which had video clips of some of the show footage. That is the reason for this message. Bob, you are absolutely correct. The engine is mostly gone from the back end of the Saddlebred. Watching the videos, after looking strictly at only photographs for years, was disappointing and even heartbreaking. Good Saddlebreds used to have HOCK ACTION! A few still had it. But what I mostly saw was tremendously animated front ends pulling the rear ends along. The other significant disappointments I observed were extremely pacey “World Champion” gaited horses and consistently uneven, irregular trots. Excessive speed appeared to be a contributing factor. I am still in shock. The reality of some of the video content was a sharp contrast to the positive impression I received when viewing the photographs. I hope this issue is realized and that these apparent widespread and “acceptable” weaknesses become a strong consideration for better breeding decisions in the future. And, as Bob referenced, I hope that trainers take the time to develop strength and carrying power, to avoid “leg waving” in that respect. Thank you again, Bob, for saying what truly needed to be said. You and your uncle produced some wonderful horses over the years. I hope that your comments are taken to heart and that my inclination to impose my dressage perspective on a different venue isn’t just summarily dismissed as irrelevant. Lastly, I want to add that one of the few truly impressive, correct riders and horses I observed was Debbie Foley on Callaway Annabelle ???. She’s come a well deserved, long way since the early days of Wine and Roses….

]]> By: ASB Mom http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-419 ASB Mom Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:17:29 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-419 I have read this article many, many times and think it is spot on every time I read it. As my child has grown up in this world, the other disturbing trend is that children are increasingly being mounted on increasingly hot and ill mannered horses. Do people (trainers/parents/children) get so caught up in the competition that they are willing to risk injury to their child and others in the warm up or show ring? I have seen 5 people hold a horse while the 6th puts the child on and everyone gets out of the way.. I have seen a horse rear at every show and they put the child back on - at every show. I have seen children on horses that are way too strong for them and I have even seen parents/trainers ride a horse in a 'throw away' class so that it is better behaved for a child. I know this also happens in the adult ranks - but others are not making the decision for the adult. Will it take a horrible accident to bring back the concern for over mounting the rider? A horse for a child should be suitable for a child. I have read this article many, many times and think it is spot on every time I read it. As my child has grown up in this world, the other disturbing trend is that children are increasingly being mounted on increasingly hot and ill mannered horses. Do people (trainers/parents/children) get so caught up in the competition that they are willing to risk injury to their child and others in the warm up or show ring? I have seen 5 people hold a horse while the 6th puts the child on and everyone gets out of the way.. I have seen a horse rear at every show and they put the child back on – at every show. I have seen children on horses that are way too strong for them and I have even seen parents/trainers ride a horse in a ‘throw away’ class so that it is better behaved for a child. I know this also happens in the adult ranks – but others are not making the decision for the adult. Will it take a horrible accident to bring back the concern for over mounting the rider? A horse for a child should be suitable for a child.

]]> By: Julie http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-410 Julie Sat, 12 Sep 2009 12:04:28 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-410 You mention that the juding is better? Really? If the horses that create disruption in the ring were excused, the ones that pull themselves along or don't truly do 5 gaits were not pinned, then a lot of these issues would go away. The public doesn't tie these horses in competition, JUDGES do. And if they award a bad thinking horse,then you'll see more and more of it. The judges need to adhere to the standards and the horses will appear to be better mannered becaust the trainers won't bring them out until they are ready. This is a wonderful article and we need more of this kind of communication within the breed. You mention that the juding is better? Really? If the horses that create disruption in the ring were excused, the ones that pull themselves along or don’t truly do 5 gaits were not pinned, then a lot of these issues would go away. The public doesn’t tie these horses in competition, JUDGES do. And if they award a bad thinking horse,then you’ll see more and more of it. The judges need to adhere to the standards and the horses will appear to be better mannered becaust the trainers won’t bring them out until they are ready.

This is a wonderful article and we need more of this kind of communication within the breed.

]]> By: Susan http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-409 Susan Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:38:17 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-409 We need to let our training methods be seen by the public. Just because an animal does not scream in pain does not mean that it does not hurt. We know that these horses are the greatest because they usually have good personalities. We need to let these show, as much as their fancy gaits. Maybe we need DQPs (designated qualified professionals) like the Tennessee Walkers have to make sure there are no sored horses at our shows! We need to let our training methods be seen by the public. Just because an animal does not scream in pain does not mean that it does not hurt. We know that these horses are the greatest because they usually have good personalities. We need to let these show, as much as their fancy gaits. Maybe we need DQPs (designated qualified professionals) like the Tennessee Walkers have to make sure there are no sored horses at our shows!

]]> By: Ann http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-367 Ann Fri, 15 May 2009 16:33:40 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-367 I think the PETA, HSUS issue is an interesting topic. I have found that Saddlehorse people are unnecessarily paranoid about somethings, and clueless about other. At the WIHS exhibition last year, some of the Saddle horse volunteers were upset because the jumbotron showed a close up of the walk-trot horses' feet. They were sure the intent was to show the world the heavy shoes and embaress the breed. The reality is they did a close of the trot because it was a cool picture. They did the same thing later with the dressage horse. With the footing in the area, you couldn't tell how long the foot was. I have seen several articles suggesting that we rename chains, stretchies, shackles, etc with kinder, gentler names so as to not put off those unfamiliar with the equipment. At WIHS, another saddlebred person had a small coniption about having a tail set crupper and old rattlers in the display of vintage equipment. Why? There is nothing abusive about a tail set or rattlers. I've kept saddlebreds in an assortment of barns as an AOT, and never had any problems using any specialized training equipment, including chains, stretchies, running W's and a tail set. I get more questions over the jowl sweat, which everyone assumes is for cribbing. I had a girl with hunters contemplating using chains to get her horses' back ends under them. What I think we should be concerned or embarrassed about is all of the weight that is being put on futurity colts. Other than trying to make sure you can win or to correct a defect, there is usually not a good reason for putting shoes of any kind on a weanling. This practice does expose the breed to valid criticism from animal protection groups, and possibly the USDA. The ASHA should change the rules and prohibit shoes or pads on weanlings. Rethinking futurities as a whole probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. As a group, we are continually apologizing for shoes, training methods, and tail sets. We give the impression that there we are hiding or sugar coating things, when there is nothing to apologize for. This gives animal protection and rights groups a leg up. This institutional paranoia seems to be more prevalent among those who patronize smaller open shows, which is especially bad, since they have more interaction with other breeds. You have a saddlebred, think like the peacock your horse is, and hold your head up high. I think the PETA, HSUS issue is an interesting topic. I have found that Saddlehorse people are unnecessarily paranoid about somethings, and clueless about other.

At the WIHS exhibition last year, some of the Saddle horse volunteers were upset because the jumbotron showed a close up of the walk-trot horses’ feet. They were sure the intent was to show the world the heavy shoes and embaress the breed. The reality is they did a close of the trot because it was a cool picture. They did the same thing later with the dressage horse. With the footing in the area, you couldn’t tell how long the foot was. I have seen several articles suggesting that we rename chains, stretchies, shackles, etc with kinder, gentler names so as to not put off those unfamiliar with the equipment. At WIHS, another saddlebred person had a small coniption about having a tail set crupper and old rattlers in the display of vintage equipment. Why? There is nothing abusive about a tail set or rattlers.

I’ve kept saddlebreds in an assortment of barns as an AOT, and never had any problems using any specialized training equipment, including chains, stretchies, running W’s and a tail set. I get more questions over the jowl sweat, which everyone assumes is for cribbing. I had a girl with hunters contemplating using chains to get her horses’ back ends under them.

What I think we should be concerned or embarrassed about is all of the weight that is being put on futurity colts. Other than trying to make sure you can win or to correct a defect, there is usually not a good reason for putting shoes of any kind on a weanling. This practice does expose the breed to valid criticism from animal protection groups, and possibly the USDA. The ASHA should change the rules and prohibit shoes or pads on weanlings. Rethinking futurities as a whole probably wouldn’t be a bad idea either.

As a group, we are continually apologizing for shoes, training methods, and tail sets. We give the impression that there we are hiding or sugar coating things, when there is nothing to apologize for. This gives animal protection and rights groups a leg up. This institutional paranoia seems to be more prevalent among those who patronize smaller open shows, which is especially bad, since they have more interaction with other breeds. You have a saddlebred, think like the peacock your horse is, and hold your head up high.

]]> By: Peggy http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-327 Peggy Tue, 05 May 2009 20:29:10 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-327 Hi, I have to agree with Mr Ruxor. I've been around this breed for over 20 years and I'm seeing more flash from the younger horses, but I can't help but wonder where is the common sense? Trainers need to allow them to mature both physically and mentally, you can't rush a living creature without someone suffering in the end. We are all under the gun with PETA, HSUS and the other Animal Rights groups, they are watching. If we don't take control ourselves with the overtraining/undertraining of our horses, then we will have to deal with them. Thanks for speaking out. A good horse doesn't happen in a day, a month or a year, but rather a over a lifetime. Hi,
I have to agree with Mr Ruxor. I’ve been around this breed for over 20 years and I’m seeing more flash from the younger horses, but I can’t help but wonder where is the common sense? Trainers need to allow them to mature both physically and mentally, you can’t rush a living creature without someone suffering in the end.
We are all under the gun with PETA, HSUS and the other Animal Rights groups, they are watching. If we don’t take control ourselves with the overtraining/undertraining of our horses, then we will have to deal with them. Thanks for speaking out. A good horse doesn’t happen in a day, a month or a year, but rather a over a lifetime.

]]> By: Ann http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-315 Ann Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:13:03 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-315 These are great thoughts, but still doesn't seem to address the fact the Saddlebred/saddleseat market has a failed business model. For the last 25 years that I have been around Saddlebreds, and likely longer than that, the push has been to bring in junior exhibitors. The idea being that the saddlebred is a family horse, and by bringing in new riders as kids, they will shun other breeds and styles of riding. These kids grow up, keep the horses and then get more for their kids. This sounds great on paper, but has anyone else noticed that we have been doing this for 25 years and haven't seen an increase in sales? Show horses today are over-trained when compared to the show horses of 20, 30 or 40 years ago, so making them stand to get on is not the answer. Perhaps instead of changing the horse to meet the needs of our target audience, we change the target audience to meet the needs of the horse? What if we don't try and pull junior exhibitors into the fold, but focus on adults? We bring adults in, and they bring in their kids or grand kids after the grown-ups are hooked. We all know the world has changed since the heyday of the saddlebred in the 50s and 60s. People are generally more safety conscious and risk averse in their daily life. However, as kids have been forced to wear more and more protective gear, "extreme" sports have been born. Base jumping, bungee jumping, body boarding, kite surfing, Snowboarding, have grown out of a need for an adrenalin rush that one doesn't get in more traditional sports. Why can't we translate this to horses? The pony hunter is bike ridden around the block, while the saddlebred is the mountain bike/motorcross. The saddlebred is the whitewater canoe to the quarter horse's paddle boat? Sell the thrill of being on a sort-of-broke horse. A doable version of bull or bronc riding. Sell the challenge. Seek the bungee jumpers instead of the soccer moms. I have a saddlebred because I can't stand the "warm&fuzzy" emotional bonding at the local boarding stables. Many, many people are competive and most of them are successful enough in their professional lives to be able to afford a show horse. That competitive nature does not get turned off at the barn door. If they don't get a blue ribbon at a saddlebred show, they will go to another one. These are great thoughts, but still doesn’t seem to address the fact the Saddlebred/saddleseat market has a failed business model. For the last 25 years that I have been around Saddlebreds, and likely longer than that, the push has been to bring in junior exhibitors. The idea being that the saddlebred is a family horse, and by bringing in new riders as kids, they will shun other breeds and styles of riding. These kids grow up, keep the horses and then get more for their kids. This sounds great on paper, but has anyone else noticed that we have been doing this for 25 years and haven’t seen an increase in sales? Show horses today are over-trained when compared to the show horses of 20, 30 or 40 years ago, so making them stand to get on is not the answer.
Perhaps instead of changing the horse to meet the needs of our target audience, we change the target audience to meet the needs of the horse? What if we don’t try and pull junior exhibitors into the fold, but focus on adults? We bring adults in, and they bring in their kids or grand kids after the grown-ups are hooked.
We all know the world has changed since the heyday of the saddlebred in the 50s and 60s. People are generally more safety conscious and risk averse in their daily life. However, as kids have been forced to wear more and more protective gear, “extreme” sports have been born. Base jumping, bungee jumping, body boarding, kite surfing, Snowboarding, have grown out of a need for an adrenalin rush that one doesn’t get in more traditional sports. Why can’t we translate this to horses? The pony hunter is bike ridden around the block, while the saddlebred is the mountain bike/motorcross. The saddlebred is the whitewater canoe to the quarter horse’s paddle boat? Sell the thrill of being on a sort-of-broke horse. A doable version of bull or bronc riding. Sell the challenge. Seek the bungee jumpers instead of the soccer moms.
I have a saddlebred because I can’t stand the “warm&fuzzy” emotional bonding at the local boarding stables. Many, many people are competive and most of them are successful enough in their professional lives to be able to afford a show horse. That competitive nature does not get turned off at the barn door. If they don’t get a blue ribbon at a saddlebred show, they will go to another one.

]]> By: Jennifer http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-282 Jennifer Tue, 21 Apr 2009 01:58:06 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-282 Love your article!! I to have taken myself out of the saddlebred shows, because of the judging not actually being judged on what it should anymore. Especially in the pleasure classes, flat walk means flat walk!! Who calls the shots?? Enough is enough, we have park horses in show pleasure, we have country pleasure horses getting there pads taken off at the shows! Even if you do let your young ones grow you will always be a step behind when you finally do take them to the show ring. Until they can't walk anymore from being started so young. I truly hope your article goes all over the saddlebred world and something is done about it. Then maybe one day I could get off the b circuits and take my horses back to the classes they belong in, with a fighting chance!! Love your article!! I to have taken myself out of the saddlebred shows, because of the judging not actually being judged on what it should anymore. Especially in the pleasure classes, flat walk means flat walk!! Who calls the shots?? Enough is enough, we have park horses in show pleasure, we have country pleasure horses getting there pads taken off at the shows! Even if you do let your young ones grow you will always be a step behind when you finally do take them to the show ring. Until they can’t walk anymore from being started so young. I truly hope your article goes all over the saddlebred world and something is done about it. Then maybe one day I could get off the b circuits and take my horses back to the classes they belong in, with a fighting chance!!

]]> By: Lynne http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-205 Lynne Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:34:48 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-205 One thing nobody wants to talk about is the fact that many (not all) trainers today purposefully do not foster an emotional bond between their clients and the horses because the trainers do not want the client to become so attached to a particular horse that it would impede sales. Trainers want that commission. So- what else is there to foster in a client except the prospect of winning a blue ribbon or looking at the horse as a "financial investment" (which is not going to work anymore anyway). If your goal then is to win blue ribbons or increase the potential of financial gain, then the trainer must use more "smoke and mirrors" to get the horse to look as if it is "improving" faster. Of course, this isn't good in the long term and you end up with unhappy and unsound horses that misbehave in public and make us all look bad. But, hey, then it is time to sell that horse and get a new one! This is short-sighted. Other breeds and disciplines have shown that by including the client more in the care and training of the horse, making it personal to them, and fostering an emotional bond builds loyalty to the horse, the breed and the trainer. When times get tough it is much harder to leave the horse you love than the vehicle to a blue ribbon or the bad investment. One thing nobody wants to talk about is the fact that many (not all) trainers today purposefully do not foster an emotional bond between their clients and the horses because the trainers do not want the client to become so attached to a particular horse that it would impede sales. Trainers want that commission. So- what else is there to foster in a client except the prospect of winning a blue ribbon or looking at the horse as a “financial investment” (which is not going to work anymore anyway). If your goal then is to win blue ribbons or increase the potential of financial gain, then the trainer must use more “smoke and mirrors” to get the horse to look as if it is “improving” faster. Of course, this isn’t good in the long term and you end up with unhappy and unsound horses that misbehave in public and make us all look bad. But, hey, then it is time to sell that horse and get a new one! This is short-sighted. Other breeds and disciplines have shown that by including the client more in the care and training of the horse, making it personal to them, and fostering an emotional bond builds loyalty to the horse, the breed and the trainer. When times get tough it is much harder to leave the horse you love than the vehicle to a blue ribbon or the bad investment.

]]> By: Nancy http://trot.org/2008/12/31/far-sighted-thoughts-by-a-near-sighted-horseman/comment-page-1/#comment-150 Nancy Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:36:13 +0000 http://www.trot.org/WP2/?p=90#comment-150 Thank you for your frank and honest appraisal of the state of our industry. Having been in this business for 40 years, I have observed and experienced exactly what you have described. I agree with you 100%. Thank you for your frank and honest appraisal of the state of our industry. Having been in this business for 40 years, I have observed and experienced exactly what you have described. I agree with you 100%.

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